Author Topic: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?  (Read 8886 times)

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cleandan

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2020, 02:42:14 PM »
427HISS; There is a lot to consider when talking about this subject. One major thing to keep in mind is the difference between lab findings, and real world engine conditions. First, let us assume all parts of the ignition system are operating properly.

Considering the new rare earth metals used in electrode tips...YES, they do last longer than standard metal tips...but does that matter in an FE powered vehicle? I don't think so.

A few parameters a spark plug must meet are, correct heat range, correct spark gap, the ability to thread in and fit the hole as intended, the ability to arrest the spark energy and channel it to the plug gap only, and the ability to properly hold the spark plug wire...The rest is some sort of add on.

An Autolite 45 is a pretty standard plug for FE engines, and has been around for a long, long time. This plug will function properly if it is the correct heat range for the tune of the engine as well as having the correct gap. In a points style system it will easily go 30,000 miles, and in a more modern system it will easily go 50,000 miles.

But, at less than $30 for a set of 8 plugs it really does not matter because they are cheap to replace if something goes wrong.

The V-plugs, and other poly-electrode styles do offer some benefits, but only in terms of more sharp, conductive areas for the spark to jump across.
The electrical properties of the spark are limited to the physics of electricity.
This means the spark will jump the gap of least resistance.

When the single electrode plug begins to wear, the spark must work a bit harder to jump the growing gap. Until the gap becomes more resistive than other conductive gaps, the spark will continue to jump that gap...right up to misfire conditions.

The poly-electrode plugs do provide multiple areas for the spark to arc across, but they do not provide an "easier" area for the spark to arc across until the easiest area wears to the point the spark arc begins using a different gap area than the now worn and harder to jump gap occurs.

In effect, the poly-electrode plugs provide more wear surfaces as compared to a single electrode plug. All else is equivalent when the system parameters are taken into consideration.
The Autolite 45, when gapped correctly and in good condition, will provide the same spark, across the same .040" gap, as any other quality conductor capable of handling the power of the system.

The poly-electrode plugs do provide a "better" life in systems, or uses, that tend to burn electrodes quickly simply because they literally have more electrodes to burn down before the plug begins to misfire.

This same principle occurs in the rare metal tipped plugs. The tips simply last longer and therefore maintain the proper gap longer...but they do not provide a better spark across a given gap.

The rare earth metal tipped plugs do present a potential to lose the tip...They are affixed in some manner so they will come off at some point. This VERY hard tip now must travel through the system until ejected out the exhaust, or becoming lodged into some portion of the engine where it finally resides.

My findings concerning spark plugs are this.
1) The plug must be constructed properly, Good threads, good seal washer if required, good porcelain (resistor/insulator) good conductor and connection to the plug wire tip, electrodes that maintain the set gap, proper length of plug body into combustion chamber for the application.

The rest, while verifiable in the lab, probably does not result in increased performance with normal engine use.

Last is the general use of most FE engine these days. While many FE's now reside in nice cars and trucks and boats, few of them see daily use and high miles each year...Many don't see 3,000 miles per year.
This means a lowly 30,000 mile lifespan spark plug will probably last 8-10 years in most instances when screwed into an FE engine these days.

Find a spark plug you like, understand, and have verified as a working heat range for your engine tune and let the rest work itself out.

If there is one thing I have verified over the decades in terms of spark plugs it is this.
I have never, ever, had a properly sized, name brand, spark plug NOT work properly without a good reason.
That reason is usually a physical defect in the plug, some issue with the ignition system of the engine, a poor tune, or some variation of all of these...but never has the plug itself been the problem.

Champion, Autolite, Motorcraft, NGK, Bosch, AC Delco, Denso, they all work well when applied, gapped, and installed correctly.

RJP

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2020, 02:46:56 PM »
Not to open up a can of worms, but indexing on old vintage engines where the sparkplug is not ideally placed, poor combustion chamber design will make a difference.  On the newer combustion chambers with the plug placed near center, or aimed toward the exhaust valve, no difference.  I did several tests on my EMC engines, and did not find any help with power due to good chamber design.  Joe-JDC
To expand a bit on plug indexing, in the early/mid 60s it was done only for the ground electrode to clear large dome high compression pistons such as on SBCs. It was one of those "magic speed tricks" where racers saw it done on good running race cars and thought it was new found horsepower because the winners were doing it so they need to as well. Joe, I never heard it even helped lousy combustion chambers. How much hp did you see by indexing plugs with poor combustion chambers?

Joe-JDC

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2020, 03:52:32 PM »
Nothing conclusive, but 3-7 hp seems to be about all we could verify.  A fresh change of oil, and a fresh set of plugs, and everything was a wash.  BTW, oil does degrade with dyno testing very fast.  Dyno mules that see over 75 dyno pulls, should change the oil and filter as maintenance.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

cammerfe

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2020, 10:24:08 PM »
For what it's worth, many moons ago I spent a season 'wrenching' a Thunderbolt with The Corrunker Brothers. At the time we were using Champion plugs and Champion was happy to give us a case of plugs any time we asked. The plugs were good for one pass, and had to be changed every time we got a timing slip. I believe running the engine on the return road was causing the fouling---leading to a slight miss on the next pass.

I was the one who did the changing, and still have marks on my arms and hands from coming in contact with hot headers. (The marks are hard to see after this many years!)
 

We discovered that using Autolite plugs made changes much less necessary. They'd last for a whole day of racing. But in order to be given a case of Autolites, we had to bust the porcelain out of the shell, and turn the shell in. I discovered that putting the plug in a vise and smacking the upper end hard with a hammer would do the trick.

I once tried to wrap wet rags around my arms for protection, but then I got blisters from the suddenly-boiling water in the rags. :o

KS
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 10:27:15 PM by cammerfe »

Cyclone03

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2020, 08:46:39 AM »
Indexing plugs is a time consuming task.
I’m sure JDC know the guys in San Antonio with real BOSS 302’s one of them owned a shop with the nastiest BOSS I’d ever heard,I worked for him, and BTW just saw him at COTA yesterday.
He asked one of the other wrench’s to change the plugs in the car for one reason or another, engine fired then would not idle... the pop up pistons closed the gaps on 5 cylinders.

At the time we didn’t have any index washers on hand and didn’t have time to get them,but we did have about 30 more plugs. I pulled each plug and marked the electrodes then reinstalled the ones that didn’t hit, noted my mark and one by one duplicated the mark location on the holes with bad plug. Ended up with 2 sets marked with which cylinder they fit...not hard just a lot of time.

Meanwhile flash forward 20 or so years,another friend with a BOSS headed R block who vintage races just uses the non projected tip,side gapped off the shelf race Autolites ,we just stick them in and run 7500rpm all day...until the oil pump lockedup. But that’s another story.
Lance H

gt350hr

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2020, 11:58:30 AM »
   I used an indexing tool to check all new plugs I got. I would note the clocking on the box by letter , A-L . Then I would check each cylinder to see which hole liked what letter. Keeping a log of that made plug changes a snap and "worry free" regardless of who did it. Say one cylinder was "perfect" with a "D" letter plug. In a pinch you could use a C or an E if you were short on Ds. I too did it for dome clearance. Nascar builders always index plugs fro power reasons as they don't have domes to interfere with.

mike7570

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2020, 04:41:13 PM »
For what it's worth, many moons ago I spent a season 'wrenching' a Thunderbolt with The Corrunker Brothers. At the time we were using Champion plugs and Champion was happy to give us a case of plugs any time we asked. The plugs were good for one pass, and had to be changed every time we got a timing slip. I believe running the engine on the return road was causing the fouling---leading to a slight miss on the next pass.

I was the one who did the changing, and still have marks on my arms and hands from coming in contact with hot headers. (The marks are hard to see after this many years!)
 

We discovered that using Autolite plugs made changes much less necessary. They'd last for a whole day of racing. But in order to be given a case of Autolites, we had to bust the porcelain out of the shell, and turn the shell in. I discovered that putting the plug in a vise and smacking the upper end hard with a hammer would do the trick.




I once tried to wrap wet rags around my arms for protection, but then I got blisters from the suddenly-boiling water in the rags. :o




KS


When I started racing with my tunnel port I found the exact same thing. The Champions were only good for about 1 pass, switching to Autolites made a big difference
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 04:42:56 PM by mike7570 »

cammerfe

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2020, 10:53:06 PM »
I didn't mention it above, but we went to a TP during that year, as well. If I remember correctly, we'd gone to the TP by the time we switched to Autolites. :)

KS

GerryP

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2020, 08:26:49 AM »
For what it's worth, many moons ago I spent a season 'wrenching' a Thunderbolt with The Corrunker Brothers. At the time we were using Champion plugs and Champion was happy to give us a case of plugs any time we asked. The plugs were good for one pass, and had to be changed every time we got a timing slip. I believe running the engine on the return road was causing the fouling---leading to a slight miss on the next pass....

Just thinking out loud here, but if the Champion plugs were loading up, was it a heat range issue?  Plug tip projection?  I have experienced a similar outcome with a Mopar and in this case, the Champion plug was that engine's Huckleberry.  This engine would load up on only the front cylinders, which I attributed to those cylinders getting the cooler water.  But the head would have been getting the hotter water.  So, I reasoned that due to the colder cylinder wall, the fuel vaporization was insufficient for combustion consistency and was wetting the plug.  I never experimented to find if I could fix the issue by juggling heat ranges, but I am curious if a different plug in those two cylinders would have worked.

Falcon67

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2020, 12:26:23 PM »
I use AUtolite or Motorcraft in the door car because of the stock iron heads, NGK in the dragster because they fit the heads with the proper reach/gasket and have the heat range needed.  I don't index, ain't nobody got time for that.

DubyaTF

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2020, 02:09:07 PM »
For what it's worth, many moons ago I spent a season 'wrenching' a Thunderbolt with The Corrunker Brothers. At the time we were using Champion plugs and Champion was happy to give us a case of plugs any time we asked. The plugs were good for one pass, and had to be changed every time we got a timing slip. I believe running the engine on the return road was causing the fouling---leading to a slight miss on the next pass....

Just thinking out loud here, but if the Champion plugs were loading up, was it a heat range issue?  Plug tip projection?  I have experienced a similar outcome with a Mopar and in this case, the Champion plug was that engine's Huckleberry.  This engine would load up on only the front cylinders, which I attributed to those cylinders getting the cooler water.  But the head would have been getting the hotter water.  So, I reasoned that due to the colder cylinder wall, the fuel vaporization was insufficient for combustion consistency and was wetting the plug.  I never experimented to find if I could fix the issue by juggling heat ranges, but I am curious if a different plug in those two cylinders would have worked.

I had the same kind of question- how can I tell if it's a tuning issue or a heat range change that's needed? Also, would running mixed heat ranges be a problem over time?
Jeff

cammerfe

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2020, 10:52:50 PM »
We never questioned the 'why'. The Autolite guy was nearby at about the time we were getting to the bottom of a case of Champions and he was happy to give us a box of his---with the proviso that to get more we'd have to save the shells instead of simply throwing them away. I'm sure we tried both BF22s and BTF1s at one time or another, but the memory is hazy as to what worked best. At a guess they were likely BF22s.

KS

Keith Stevens

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2020, 12:43:45 AM »

Royce Peterson? recognize that name ??? is it the guy with the bigfoot movie from the 60s?

Royce is a well-known Cougar expert, especially for GTE's and CJ cars.  He used to post a lot on the old Forum.  Every once in awhile Royce will pop up over there again.  He's very knowledgeable, but can be quite prickly when somebody brings up a controversial idea.  Royce would famously pop up if someone mentioned a factory W-code Mustang sighting.  "There were NO 427 Mustangs factory produced - EVER!!!  Only the Cougar GTE got a 427 in 1968!!!"I could see Royce coming down hard against newfangled spark plugs or miracle oil additives.  "It's all bunk!  It'll never work!"  Makes me chuckle.

Peter.. Good name for the self-proclaimed know-it-all.   He gets really nasty when you prove him wrong.  There are no W code mustangs, period.  Many discussions over the years. Kevin Marti also confirmed.  Until the Ford records became available there were a few faked W codes.  We even had a M code fake Fairlane show up. No cammers in any street car from Ford either.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 12:07:52 PM by Keith Stevens »

wowens

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2020, 05:58:49 AM »
We never questioned the 'why'. The Autolite guy was nearby at about the time we were getting to the bottom of a case of Champions and he was happy to give us a box of his---with the proviso that to get more we'd have to save the shells instead of simply throwing them away. I'm sure we tried both BF22s and BTF1s at one time or another, but the memory is hazy as to what worked best. At a guess they were likely BF22s.

KS
BF22 is what I used that worked best
Woody

blykins

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Re: Engine Builders- Testing Types And Brands Of Spark,Plugs ?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2020, 06:11:25 AM »
For what it's worth, many moons ago I spent a season 'wrenching' a Thunderbolt with The Corrunker Brothers. At the time we were using Champion plugs and Champion was happy to give us a case of plugs any time we asked. The plugs were good for one pass, and had to be changed every time we got a timing slip. I believe running the engine on the return road was causing the fouling---leading to a slight miss on the next pass....

Just thinking out loud here, but if the Champion plugs were loading up, was it a heat range issue?  Plug tip projection?  I have experienced a similar outcome with a Mopar and in this case, the Champion plug was that engine's Huckleberry.  This engine would load up on only the front cylinders, which I attributed to those cylinders getting the cooler water.  But the head would have been getting the hotter water.  So, I reasoned that due to the colder cylinder wall, the fuel vaporization was insufficient for combustion consistency and was wetting the plug.  I never experimented to find if I could fix the issue by juggling heat ranges, but I am curious if a different plug in those two cylinders would have worked.

I had the same kind of question- how can I tell if it's a tuning issue or a heat range change that's needed? Also, would running mixed heat ranges be a problem over time?

Too much heat or not enough heat will show up on the plug's threads. 

Also, if you have way too much heat, it will show up on the insulator and can turn it colors (i.e. green).
Brent Lykins
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