Author Topic: C6 Problems--Advice Needed  (Read 8427 times)

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Diogenes

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C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« on: September 24, 2020, 08:07:33 PM »
Tonight was a beautiful night here in NW Ohio, so some country road cruising was in order. Unfortunately, I barely got the Galaxie home. I slowed for somone making a turn, downshifting into 2nd and then got into the throttle once I was able. It accelerated as usual and I upshifted into drive--it free revved a bit and then was fine. it did it again but then stayed in drive. I went straight home. It felt like there was some mild vibration, but I chalked it up to the road. I turned down my road and it didn't want to go into drive, but manual shifting got it there. Went to put in garage but had to back it up to line up, but it was done. Checked fluid, looks good but may have been a bit low, added some fluid, started engine and tried getting into gear--nothing. No forward or reverse, thought I may have heard a little "sheet metal" like sound, very little. Now, with car in park if I start engine there is a vibration.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

fryedaddy

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 08:32:12 PM »
it may be something as simple as a modulator valve or line to modulator valve stopped up.unhook at both ends and blow through it,it may just be clogged.i have to blow mine out every now and then or it wont go into drive,but yours wont move at all so i dont know.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 09:07:26 PM by fryedaddy »
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

e philpott

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 09:19:25 PM »
Sounds like your torque converter is coming apart and would explain the “ won’t move “ yet fluid still looks good along with the vibration.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 09:22:52 PM »
I've had mine accidentally disconnected in the past, it just wouldn't upshift into drive. I did as you suggested anyways, since it is simple to do-no change. When I rev engine I hear something, but hard to describe. Its faint, and a vibration. Friend thinks it may be convertor related.

Jegs has a TCI street rodder transmission package for just shy of 1500.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 09:26:43 PM »
Sounds like your torque converter is coming apart and would explain the “ won’t move “ yet fluid still looks good along with the vibration.

I was responding while you posted--my friend agrees. If that is the case, how would one determine that to indeed be the case? Does it trash the whole trans? I'm an automatic trans ignoramus, unfortunately. Toploaders always seemed more simple--and fun.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

e philpott

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 09:27:45 PM »
Just install a new stock converter for around 120.00 dollars.

Vacuum Modulator controls pump pressure which has a direct effect on light throttle cruise shift points like you found out , full throttle romp through the gears you would never know the vacuum line was off

e philpott

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 09:32:11 PM »


If the fluid in the pan is good just change out the converter and go
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 09:35:26 PM by e philpott »

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2020, 09:35:51 PM »
Just install a new stock converter for around 120.00 dollars.

When I pull the converter, will there be obvious sign of failure? I'd hate to put it all back together for nothing.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

e philpott

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2020, 09:38:02 PM »
Nope, it probably has a bad spragg in the stator freewheeling both directions instead of holding one direction
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 09:39:52 PM by e philpott »

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2020, 09:44:13 PM »
Thanks for the info. I guess I gotta tear into it. At least its about the end of driving season in this neck of the woods.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

67xr7cat

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2020, 10:37:49 PM »
I'd start by adding a quart or two of fluid.  It may be low and dipstick is off.  Next step be check for line pressure. Stuck pressure regulator, pump problem be no or low line pressure . If line pressure is good then be a converter or input shaft broke. 

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2020, 11:26:42 PM »
I'd start by adding a quart or two of fluid.  It may be low and dipstick is off.  Next step be check for line pressure. Stuck pressure regulator, pump problem be no or low line pressure . If line pressure is good then be a converter or input shaft broke.

I did add a quart, thinking it was a little low, but no change. What is the best way to test line pressure? I'm not familiar with anything beyond filter, fluid, and linkage on an AT. I guess its time to educate myself.

Thank you for the information!
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

Lowrider

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 06:06:53 AM »
Possible that the input shaft spline stripped out. Either the spline in the convertor, forward clutch or the shaft itself. Had that happen to me on a C4 years ago. Bad thing is it sends metal debris throughout the trans. I "only" needed a convertor but had to disassemble & clean the whole trans because of the metal in it.

gt350hr

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 11:06:04 AM »
  Reverse has very high line pressure and will engage when forward gears won't. In your case  ( as others have already said) since you have nothing , the input shaft isn't turning the planetary it is hooked to. It certainly could be the splines ripped out. The convertor sprag could break , but they usually "lock" , not freewheel. Once ( in a C4) my convertor broke the pump fin section away from the rear cover. That meant the outer shell was only turning the trans pump , nothing else! My convertor guy ( Munsinger) had never seen this happen.. My bet is the planetary splines.
   Randy

cjshaker

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2020, 12:37:34 PM »
I used to rebuild automatics about 35 years ago, and I've forgotten 95% of what I used to know, but I've seen pumps go bad on several occasions. Symptoms are very similar to what was stated here. I don't know if that's the issue, but just shows that there are quite a few things that can give similar symptoms. One reason why I hate autos.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
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Stangman

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 02:31:00 PM »
I agree with Doug and that could be the noise you hear, maybe like a whinning noise. I dought the shaft splines stripped i would think that could take some HP to do.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 04:07:01 PM »
At this point I'm not certain on how to proceed, though the points regarding the converter being the culprit do seem to take into account the vibrations I'm getting. I'd hate to drop cash on a converter if its a waste. Yeah, I like a manual trans better, my lack of automatic trans knowledge has me thinking its all witchcraft :)
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

RJP

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 06:46:11 PM »
A C6 is a relativity easy trans to rebuild. Just get a shop manual for help. If you have a 'no drive' in any gear I would first do a pressure test. There is a small plug near the band adjuster & nut on the driver side. For pressure confirmation test only you can use a 100lb engine oil pressure gauge, just don't rev the engine, it could ruin your gauge. At low idle there should be 60-65 lbs pressure. If there is no pressure the front pump would be the 1st thing I'd look at. It isn't common but sometimes the inner or outer pump gear breaks. I've had that happen on a C4, the outer gear broke into 5 or 6 pieces= instant 'no drive' in any gear.  Although personally I've never seen a C6 input shaft break or strip in mild street use I guess it is entirely possible. Be aware that there are 2 input shafts available. Early C6 up to about 1974 or 75 are 31/31 spline and will fit into the forward clutch hub either way, and later C6s use a 31/30 spline. I've seen a time or two where the 31/31 shaft is installed backwards [long spline into the converter] This pushes the converter forward loading the engine thrust bearing and I don't think I need to tell you what happens next. If you rebuild the trans I'd replace the converter just because, if for nothing else you will have a clean, debris free and confirmed good converter.  A rebuilt stock converter is only about $140-150.00 and not worth the effort to do the R&R twice.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2020, 03:12:33 AM »
Great information RJP--thank you, and thanks to all who've responded. Are there any special tools I'll need?

I've built multiple engines and toploaders, so I ought to be able to tackle this as well. I've always wanted to build an AT, so I  guess this is my opportunity.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 04:31:04 PM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

GerryP

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2020, 06:58:12 AM »
Great information RJP--thank you, and thanks to all who've responded. Are there any special tools I'll need?
...

You'll need a transmission spring compressor for the clutch pack.  Snap ring pliers.  Assembly Goo.  That's about it. 

KMcCullah

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2020, 09:45:23 AM »
Eric has you pointed in the right direction. If your C6 isn't a high mileage unit, probably lost a sprag bearing in the torque converter. As mentioned, start with checking for oil pressure. The port next to the band adjuster or the front cooler line port will work for verifying pressure. Before pulling the C6, I'd drop the pan and check for heavy metal chunks. If it's a performance converter that you dropped some coin on, it can be fixed. If not, maybe this would be a good time to upgrade?

No smoke and mirrors with C6's. If you get into the clutches, there's a few different types of spring compressor that makes it easy.

This is one I have:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Ford-C6-Rear-Clutch-Spring-Compressor-Tool-Repalce-SST-0152/392880280711?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item5b797d5487:g:6CQAAOSwEEVfDStL&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkyMJZWL%252BqFSgQ3TOOe%252FNr7smA5Wsq9xlQujf7qZ6WEX42hkw8Ap4Cju95Bwv9KCHe%252BgRI2n3bKzRLTH56VCeI%252Fx99DJE5Kq6WlPv1iKI1Dv0PUPilJimsWQoZzWiaqseuo9aX0X7FpiwnF8ih0sZxrFwzBzjffLH5AYrnmDiBp8Zw1faAh7th9dNhOnoRtmDvFRget%252BBkOYfgPznBW6cbdV%252BZsFm4gimFJnrjma31WOYgfvAfrgwfTWt0JkVrVhhdIfTyLMU91dVG3TFFHNqH6DBOGoPmrgRZnggJLj4tpH1hoq1GbVMWb1D08wQEFu3l1oieX12m8wYlJsKzRjJTJoy%252FzaIyLi0rIFXKh5nkTdPIsK%252FphUIfxD%252B6rN%252BBcrbqLxXoxnA0kAxJlA9lrkiUi3Baforfm96fuy8%252BCQNkyvwljY6cU5YbLMtoRtRP5SW9G2WbvFMzReEKfXwN599bjcqiobNgwUYRAb9oC0wPy7IVjt5MMhwvj03i0pbDwkZlMulYf1z3w%252BRLoGanhDZvq9sEMbr%252BZQ6At9%252FTic%252FUWcOFXQnWgOi6pO%252BxVbupQxuEYbkUGauO6OcYmk3lNJETmQg4q1ZxctDN%252F5mwJuniCukYJmqdb%252FuEVt5h1iALHHS2QKa%252F6Pk5Xv9ebiSOsA8KfmPSH73LpZHaT%252BX10Gvl04nhWYo0ZMLVjkJCJPXzytgeVnXuhTuX5tKk9lpTR8YLuS77xizKzFi4BGE6yorFhAD3vKWqWVlswPFviVTugaklGHDt4bxzG0ODY8Jg6N4HyA%253D%253D%7Ccksum%3A392880280711f72c90944e504616973664ba47e0a0e1%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

Kevin McCullah


RJP

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2020, 11:06:14 AM »
 Generally an inoperative torque converter [stator] sprag will still allow the trans to operate but performance will be way off and sluggish. I've never seen a converter sprag failure cause a complete no drive condition. If the converter was a complete jumbled mess internally then perhaps yes.  Special tools: for Hi/rev clutch I use the forward clutch's Belville spring and 2 C clamps. For the low/rev I manipulate the inner sprag race using the 5 retaining bolts to compress the 24 low/rev springs in the piston. Strong word of advice: Install the low/rev piston's ball check valve at the 6 o'clock position. That is when the trans is in the up right operating position the check valve will be at the bottom. Easy to confuse since the trans case is usually up-side-down when doing the assembly. If the piston's check valve is not installed correctly a very harsh reverse engagement most likely will result. Don't ask me how I know. ::) Edit to correct spelling
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 11:13:01 AM by RJP »

frnkeore

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2020, 01:46:24 PM »
The only thing, inside the torque convertor that would cause a compete, drive failure, would be a turbine hub failure. That is what the input shaft connects to, inside the converter. Input shaft could also be broken.

As RJP says, the stator will cause a loss of take off power, it only works when there is a differential in motion, between the output and the engine speeds. The oil spirals, inside the converter and is redirected, threw the stator and back against the pump side (outer converter housing), to increase the engine torque. When the turbine starts moving, it starts loosing it's torque multiplication. When the sprag clutch fails, it can't redirect the fluid, it just spins.

90% of the time, that a convertor fails, it will cause the trans fluid, to become contaminated with with metal, sticking spool valve and pressure relief valves. It makes a BIG mess of any close fitting parts.

Added:
Front pump failure would also cause a "no drive" condition. Both would cause a vibration.



 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 01:50:51 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2020, 04:19:07 PM »
More good info.

The odd thing I forgot to mention, when I put it in any gear it feels like it engages, but when I apply throttle nothing happens.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

frnkeore

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2020, 06:30:41 PM »
I'd say, that if it feels like something is happening, the front pump is probably ok as, nothing will happen, if there is no pressure.
Frank

67xr7cat

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2020, 06:52:48 PM »
As I said need to check the line pressure. May be none or low. Think others have already explained how to do this. If line is low or none can be low fluid level, front pump, or a stuck pressure regulator. A C-6 has an aluminum valve body with metal spool valves. Get any dirt in there and they will sometimes stick.  If your line pressure is low to none I'd start by dropping the pan and valve body to check the pressure regulator.  This will also allow you to see if any metal or excess clutch material in the pan, as well see if the fluid is burnt.  If the pressure regulator is not stuck or have a broken spring then figure on taking the unit out and rebuilding it.

If you have pull it out your choice is to repair the failure or do a rebuild. A rebuild kit with new clutches, steels, seals, and gaskets are less than $150. As for the converter, I'd replace it. A good stock rebuilt one is about $100.  Unless you cut it open really cannot say what its condition is. Final thing is either flush or replace the oil cooler. Usually I just bypass the factory cooler and add an external.  Fastest way ruin your day is some debris get out of the old cooler and hang a valve in the valve boy or governor.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2020, 07:45:47 PM »
The fluid is not low nor is it burnt (at least on the dipstick). It has an aftermarket converter (JW Perf. Trans) and trans was professionally rebuilt by PO, engine is not stock but a mild build with an external cooler, finned cast aluminum pan with more capacity I presume. There was no indication of failure, though looking back I would have a loping idle when in gear at a stop sign/light that I didn't originally have (but not in park), which was happening for a couple months. I did replace the intake gasket earlier this year and tinkered with the timing, but it is within norms. The car got up and moved pretty well, but it may have taken a bit more pedal to get it, though it is impossible to quantify the feel. 

WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

67xr7cat

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2020, 09:15:44 PM »
Deep pan, did they use the extended pick up? Does the dipstick read right?  Are there any transmission leaks?  I know you added a quart, but I'd add another just to be sure, especially if there is a leak.

You said this started as a flare on the 2-3 shift and got worse from there. If something broke it would have broke and you would be dead in the water from the start.  I'd check the line pressure, if it is low or zero I'd pull the valvebody  and check that the pressure regulator is working right.  This will also let you see what is in the pan and go from there.

Is hard to tell if fluid is burnt looking at a dipstick.  Have had it look good, but be burnt when pull the pan.  If problem is not in the VB, you will likely find you broke a hard part, either the pump, input shaft, or converter. 

Whether you repair or rebuild will depend on if there is a bunch of debris in the unit. If there is you have to take everything apart at least to get all the debris out.  Hot transmission fluid is great for cleaning everything out and then it ends up in the VB and/or governor and then the fun starts....  the converter if it  is not the failure can get it flushed out, but again you cannot tell the condition of a converter without cutting it open.  The cooler you want to flush out. If you have a bunch of debris in the transmission if the cooler is on of those cheeses grater styles better off replacing it or putting a filter in the return line.

Now of course if you find the failure can just fix that and put it all back together. If you do not find any debris in the unit may be able to get away with that, but personally I'd rather do it once and be done, hence the above advice.

Good luck with it. 

cjshaker

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2020, 10:15:11 PM »
I'd say, that if it feels like something is happening, the front pump is probably ok as, nothing will happen, if there is no pressure.

Not necessarily. A pump can be in partial failure mode. I've seen one that would shift into first but would not hold 2nd or 3rd. I've seen one that would feel like it would go into gear, but would not hold enough pressure to move, and I've seen one that would not move at all.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2020, 12:27:37 AM »
It has a stock dipstick, no leaks. Sat overnight and checked stick again tonight and it looked dark/material contaminant, but put stick back in and rechecked and was red--don't smell burnt either.

Flared when upshifting from 2 to 3, but went into gear. Flared once again while in 3rd, but then stayed. Drove it about 8-10 miles on state route without slowing, running up to about 60-65mph, had to slow twice to make turns but kept momentum and was able to get it in the drive, but I had to do some manual shifting to get it there. I put it into reverse to position for the garage and that was it, lost everything.

It'll be a few days before I can do further investigation, but I'll post my findings when I obtain them.

I really appreciate all the information all of you have provided.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 12:29:42 AM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

cjshaker

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2020, 01:58:11 PM »
Those symptoms sound like seal or valvebody issues. It used to be common to experience the same issues on old C6 transmissions where the seals were getting hard and losing their sealing ability. One of the old "tricks" used to be to put about half a teaspoon of dishwashing liquid in, which would soften the seals a bit and get it to work better. It actually worked for me once, in an old 460 Mercury stationwagon. It only lasted about a year though before they just stopped working altogether. By that time, the clutches were pretty much toasted from slipping. Not saying that's the issue, but I'm sure there are a lot of guys here who have experienced it, back in the day.
Doug Smith


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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2020, 02:10:04 PM »
If you do a complete rebuild I would check to confirm the forward and hi/rev clutch packs have an adequate amount of clutches, those would be the frictions, not the steels. Hi/rev should have 4 for a mildly built 390 and there should be 5 clutches in the forward. If clutches need to be added it is not a big deal if you have access to a shop with a lathe. The thick backing plate in each clutch assembly can be machined to add an extra friction and steel. Some people get away with regrooving the drum but that can lead to problems if the old groove interferes with a steel plate. It can hang up causing the clutch pack to drag or if it aligns up with the groove the steel will be useless, it will float. I've always done the backing plate machining. If you have access to a hard parts vendor you can use the beveled pressure plate that is found in the forward clutch that acts directly against the Belville spring. It is important to add here that setting your clutch clearances to spec. is very critical. I use the ".008" to .010" per friction clutch" rule. That has always served me well. I recently finished building a C6 for my 66 Galaxie 428. I started with a core that was from a low hp/tq. 352 or 390 2V. It had a 4 clutch forward and a 3 clutch hi/rev. I upgraded to a 5 clutch forward [machined backing plate method] and I had a couple extra 4 clutch hi/rev drums from some other cores I had. If you want to overkill this you can still buy a 5 clutch hi/rev drum new. It was OEM in a 428 CJ/SCJ and some Lincolns. I think it is still available from Ford or it is available thru some of the A/T parts vendors.     

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2020, 03:44:15 PM »
you might want to make sure that the filter didn't fall to the bottom of the pan.
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Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2020, 10:44:31 PM »
I plumbed an old Stewart Warner gauge into the cooler line, which indicated around 60-62lbs at idle. I can't speak to the accuracy of the gauge, but clearly there is ample pressure.

What does this possibly point to? Previous posts state a converter or broken input shaft--is this all that it could be?

Again, thank you for all the feedback.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 10:49:42 PM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
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manofmerc

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2020, 02:44:23 AM »
Is that in park ? I believe for a stock valve body 90 psi is normal .A valve body with a shift kit would be more than 90 .probably in the 120 range or higher .You can use your gauge and check the pressures in low second drive and reverse to isolate each gear and find if either one is leaking .To me 60 is low .I recently rebuilt a c-6 that had 50 psi in park the clutches were fried in it .Check your pressures in the different gears and get back to us .Good luck Doug!

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2020, 02:57:12 AM »
Yes, it was in park, low idle. I only have an old engine oil pressure gauge up to 80lbs to check.

RJP posted this response a while back "At low idle there should be 60-65 lbs pressure."
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

RJP

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2020, 12:08:44 PM »
Pressures should be checked using engine vacuum as your guideline. I'm not going to post the entire chart as it is quite comprehensive. At idle in drive, low, 2nd with 17" or more of vacuum @ 29.5 barometric pressure] there should be 51-66lbs of control pressure and 72-108lbs in reverse only. Next pressure check is done at 15" vacuum @29.5 BA/HG, press. should be 70-78lbs. and so on. All the way down to below 1.0" vacuum where press. should be 157-172 lbs [drive, 2nd and low gear] reverse should have 230-252lbs of pressure. This is specification for a STOCK built C6, not with a shift kit or any other valve body modifications. If you have the pressure you have found I'd be looking into the input shaft, broken, stripped splines or any other mayhem in the input shaft, forward clutch splines, etc. Not having reverse tells me the forward clutch could still be functioning, maybe not 100% right but when only the forward clutch fails the trans will still have reverse as rev is the only "in gear" position that does not engage the forward clutch, hence the name "forward". Most of the forward clutch failures I've dealt with are broken or hard seals that won't hold pressure. When that happens the forward clutches go south very quickly as they are slipping.  My comment regarding "At low idle there should be 60-65lbs press." was a guesstimate that should have merely proven the front pump was still working. IMO, You should pull the trans and with the converter removed grab hold of the input shaft and pull it out as there is nothing holding it in such as a snap ring, etc. Let us know what you find.

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2020, 11:19:49 PM »
"If you have the pressure you have found I'd be looking into the input shaft, broken, stripped splines or any other mayhem in the input shaft, forward clutch splines, etc."

Would any of these possible failures in the transmission cause the vibration I experienced?

I drained the pan in preparation to pull the trans. The magnetic drain plug had, what I assume, some black metallic "paste" on it, but there weren't any large metallic pieces on the plug or in the fluid. I won't pull the pan until I get it out of the car.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2020, 12:16:17 PM »
It is very hard if not impossible to diagnose problems such as this on line with any accuracy. At the point you are at now your only option is to pull the trans and tear it down. Since you have the pan off remove the valve body [8 bolts] and look for any obvious damage, likely there will be nothing visible short of a broken sun shell or a hi/rev drum that has come apart also look for the drive lugs on the hi/rev that engage the sunshell, there could be damage there too. Beyond that it is time look further and to pull the front pump as little more is visible at this point. Remove the pump bolts and with the trans up-side-down take a long screwdriver or small pry bar and wedge in between the forward planetary gear set and the sun shell, pry forward and the ft. pump should pop out. It may require a bit of force if the trans has been together for a long time. Now you will be able to remove the hi/rev drum, band and forward drum. As I said in a previous post when the converter is removed the input shaft end is now visible, inspect splines and look for debris on the ends. Now just grab it and pull straight out. If there is damage to the input either stripped, broken or whatever. If nothing found it is time to tear down your sub assemblies, the forward and the hi/rev. With the problems you are experiencing I think it is rather moot to attempt an air pressure test but if you want to it should be done before the front pump is loose. A good shop manual will have instructions for a air pressure test. I usually reserve that test for when the trans is being assembled and the 3 clutch assemblies, band servo and governor are air tested to confirm they hold pressure and are functioning.    Post your findings and we can go from there.

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2020, 12:29:47 PM »
time to pull her out,if you want to find out whats wrong,and fix it.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2020, 06:39:00 PM »
"If you have the pressure you have found I'd be looking into the input shaft, broken, stripped splines or any other mayhem in the input shaft, forward clutch splines, etc."

Would any of these possible failures in the transmission cause the vibration I experienced?

I drained the pan in preparation to pull the trans. The magnetic drain plug had, what I assume, some black metallic "paste" on it, but there weren't any large metallic pieces on the plug or in the fluid. I won't pull the pan until I get it out of the car.

How did the fluid look?

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2020, 03:35:35 AM »
It looks dark red. After draining the drip pan, it had what was obviously some friction material at the bottom of the drain pan. I dragged an old hard drive permanent magnet on a wire through the drain pan and picked up some black "dust", but nothing more. Fluid isn't burnt smelling but dark. I've gotta drop the pipes before I can drop the trans, still have some work to do. I hope to have it on the floor by Monday night--schedule permitting.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 06:59:26 PM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2020, 07:16:19 PM »
I've got the trans out--the input shaft looks good. I likely won't be able to work on disassembly for about a week.

Any suggestions on what kit to purchase/who to purchase from? I've yet to find a stock converter for $140-160. I don't believe this is a stock converter, but the stack of receipts that came with the car doesn't have a receipt, just paperwork from the manufacturer. Would a stock converter be fine with the below specs?

CR 9.75:1
Bullet cam 230/230 dur@050 524 lift @050
3.25 or 3.50 gear (not certain, but believe its 3.25, I'll have to count)
66 Galaxie

UPDATE: I identified the torque converter, a JW Performance Street Lethal 60442-LP, says stall speed is 2400-2700. Seems unnecessary??
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 10:02:41 PM by Diogenes »
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2020, 08:34:09 AM »
Suggestion. If you haven't done it, turn the input shaft and see if it feels like it's turning the planetary in the trans. Next pull the input shaft out and stick it in the coverter and see if its turning and not stripped. Myself, I like to know what happened to it when something goes south on me.

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2020, 10:54:48 AM »
Suggestion. If you haven't done it, turn the input shaft and see if it feels like it's turning the planetary in the trans. Next pull the input shaft out and stick it in the coverter and see if its turning and not stripped. Myself, I like to know what happened to it when something goes south on me.
X 2... As Lowrider suggested use the input shaft to see if converter and forward clutch hub turn smoothly. You may not be able to see if the planetary turns as the input shaft engages the forward drum hub only and motion may not be transferred to the assembly behind the forward clutch. Also turn the output shaft, it should turn rather easy in forward [drive] rotation but it will be much harder to turn in reverse. It is for that reason there is much more line pressure needed for reverse.

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2020, 06:00:48 PM »
Ok so the input shaft is good. Lets assume that everything connected to the input and behind the front pump is good also and you still want to rebuild the trans. Before you start shopping for a rebuild kit you need to determine IF the trans is original to the car. 66 Galaxies have a large and small green dot on the gear selector. Referred to as the Cruise-O-Matic similar to the old FX- MX iron case B/W 3 speed trans. I mention this because 1966 only has a few differences from the 67 and later "Select-Shift" C6s. Obviously the valve body is different and can be identified by both the V/B and the transfer plate have C6XX part numbers and generally cannot be upgraded to the select shift V/B needed for low-2nd-high gear shifting and the ability to hold what ever gear you put the selector in until you shift into the next gear, either up or down. Any V/B with a p/n C7XX and up to a D3 or D4XX V/b [ can be used for a shift kit maintaining the select shift feature. The next thing you need to confirm is the 1966 only forward clutch uses coarse spline friction clutches and common rebuild kits will not have these coarse spline discs. I know some builders have use the Hi/Rev frictions in the forward as the splines are the same. Personally I've never done it and I don't really recommend it as the friction materials are different, at least they used to be. In order to use a standard, over the counter rebuild kit with common frictions and steels the forward clutch will need to be changed. As I pointed out in a past post the forward clutch hub for 66 thru 72 or 73 have 31 splines, later have 30 splines so you'll need to be careful what forward hub you need or you might be buying a 31/30 input shaft to go with the later forward clutch.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2020, 04:22:01 AM »
Yeah, identifying the year is going to be a challenge. The car was a column shift, but I scored a nice 7 liter interior and converted to console and floor shift. The tag on the trans is missing, the pump casting is C6AP, but I believe all the pumps are the same. The case casting is D3TP. This is not going to be fun identifying.

I spun the input shaft, sounds like some squeaking going on, but the trans is drained. I pulled the shaft and put it in the converter, it spins, but sounds like a bunch of gravel and ball bearings spinning inside--it don't sound good.

I GREATLY appreciate all the thoughts and expertise (and time) shared. Thank you.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

RJP

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2020, 11:41:54 AM »
I think you have found your problem...the converter. It should not sound like a box of rocks rolling down a hill. At this point it would be a waste of time and money to have the converter split and inspected. With what you have described it would not even be worth core charge. Regarding the case p/n of D3TP it sound like it is from a truck but the main thing you should look for is the detent mechanism for the shifter. Early shifters use a ball & spring in the valve body and later, say in the 73-74-75 range [I don't remember the exact year] they switched to a "rooster comb" and a loaded flat spring/roller so be careful about purchase of a rebuilt v/b if you choose to go that route. As for the internals of the v/b there are a couple of differences such as check valves and I believe spring tensions so if you do a shift kit you need to know what vintage v/b you have. If it were mine and the trans is out and on the bench I would do a complete rebuild if for nothing else to clean any debris that seems to migrate thru out the system after a component failure no matter where that failure is. Also it is a good time to inspect for any pending component wear, damage and such and to bring all component clearances back into spec. Don't assume the converter debris is confined to just the converter. You will need to flush out the cooler lines and heat exchanger before putting a rebuilt trans back into service as fluid from the converter goes to the cooler before returning to the output shaft support bushing and sprag clutch. Look for damage to the sprag rollers and races along with junk getting into the main support bushing. There are commercial flushing kits available to do this. 

gt350hr

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2020, 02:10:14 PM »

+1 It sounds like it broke the sprag in the stator. Rare but it does happen. Trash goes everywhere!

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2020, 08:18:06 PM »
I pulled the pan and valve body tonight. There is light glitter in the bottom of the pan, nothing heavy, but still nothing good. It obviously needs to come apart.

casting #s on valve body are D2AP on the casting on the trans side, C7AP on the piece facing the pan bottom.

I'll need to replace the converter, but not planning on dropping $450 to replace the one that failed. Not sure what impact a B&M or TCI converter rated at 2000 stall will have on the cars performance ($200-240), based on the failed convereter is allegedly a 2400-2700 stall. I'm way out of my sphere of knowledge here.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

shady

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2020, 07:22:48 AM »
the last B&M I used cost me a tranny. Went to a FTI.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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e philpott

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2020, 07:30:17 AM »
Throw a stock converter in there for 125.00 and go

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2020, 08:33:14 AM »
I'm just catching up on this thread. Great read and great advice. Two questions I have though. 1 - Did the dipstick ever show signs of bubbles in the fluid? A moot point at this stage but I'm curious as I didn't see any mention. 2 - What servo does your C6 have? D, R etc... and does the type of servo affect the decision to rebuild vs replace?

Good Luck!
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2020, 03:08:10 PM »
Throw a stock converter in there for 125.00 and go

I'd certainly consider it, but where do I find a stock converter for $125? Admittedly, I've been looking for parts for a 66 C6, which this clearly isn't. Still need to rebuild it with all the metal flake in the fluid.

No bubbles on the stick, and I don't know what servo is in it at the moment.
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

fryedaddy

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2020, 04:30:08 PM »
i took my 66 c6 stock converter out and put a 3500 in.if you lived in east tn i would let you come get it free.dont want to ship,but if you lived close enough you could come get it.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new

Gregwill16

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2020, 05:14:25 PM »
Dioceses not sure where you are located but I just pulled a 68 PI C6 from from 69 Mustang to go manual. Good ready to go transmission just bolt in and go for not a whole lot more money.

Diogenes

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2020, 05:39:42 PM »
i took my 66 c6 stock converter out and put a 3500 in.if you lived in east tn i would let you come get it free.dont want to ship,but if you lived close enough you could come get it.

I appreciate the offer, but I'm a little up the road from you--NW Ohio, though I'm in Lexington, KY multiple times a week, still up the road a bit.

Dioceses not sure where you are located but I just pulled a 68 PI C6 from from 69 Mustang to go manual. Good ready to go transmission just bolt in and go for not a whole lot more money.

Let me know if I'm in your neck of the woods--please see above. I'm envious, I'd sure love to make the same conversion, but....
WHEN CRIMINALS MAKE THE LAWS, OBEYING THE LAW IS A CRIME.

1966 Galaxie 500 390 Toploader 3.89 Traction-Lock 9in.
1985 Toyota Celica Supra
1971 Montego MX wagon 351C Toploader Detroit Locker Cyclone competition gauge/dash bucket seats/console
1989 Texas DPS Police Mustang
1971 Torino GT 351C 4V AT
1968 Cougar 351W Toploader Traction-Lock 8in.
1989 Dodge Omni modified 2.5 turbo from hell

Gregwill16

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Re: C6 Problems--Advice Needed
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2020, 07:18:55 PM »
I am only 15 minutes from Lexington in Winchester KY and don't mind to meet somewhere if needed.