MID Sleeves

[Blueoval77]

No its not FE but it is atleast CJ related . I recall someone here asking about the new Darton MID sleeve system and I just got this for a 2012 CJ I am doing . I will say one thing . a ton of work to get these in this thing and probably a little dodgy on seal...

[pbf777]

    Yep, to much work, and the customer isn't going to provide the monetary compensation to make it worth it from a good business practice (but then what's new about that!       ); and when your done, what have you got?  Just look at what's left of the block from the O.E.s engineering for any strength after the machining required before the sleeve insertions; and they don't provide a supplemental solution.       

     And yes, liquid sealing on the deck often proves difficult if not to the point of anticipated and just accepted.     

     Scott.

[Blueoval77]

All true . In this instance it is giving you Cubic inch that you couldnt otherwise get with this block . Will it survive some beating ? Clearly it lost one battle already as I have to replace one sleeve or bore it to its max  . I cant blame whatever failure it had on the sleeve system as it appears to have had piston/rod failure . I am going to force 1500 HP through it with a  big whipple so I guess we shall see what happens then.
How this relates to FE and the questions that had been asked is this as far as I am concerned. This setup in this very small block was roughly 5 K to just get to a point where you have 8 sleeves in a block that were sealed up and decked. For 5 K you can buy some very nice FE blocks that will house plenty of CI .
Dont see it ever happening ...

[TomP]

I guess all the fast factory stock racers all bore the blocks the allowable .080" over? Since the latest 327" ones are already 3.70" is that block close to 3.78"?

[Blueoval77]

Piston/ring availability is going to dictate that but yeah , thats where its headed.

[machoneman]

Saw the MID sleeves some years ago and thought (for a minute) it was a great idea. Then, nothing about them for some years.

Methinks this would work with an in-line 4 banger block; not so good with a V-6, V-8 engine. Even then, I've heard aftermarket 4-banger blocks are now available for the most popular Japanese/Korean engine types; they must be way cheaper than the MID sleeve conversion however.   

[Blueoval77]

I mean , after you have done it and they are in there and you recovered . I guess its nice in some ways. Sleeve comes out with a slide hammer and just gets shoved back in and decked off if you have an issue in a hole .
Having been into the modular thing for a while now it has just sucked that you were stuck with what you had and .020 and some argue a .040 over bore. I dont want to bash the thing too hard before I find out if it lives . If they live then I guess it is a good answer for certain folks in certain engines...
If the system does indeed live and at some point the machining and the price tag comes down it would be an answer for all these worn out 427 blocks . But they would have to come way down to rule out just buying one of the available blocks out there that you know will live.
Someone would have to write the code for doing a 427 and its all gravy after that.

[pbf777]

Methinks this would work with an in-line 4 banger block; not so good with a v-6, V-8 engine.

     There are many of the same pitfalls as as far as the sleeve and the sleeveing execution a V8 is just two banks of a "4-banger".  And the import guys have experienced the same issues in service leading to for example filling in the voids in the deck to strengthen the block, better stabilization of the sleeves from movement (shake!      ), but still even notable loss of support of the crankshaft in the lower section is experienced.     

     This process is truly of what one would call "patch-work-engineering"!   Well,.........It sorta works!     

     Scott.

[GerryP]

I think I'd bore out the cylinders and furnace braze sleeves in there.  A lot of work, but so is the MID.

[Blueoval77]

If I was in love with a specific 427 for some reason (Vin related or whatever) all sorts of ideas come to mind if a sleeve package such as this became available and most of them involve a welder of some sort..

[pbf777]

I think I'd bore out the cylinders and furnace braze sleeves in there. 

     Is there someone setup and willing (at something monetarily reasonable) to do this work, that has experience specifically of this nature, that someone knows of?     

     Scott.

[GerryP]

     Is there someone setup and willing (at something monetarily reasonable) to do this work, that has experience specifically of this nature, that someone knows of?     

     Scott.

You make it sound like voodoo.  I'm sure there are some Detroit area shops who recall this being pretty common in the 351C Pro Stock days.  I don't know what you consider reasonable.  I mean, it's not like MID is the budget option for engine builders.

[pbf777]

You make it sound like voodoo.

     Well no,  but if your familiar with what is required to acquire the hoped for outcome it is something that one is going to have to develop ones' technique somewhat, as were not taking about sweating two pieces of plumping pipe together here.  And although I'm well aware of the practice for the 351C blocks "back in the day" I,m not sure I would label it as ever really being a "common" practice, not to mention what decade was that?  Somehow I'm afraid those who were capable then, aren't available to do it today.     

     And the statement of "reasonable" is to avoid the thought that anything can be accomplished if one just throws enough money at it, but obviously there are new production components available for a sum, but then there may be instances where something old proves to some degree "irreplaceable" and really needs to be repaired, but still there is always a limit in value, so no, I don't have a "number" for what it would be worth, as even each instance would prove unique, but I just chose to start the conversation with being "reasonable".

     So, how about:  Does anyone know of anyone experienced in this process, capable and willing do this type of work, that being with a "reasonable" degree of prior success?   

     Scott.

     

[Blueoval77]

Actually , I would say there is quite a bit of voodoo in this to be done properly and as someone mentioned . The group that would have done this in years gone by and done it well by hand are all but gone or sitting on a beach just happy to be done with the whole game.
Screw this up just the smallest amount and its junk (Some could argue its junk anyway if done right) . On these mod motors or ricers or whatever you say NEXT and move on . But the relevance of this in the FE world would be to save something that there is only one of . Not that I am in that crowd but that crowd does exist.
The voodoo would be in the guy that writes the code for the machine to do its work... And lets face it . to make an omelett you gotta break some eggs.