Author Topic: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners  (Read 3597 times)

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Diogenes

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Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« on: October 21, 2020, 05:31:01 PM »
I fell into a phenomenal deal over the weekend for my mild built 1966 390 Galaxie, a complete big in/big out toploader setup out of a 7 Litre. My 9in. has a 3.25 gear (I believe, will confirm soon). I'm looking for advice on ring and pinion and clutch selection. I cruise this car a lot, back country roads and highway speeds. I was assuming I'm going to need to change the rear gear, but I'm not certain. What experiences can those of you in the know share? I like "spirited driving", so off-line performance is fairly important. I've revisited an SLR discussion, but looking for Galaxie owner experiences--if possible.

It doesn't look like there are many clutch choices for the big in/big out.

Thank you....



« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 06:00:18 PM by Diogenes »
When criminals make the laws, obeying the law is a crime.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 C6 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
71 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
89 Texas DPS Police Mustang
71 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
68 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
89 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

gdaddy01

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2020, 07:55:05 PM »
with the high first gear in the trans , 2.32 and the fact you what to drive the car , I would go with something in the range of 3.50 to 3.73 with a 235-70-15 tire . I think that will put you about 2700 to 3000 rpm at 60 mph .

chilly460

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2020, 08:18:45 PM »
Not a toploader but I ran a T10 with the long first gear for a couple years in my '63 Merc.  I tried a 3.00 gear, fantastic once rolling but it wsa a real pain in traffic and just not much fun at all.  3.50s helped a bit, but really it still felt lazy to me and it really wasn't a long enough gear to run on the highway with modern traffic.  I went to 4.10s and finally it felt ok around town, but cruising was beyond awful.   I'd go 3.50s and stay off the interstate. 

bsprowl

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2020, 08:43:45 PM »
The 7 Litre came with a 3.25 ratio from the factory (as did the 390). It also had 38 more cubic inches.  The close ratio 2.32 first gear ratio is not your friend.  The 390 had a 2.78 first gear ratio. 

The difference is  0.46 and adding that to 3.25 gets you 3.71.  Common Ford ratios are 3.89 and 3.91.  Those ratios are not fun on the the interstate.




Nightmist66

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 08:45:05 PM »
I fell into a phenomenal deal over the weekend for my mild built 1966 390 Galaxie, a complete big in/big out toploader setup out of a 7 Litre. 

I like "spirited driving", so off-line performance is fairly important.


Just trying to clarify, is the new purchase a close ratio or are you swapping from a current close ratio to a wide?

From your comment of off the line performance, I would highly recommend starting with a wide ratio. I don't see any downside to them. Cruising will be the same either way, they're both 1:1 in 4th and 3rd gears are very close as well. It just comes down to tire size and gearing.... A 3.89 is a good "compromise" gear in my opinion. Just my 2ยข
Jared


66 Fairlane GT 390 .035 Over 390, Wide Ratio Top Loader, 9 inch, 4.71

427Fastback

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 08:56:02 PM »
Agreed.....Switch/convert the trans to a wide ratio and dont look back...I run W/ratio's in my stuff and every car i have built..Untill you get to 3.7's and higher the c/r is not your friend.

Its just math
2.78 x axle ratio
2.32 x axle ratio
1968 Mustang Fastback...427 MR 5spd (owned since 1977)
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1936 Diamond T 212BD
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cammerfe

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 10:00:34 PM »
Here's a point not mentioned above---and for all I know, material improvements over the past fifty plus years may have made it moot. I ordered my '64 Custom/427 with a 4.11 gear and it worked just fine. But in the early spring, (I got the car in February), we planned a trip from Michigan to Sebring for the 12 Hour Race. Even with the swapped-in 8.20X15 tires on the back, the 4.11 would have been too much of a buzz. I got a 3.50 'pig' and swapped it in. And since I only had a 90 day/3000 mile warranty, I wanted to save something for potential mishaps. I made up a chart of 4th gear engine speeds and car MPHs and then just plugged the speedo hole in the trans. The tach became my speedometer. 3000 RPM was just above 70 MPH, but we decided to fly and in every area we could get away with it, we were running better than 100 MPH as often as possible. This was before I-75 was finished so there were many stretches of two-lane. After the trip was complete, I left the 3.50 gear in the back for a period of time---and I had a clutch failure. Trying to launch a 4000+ pound car from stop lights with the combo of the 2.32 low in the trans with large diameter tires with that gear multiplication actually stripped the face off the disc on one side and I barely made it home.

I'd changed out the T-10 for a big in-'n'-out Toploader which necessitated a truck disc for the 11 1/2 inch clutch. The guys at Bill Brown Ford were willing to look out for me and replaced the disc. And they told me that the 3.50 gear was very hard on the disc. Having a face come off a disc was fairly common under the circumstances.

That was one of the reasons I traded the '64 to my Brother Lon and ordered a new '65 1/2 Mustang 'K' car. Within a few weeks, I'd removed the  back seat and put the Shelby deck in its place, replaced the Motorcraft carb with a 715 Holley on the Cobra manifold, put in a Mallory ignition, a Gratiot Cam and a Shelby hood. I removed the 'gills' and replaced them with a pop-riveted cut-to-fit sheet-aluminum panel on each side and installed the rear brake-cooling scoops. All that got the car down to 2880 on the scale at Milan. And then I installed a Paxton VS 59 blower, the GT350 rear brakes, and a set of 4-tube headers.

That car had a 2.32 Top Loader in it from the factory. Street-racing on Telegraph, I could get a running speed set-up that had a 396 Chevy II in second gear while I still had a useful amount of first gear left. I was running a 3.50 rear, but also having a set of tall Pirelli Cinturatos on the back on 15 inch Galaxie Station Wagon wheels. And a slightly smaller set on the front. So with 15 pounds plus of boost, I could just walk away.

Take advantage of planning where you'll be with each component.

KS
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 06:05:45 AM by cammerfe »

Diogenes

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 03:48:55 AM »
I already have the close ratio trans, so a wide ratio is not in the cards. I am going from a C6 (which recently went bad due to converter failure) to this set up. Many years back, I swapped a close ratio toploader into my old Merc wagon, replacing a C4. It had a 3.25 Detroit Locker. I changed to a 3.50, but it was still a dog, ended up going to a 3.89 and it liked it a lot. The wagon only weighed around 3800lbs, maybe a bit less. The Galaxie runs quite a bit more weight. My tire diameter is about 26". I'd say a 3.89 is probably where I'll have to go, as Nightmist66 stated, it's likely the best compromise.

Still concerned about a good clutch that won't break the bank--any thoughts???
When criminals make the laws, obeying the law is a crime.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 C6 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
71 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
89 Texas DPS Police Mustang
71 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
68 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
89 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

GerryP

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2020, 07:21:24 AM »
...My 9in. has a 3.25 gear (I believe, will confirm soon). ....

This is an important detail.  Know for fact what you have.  Your tire size is also wrong.  Unless someone put the wrong size tire on the car, it is taller than 26".  Tire size too makes a difference.

If you want to get into theoretical outcomes, use 9:1 as a target.  The 9:1 is the overall gear ratio to the axles when you multiply your First gear ratio by the final drive ratio.  If you really do have a 3.25, and you multiply that by your close ratio First gear of 2.32, you end up with 7.54:1.  A 3.50 gear gets you to 8.12.  A 3.73 to 8.65.  And a 3.91 hits the target at 9.07.

What's magical about the 9:1?  Nothing.  It's one of those things many people -not just me- have come to by many years of experience.  It just about guarantees the car will pull easily from a stop and, while not ideal, you can still hit the strip.  I run a close ratio toploader with a 3.89 gear with a 26" tall tire on my Fairlane.  It can easily pull away from a stop in Second gear.  I have a Linelock and do burnouts on street tires in Second dry, and Third wet.  Here's another magical theory:  For flywheel weight, shoot for 1lb. of flywheel weight for every 100lbs. vehicle weight.

It should go without saying that above or below those magical numbers still work.  You will not have made any fatal mistakes when using those guidelines, but like everything in the tune up, you can hone that edge just a little sharper depending upon what you're wanting to do.

If you have this transmission and you have an unfavorable final drive that will make it hard on the clutch and hard to drive the car, you have an alternative others have brought to your attention:  Convert the close ratio trans to a wide ratio trans.  It's very easy to do.  David Kee Toploaders can hook you up.

shady

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2020, 08:00:32 AM »
I have a big i/o in my 63 Gal. with a 3.50 rear and 225/75/14 tires and have no problem driving it. The 390 has enough torque I can leave the clutch out at an Idle and not stall. I would never go the trouble and expense changing to a steeper first gear. Plus I like the fact that I can stretch first gear out a little longer and then second is right there. If it's behind a small block, different story. A taller first gear is also stronger than a steeper one due to less torque multiplication.
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e philpott

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2020, 08:33:51 AM »
Close ratio is terrible for street and strip unless it's a 5 or 6 speed , wide ratio is the way to go

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 10:38:42 AM »
Many decades ago I broke my WR toploader and buddy gave me a CR to run.  UGH, even with 4.56 gears I hated that CR box around town.  Light to light you hardly ever got to 2nd gear(it seemed).  Granted my 428 was cammed up and didn't like anything below 2000 rpm.

I would highly recommend 3.89 gears.  That is what is in my black car and it runs the highway just fine at 65 mph at about 3000 rpm with 275/60/15 BFG tires.
Larry

19cougar68

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 11:57:12 AM »
As far as clutches go I am leaning toward the Ram 98988 clutch and pressure plate kit for my big in/out toploader application.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ram-98988?rrec=true

frnkeore

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2020, 12:55:49 PM »
It says that it is a diaphragm clutch????????

I like diaphragm clutches but, it sure looks like it has springs. I also like that it doesn't have centrifugal weights, makes shifting much better.
Frank

Diogenes

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Re: Calling All Close Ratio Toploader Galaxie Owners
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2020, 01:24:50 PM »
...My 9in. has a 3.25 gear (I believe, will confirm soon). ....

This is an important detail.  Know for fact what you have.  Your tire size is also wrong.  Unless someone put the wrong size tire on the car, it is taller than 26".  Tire size too makes a difference.


I've yet to pull the pig on the 9 to seal a leak, so ring gear will be identified before purchasing parts. the tire size is a 245/60 15, which online info states is 26.6"--rough measurement with a tape measure was 26". Purchasing a WR gear set from Kee is not in the budget at the moment.

This is the clutch kit I'm looking at, mainly because it won't bust out the budget. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-75148
When criminals make the laws, obeying the law is a crime.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 C6 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
71 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
89 Texas DPS Police Mustang
71 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
68 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
89 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell