Author Topic: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build  (Read 3929 times)

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410bruce

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351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« on: January 06, 2021, 11:14:56 AM »
 Starting new from the 400 horsepower 5.0 thread.

In this thread I will document the gathering of parts and assembly of a 408 stroker 351C. This engine is destined for my 1967 Cougar. It will have a Toploader 4-speed behind it.
This will be a pump gas friendly street engine but I would like it to be a fairly rowdy street engine. :D

Okay, so here we go.

Took my bare closed chamber 4V heads to my machinest and glass beaded them, then he magged them, which they passed with flying colors.
One of the heads has considerable rust pitting in the seats so will definitely need seats installed. Will do up both heads exactly the same. That same head has bad pitting on the deck surface as well. The other one has been repaired between two adjoining chambers with brass I believe. Very nice job but a few pits my machinest is concerned about. We'll see how it goes.

Bought the block from him as well. We need to dig it out of his "cylinder block shed" and have a close look at it. Will need to determine at what bore it will clean up. Once that's done, I plan to purchase the stroker kit from Brent.

Now, on cylinder heads. I've always heard the closed chamber heads were the ones to have, not only because of easy increases of compression but also they don't ping like the open chamber heads do. Is it true the open chamber heads are detonation prone? Or is that largely an overblown deal? Is there any advantage the open chambers have over the closed?

blykins

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 11:25:18 AM »
A tighter quench works the same with a Cleveland head as it does with others.   The open chamber head isn't really a slouch, but it will sometimes take >40° total timing, kinda like some of the factory FE heads.  The quench Cleveland heads are noticeably better. 

This is how good the factory heads are without a port job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpAUnqZmKw
Brent Lykins
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410bruce

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2021, 11:44:45 AM »
A tighter quench works the same with a Cleveland head as it does with others.   The open chamber head isn't really a slouch, but it will sometimes take >40° total timing, kinda like some of the factory FE heads.  The quench Cleveland heads are noticeably better. 

This is how good the factory heads are without a port job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpAUnqZmKw
Sweet! Thanks for posting that up, Brent. That thing sounds awesome!

blykins

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2021, 11:58:12 AM »
A tighter quench works the same with a Cleveland head as it does with others.   The open chamber head isn't really a slouch, but it will sometimes take >40° total timing, kinda like some of the factory FE heads.  The quench Cleveland heads are noticeably better. 

This is how good the factory heads are without a port job:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpAUnqZmKw
Sweet! Thanks for posting that up, Brent. That thing sounds awesome!

Yep, and someone show me a factory unported head SBC 350 making 620 hp.....
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

gt350hr

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2021, 12:05:45 PM »
    Bruce,
     30 plus years ago ( when we were still using heavily machined 400 cranks) I built a "street 408" for a guy with a Pantera using a regular hydraulic lifter cam , quench heads , flat top piston ( looking back too much compression for 91 octane) and a Holley Strip Dominator and 850 DP carb. It was an animal to say the least. It would pull OVER 6,000 in 5th gear in his Pantera which caused the car to "lift" dangerously at 150+MPH . At the time guys were using 351s and 377s that turned 7,000+ rpms to make power. My "tractor" ( 6,000 rpm shift points) spanked them hard and the stealth nature of the engine had them suspecting Nitrous being used . We weren't. Don't worry about a 1.5 rod to stroke ratio , but make SURE you sonic check the block for core shift. I did. I see 500 hp easily with a cam from Brent. That is very important.
   Randy
   

410bruce

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2021, 07:20:48 PM »
Right on, Randy. Cool story.  8)
I was involved with circle track racing in the '80s with a friend who ran the only Ford in his class. He ran a shortened '72 Gran Torino with a Cleveland. It was a 2 barrel class so the 4V heads weren't necessarily a benefit. He set a track record in that car and ended up winning the track championship as well. One Ford in a sea of Chevies.
He ended up doing a 351W with a machined to fit 400M crankshaft and 2V closed chamber Australian heads. The track officials made him ditch the heads because they weren't sold in the USA on a production car. They were trying anything they could to slow him down. So, went to regular old 2V Cleveland open chamber heads and milled the poop out of them. He ran just as fast. That car was dialed. He could pass on the OUTSIDE in the turns.
The other guys all thought we were cheating. There was just NO WAY that effin' Ford could run that hard and beat them all. lol.
Those were some fun times.

pbf777

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 08:47:52 PM »
     The 351C is probably my favorite overall "Small-Block" American V8 engine for performance oriented intentions. Like any others, no one execution is perfect as all have their failures of engineering, but none are going to provide the performance from O.E.M components as is the Cleveland.

     As with Randys' description, before all of the "chinese" cranks, fitting the 400 crankshaft for a stroker was somewhat popular (thank goodness we don't have to do that any more!, and also more common with 351W block usage), but in the more expensive billet installations and with the advent of the "cheap" import cranks, in the instances were one didn't really want a "tractor" motor, I have preferred to use something in the range of a 3.75" - 3.85" stroke (with a 6.125" rod length giving a piston compression height of 1.2" - 1.15" and a rod to stroke ratio of 1.63 - 1.59 respectively +/-) as this seems to provide a good balance with the big port 4V heads and a greater (safer) dynamic R.P.M. range versus something of 4".  But of course the longer stroke does provide a greater opportunity for the production of "tire-ripping" wheel-spin, particularly with an automatic transmission; so this is what I might (and have) recommend for the "hot-rod" installations.       ;)

     And speaking of "back-in-the-day" we also use to offset cut the O.E.M. 351C cranks down to a 2.100" or even 2.00" Chevy journal to get say .100" or .150" stoke increase, stuck a 6" Chevy rod (remember, no flood of china stuff yet!), and then shortened the tops of the TRW pistons to set the deck height, and of course fly-cutting valve reliefs and reshaping the piston dome if applicable, and there was still material remaining that allowed additional lighting mill work under the domes (those TRW's were thick in the roof!).  What a pain in the arse! 

     And then, there was the "fitting" of the 351M/400 rods into 351W for a "long-rod" option!     :o

     But, that was the good ol' days!  RIGHT!      ::)

     Scott.

     

Falcon67

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2021, 11:34:57 AM »
The C is my favorite - but currently walking away from it in the race cars.  I ran a 393C, flat top, 12:1, 3.85 arm, 6" rod. Used AFD 4V heads, untouched - just put the valves in.  They flow a little better, and certainly have a better chamber, than the 4V iron stuffed heads I have.  26 degrees of timing with a Lykins custom solid roller, 750DP, Funnelweb intake - made around 575+ on methanol.  Until the block broke.  We're going back with a 4.125 Dart "W" type block, 9.2 deck, 4" steel crank and new pistons for 427 CID.  Should last a lot longer than three years. 

For a street car, the HP figures are good for car shows and bench racing.  If you plan to race one, get an aftermarket block.  Once you take a stocker 302/351C/etc past around 500 HP you are on borrowed time.  And 351C blocks were only made from 1970-74, so that's 46 years out of production.  I have one 4 bolt std bore block left.  If I use that, no more.  Takes a good kit to stroke a 351C.  For a W, a 9.5 deck 351W can use a 3.85 crank, a 351w rod and a 302 piston to make 393 CID.  Pretty easy and cheap for a street brawler. 

410bruce

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2021, 06:50:23 PM »
Well, the block was a bust. My machinest--his name is Mark, so I will address him as such from here on out--cleaned the block and ran a ball hone down the cylinders. It has some pretty aggressive rust pitting plus, when he cleaned it, there was an excessive amount of rust scale coming out of the water jackets. He advised me against using it. That's a good friend there. Even though it means losing money on his end, he steered me away from his block. He wants me to have the best foundation possible to start with.
He really wants me to find another set of heads as well.

So, being a machinest, he knows a lot of motor heads and told me of a friend of his who is a Cleveland guy and may have a block and possibly heads he'd turn loose of. He called the gentleman while I was there and he does indeed have parts he would sell.
He has a complete shortblock that has been taking up space under his bench and a couple sets of closed chamber heads.
He's going to bring the shortblock and both sets of heads to Mark tomorrow so we can have a look see. He's bringing both sets of heads to let me pick out which ones I want. Pretty cool.

I'll get back here after the meeting. Hopefully these will be some good, usable parts.

Barry_R

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 02:00:00 PM »
We have done a few stroker Clevelands.  They all ran really. really strong.  The coolest one is all aluminum - might be the only running Butterworth block - that is 412 cubic inches.  Has a set of Scott Cook (Australia) CNC heads and make just a kiss under 600 HP at 6500.  Pump gas and 236@.050 hydraulic roller - idles at 750 with almost no rumble

gt350hr

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2021, 02:29:51 PM »
   Bruce ,
         Sonic check the block. I had a 2 bolt block that was safe at 4.100. Basically zero core shift on it . Others were scary at 4.030. You might be lucky. Remember pistons can be made in any bore size now days.

Heo

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2021, 03:17:43 PM »
We are building a 400 for the stepson out of a low milage
400 i had in the barn. Have been waiting for pistons almost six months
but now we have them and block is back from the macine shop
for now we are using the 2v heads that was on the engine with a light
portjob and a good seat job.  just a performer intake and a hydraulic flat tappet
But i think that will outperform his 289 anyway :)
Im trying to find a set of 4V CC heads and a tunnel ram but no luck yet



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pbf777

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2021, 05:59:26 PM »
    The big port 4V heads work great on the 400 as the cubes eat up the otherwise oversized port area.   

    Tunnel-Ram for the 400?  Will need spacers!       :)

    Scott.

Heo

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2021, 06:36:47 PM »
    The big port 4V heads work great on the 400 as the cubes eat up the otherwise oversized port area.   

    Tunnel-Ram for the 400?  Will need spacers!       :)

    Scott.
I know, needs spacers for almost anything but the performer not many aftermarket intakes
for a 400



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410bruce

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Re: 351 Cleveland Stroker Build
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2021, 06:45:07 PM »
Appreciate the input, guys.
So what would a standard bore (you can still see some hone marks, evidently) shortblock and nice set of 4V closed chamber heads be valued at? Somewhere where it would be a fair deal for the buyer and seller?