Author Topic: Canadian CJ Heads  (Read 4825 times)

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chilly460

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Canadian CJ Heads
« on: September 14, 2020, 02:57:24 PM »
I knew about Canadian CJ heads, but really hadn't bothered to know any details because of their rarity.  Saw a set of Dove Canadian CJs this weekend, they were hurt but a fair price and kind of cool being so unique.  Only info I can gather is they flow something like 320cfm intake, and the intake port is somewhere between a Low Riser and High Riser as far as physical size. 

Anyone on here run them or know much about them?  I'm guessing even if bought at a bargain price, modern stuff is more logical, but I do like unique or vintage stuff if not going for every last bit of performance.

Also, no need to comment on Dove, issues are known ad nauseum, really just wanted info on the port/chamber differences.

WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 03:15:49 PM »
See Post 15488 here by Terry Bell:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nhra-junior-stock.201085/page-517

"All 50 of the 1968 "RACE" 428 CJ's were a little liter than the regular Mustangs. They also had a modified rear wheel tub to use the 10.5 inch tires in Super Stock. They also came with what was called the "Canadian Head" which had 10 C.C. larger intake ports. Ford mad 52 pairs of heads for the 50 cars. Just 2 extra pair in case of blow ups. Look for the area by the spark plug area. It has a clock face on the stdard heads and just a DOT in the same place for the Canadian head. Easy to spot. The guys I did heads for back in 1969 thru around 1975 or so each had a pair. They were Jim Morgan and Dickie Estivez both from Maryland. Dickie had the 1968 Winter Nats. S/S winner that was raced by Al Joniac out of "Rice-Holman Ford" in N.J. They both held S/S records back in the day and Jim Morgan driving his 1969 Convertible in SS/I and later a fast back was Div. One S/S champion 2 or 3 times then also. My guess is the 68 were factored later as NHRA was not checking the heads for CC volume back then and I was the guy who told Greg X. and NHRA about the Canadian head which was only legal on the 68 Lite Wts after they found out about them. This was way before the NHRA started to allow porting and polishing !"

Elsewhere on fordfe.com years ago, SSDynosaur said that the CCJ heads don't really flow any better up to .500 lift - but at .500, the vanilla heads stall out and the CCJ heads, like the early (aka race) Big F 427 MR heads, flow right on up to .700-.750 lift, where the CCJ would flow about 310cfm, as opposed to the Litte F 427 MR heads at about 270cfm at .500 and then going turbulent.

This jives with the Muscle Parts tests where they dyno the 390 Dominator and 428 Dominator with the big .600 lift c8ax-D cam, and it doesn't really add much - not nearly what it should. Those vanilla 428CJ heads don't like the extra lift. The big "D" cam .600 lift was designed to work right with either the 427 MR, 427 TP, or 428 CCJ heads in Superstock drag racing.

BIGBLOCKHEAD

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 03:21:29 PM »
Here is an interesting article from the CJ website...
https://www.428cobrajet.org/straight-scoop-canadian-heads

chilly460

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 03:42:08 PM »
I think they're kind of cool from the story, even though they're not "real" FoMoCo which I assume are huge $$$ if one could even find a set.  Alas, two engine builds going on and just plunked down cash for my rebuilt C1s so wasn't in the cards. 

gt350hr

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2020, 03:46:54 PM »
   Thank you BIGBLOCKHEAD!

     A little back ground on the CORRECT information published on the 428CJ site.
   I answered a phone call from "a guy" named Bruce who said he used to work for Ford and race a Maverick and a Pinto. I said "you are Bruce Sizemore''. He was surprised I knew who he was. During that initial conversation he told me the story of "exactly" how HE got the heads made in'69 ( not '68 for the 135 cars as reported) and distributed at the '69 US Nationals as the article you noted. When I got off of the phone I posted the info on the CJ site and this resulted in Bruce and I ( along with the rest of the guys who helped get the heads) going to the 50th CJ reunion. I hung out with Bruce all three days as his guest . It was awesome to see him back in the spotlight and correct all of the myths regarding these heads. The intake ports were "put into" the CJ head from the Medium riser and that was done by Al Buckmaster who would later gain fame as part of the Gapp and Roush group along with fellow engineer Bill Jameson (rip)
    The original heads are very rare and the Dove replicas were done the same way so they have the same potential. "Some" were done in aluminum by Dove as well.
    Randy

gt350hr

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2020, 04:19:19 PM »
     The Terry Bell info is off because of the fact that the heads were made in '69 as Bruce said. Bruce "coined" the name after "Farmer" and Greg Xacaliss (sp) knew "something" was different about them but couldn't figure out what. Bruce told them that Ford engineered "a bunch" of heads from the "Windsor" foundry in Canada to get the best flowing ones possible . Something Chevrolet told them already about "certain" heads they made. Bruce felt being from Canada would lessen the possibility of paying the foundry a visit. They were actually cast at Ford's prototype foundry in Detroit not the "regular" Detroit Iron Foundry that made ALL FE heads. Once the differences were figured out , they were hit with a higher HP factor for SuperStock racing. Now that ported or even aluminum heads are legal and ported they are no longer needed for "an edge" in NHRA racing.
  Randy
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 04:59:34 PM by gt350hr »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2020, 06:24:55 PM »
Most of what you read and hear of Canadian heads is laced with bad info and folklore.  They did exist.  There were 50 sets.  They were absolutely better, but after NHRA learned how to ID them, they carried a weight penalty.  Before porting, they were still better even carrying the weight, and allowed some cars to run classes that small N heads couldn't fit.  When porting came to Super Stock, the Canadian heads we're/are allowed 173 cc, where the regular N are 155 cc.  They are still competitive today.  I have ten Canadian heads left.  I might use them again, so I don't sell them.  If the Edelbrock factors ever get real screwed up, they would be real good.  I went 9.37 about 13 years ago with small heads, but the big heads were better.  I had a big head engine in the works when the Edelbrock got approved and I wanted to try those, so my "new" set of Canadian heads have been in the corner for about 15 years.  Unfortunately, no time to do anything with my personal stuff in many years.

Side note: Morgan ran small heads, but he was faster than just about all of the Canadian head cars because he was and is smarter than the others.  Anyone who runs a class Jim is in will have a bad day if Morgan shows up.  ;D
Blair Patrick

WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2020, 06:38:22 PM »
     The Terry Bell info is off because of the fact that the heads were made in '69 as Bruce said. Bruce "coined" the name after "Farmer" and Greg Xacailiss (sp) knew "something" was different about them but couldn't figure out what. Bruce told them that Ford engineered "a bunch" of heads from the "Windsor" foundry in Canada to get the best flowing ones possible . Something Chevrolet told them already about "certain" heads they made. Bruce fely being from Canada would lessen the possibility of paying the foundry a visit. They were actually cast at Ford's prototype foundry in Detroit not the "regular" Detroit Iron Foundry that made ALL FE heads. Once the differences were figured out , they were hit with a higher HP factor for SuperStock racing. Now that ported or even aluminum heads are legal and ported they are no longer needed for "an edge" in NHRA racing.
  Randy

Randy & Bigblockhead:
Thanks for posting and correcting the story from Terry Bell over on HAMB. Terry's info about the flow makes sense, but not the timeline, looks like he's off by 1.5 years or so.

So, if the CCJ heads date to summer 1969, are they (or were they) legal to run on a 1968 car?

My427stang

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 06:44:25 PM »
Just a fly on the wall, the Dove CCJs aren't the original cheater heads.

I did have a set of Dale's Dove heads in my hands, they were ported very nicely and looked like a head that would make some power, so if into your set cheap, and willing to have someone work on them, and assuming the casting was good, they likely could be pretty good.  They aren't new tech though
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- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cammerfe

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 11:42:03 PM »
Going from memory on all this---the information is boxed-up in storage on the 397-inch FE based on a C4 block.

Jim Dove had the ability to 'mix-'n'-match' on the way he put molds together. I had him do up a set of heads for me with what he called the 'F-5' intake runner and the 'ice-cream-scoop' valve pocket on the intake side, which made a significant difference in the floor of the short turn. We used his 'second design' exhaust runner, which had the shape, spacing and height of the factory runners changed so as to match the percentages from intake to exhaust. The combustion chamber started out with the original 352-360 shape with the 'pull-in' between the valves for extra compression. Ross pistons were flat tops with proper location valve reliefs. They were heat-barrier coated, along with anti-friction on the skirts in the same Roush facility that did all the NASCAR parts. Compression was about 11.5 to 1.

Jim had a very specific way to do the porting on the castings, and he 'rubbed' the molds to remove some of the sand and leave extra material so as to make the porting maximally possible without getting too close to the water here and there. We used Ferrea valves, flat for the intakes and tuliped for exhausts, in 2.100 size on the intake and 1.65 on the hot side.

Wayne Kuchtyn did the porting and seats, assisted by a Serdi where there was a benefit with the seats, and a lot of templates and measurements so as to match all Jim's suggestions. On the 1020 automatic flowbench at Livernois, we got 336 at .700 lift and 28 inches on the bench, using a 4.080 bore simulator. Wayne had laid the combustion chamber walls  back to make use of all the clearance possible.

I used a solid roller from Comp with 242-248 at .050 and .658-.666 lift on 110. I asked that it give the street manners of a 'AA' cam such as was in my '64 Custom 427 and, on the Dyno at Roush's Prototype Facility in Livonia it made flat on 500 HP at 7000 on the first pull after break-in. We were only running 32 degrees of advance and using Roush's dyno headers and an 850 dyno carb on a matched Dove 'spider' intake.

We lost a bearing to an error in using a small-block drive spud that loaded the crank forward due to the too-long pilot pushing on the crank in the hollow behind the pilot bearing in the back of the crank. The crash damaged two cylinders requiring some very fancy welding by Chris Razor and sleeving #2 and #6. One head was also badly damaged.

Changes in the management of both Mustang Illustrated  magazine and Mustang and Fords Magazine called a halt to the series thereafter.

KS
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 08:19:00 PM by cammerfe »

gt350hr

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 10:51:05 AM »
   REAL  Canadian heads had/have BS stamped on the end . ALL of the ones Bruce had made have that . Domenic  who did all of the valve work and assembly , has the actual count. All but one set were built with light weight C8AX valves. One set was reworked to heavy ( stock) valves for the Jerry Harvey car. There was only ONE run of the heads and the run was less than 20 "pair". ALL were distributed and RUN at the '69 US Nationals EXCEPT one set that Bruce drove across the Canadian border to give to Barrie Poole. He drove  a'69 Boss 302 "pool car" to do it.
 This information came direct from Bruce during the three days I spent with him at the reunion.
   Randy

WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 03:52:44 PM »
I finally found the 1969 Indy Nationals results in Drag News.
I sure can believe those CCJ heads were in play.

In Super Stock, for each class, a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (alternate) are listed.
The 428CJ (or, 428CCJ) ran in 4 classes stick and 4 classes auto, G=8.50, H=9.00, I=9.50, and J=10.00.
So there are 12 possible places for a 1-2-3 finish in each of 4 classes.
Of those, the 428CJ took:
11 of 12 SS/stick spots
10 of 12 SS/Auto spots
Class wins in the 4 classes the 428CJ could run in":
3 of 4 SS/stick classes (A rarely seen 327/275hp Chevy II took the SS/J=10.00 class)
4 of 4 SS/auto classes (A sweep)

This is in contrast to the Feb 68 Pomona debut where, for all the bally-hoo, the new 428CJ only took one class.
Something sure changed.
Would anyone know which of these cars had production line heads, C8OE-N etc, and which had the magic CCJ heads?

I hope these attachments of the results come through ok. Even the LWG made a cameo appearance as R/U in SS/D=7.00 class, with the HiRiser factored to 500hp.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 03:55:36 PM by WerbyFord »

cammerfe

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 10:09:12 PM »
I worked with John Corrunker on his 'one of the first dozen' Super E Auto cars. It was delivered to Romy Hammes Ford in South Bend IN. We flew from Detroit by private plane and then drove the car back to John's house and tore into it. The first trip to Columbus for the regional was rained out, and we had to go back the next weekend. For most of the season we held the MPH record in Super E, according to the Drag Times listings.

There were a good few areas on the car where they did some clearancing to get parts to fit. It was particularly noticeable at the firewall area, where the driver-side exhaust manifold was an interference fit with the sheet metal.

KS
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 08:19:44 PM by cammerfe »

turbohunter

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 10:19:24 PM »
I swear I could listen to you guys talk about this stuff forever.
Marc
'61 F100 292Y
'66 Mustang Injected 428
'66 Q code Country Squire wagon


WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 10:24:43 PM »
I worked with John Corrunker on his 'one of the first dozen Super E Auto cars. It was delivered to Romy Hammes Ford in South Bend IN. We flew from Detroit by private plane and then drove the car back to John's house and tore into it. The first trip to Columbus for the regional was rained out, and we had to go back the next weekend. For most of the season we held the MPH record in Super E, according to the Drag Times listings.

There were a good few areas on the car where they did some clearancing to get parts to fit. It was particularly noticeable at the firewall area, where the driver-side exhaust manifold was an interference fit with the sheet metal.

KS

So, does that mean the exhaust ports were raised or what would be causing the manifolds to hit the (shock towers) there? Just wondering on the CCJ heads, the FE exhaust port isn't that great so did the CCJ heads have any exhaust improvement?

I'm still researching the 1969 Texas Springnationals, to see if the 428CJ swepts its classes there (which would be pre-CCJ). So far looks like the 428CJ won 3 of 4 auto classes, and 2 of 4 stick classes - I cant figure out what cars won the other two stick classes. JC Downing won SS/G=8.50, the 68 LW Mustang class, a Ford driver but also drove an AMX. Arthur Evans won SS/H=9.00, the 69 Mustang R-code class, but for all I know he ran a Chevy or Mopar or Ram Air IV. Cant find that name anywhere else.

gt350hr

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2020, 10:52:39 AM »
    Werby,
      According to Bruce , "Buckmaster" offered to put the MR intake port into the CJ casting patterns. The exhaust ports were NOT modified , only the intake ports.
    Corrunker was not one of those that got Canadian heads at INDY in '69. He WAS an original "135" owner and no surprise since he worked for Ford and "had connections" 1355 cars were built with 390GT exhaust manifolds so I have no clue why they would have hit anywhere.
  Randy

ntheogen

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2020, 05:25:12 PM »
I have some pictures of Morgan's CCJ heads but can't seem to post them. I had the privilege of have them for a few months, They're remarkably hard to sell.

cammerfe

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2020, 10:38:50 PM »
It's been long enough ago that I simply don't remember the details of the somewhat 'free-handed' clearancing I observed in the back of the engine compartment on the driver's side. In any case, we pulled the engine as soon as we got it to Corrunker's house, and when the engine went back in, it had a set of Hookers on it. The engine was somewhat of a mish-mash because John had the idea that a 390 block was enough lighter than the 428 as to be more desirable. We went through several to find a 390 block that had as little core shift as possible and so most likely to take the larger bore. The first trip to the strip was when we took it to Columbus and we blew a head gasket on the first pass.

We stayed in the pits the entire night replacing the gasket and it promptly blew again in the morning---just before they called the meet due to rain. We towed home and pulled the engine. Deciding there wasn't enough 'tooth' to the deck surface, the block had to go back to Grand-Schaefer Auto to take enough of a cut to leave the surface rough enough to hold the gasket. The meet was rescheduled for the next weekend.

About 3 AM on that first all-night thrash, it became clear that we were getting in each other's way. I took my sleeping bag and crawled into the back of the T-bolt that Rick, John's brother had brought and got a couple of hours sleep wound around the mount points for the roll bar where the back seat would have been. Somehow I lived through the no-sleep, couple hours sleep during that two weekend period. And made it to work every day all week. I was a metallurgical process engineer in QC at T&C Livonia. All of us were attached to QC at that time. Trying to sleep on the back floor of a T-Bolt would have me in the hospital in traction for a few days now. Youth is wasted on the young! ;D

KS

WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2020, 03:10:49 PM »
KS,
Great story!

While we are at it, look here:
https://archive.petersen.org/pages/preview.php?ref=316810

This is a Jerry Harvey 69 Mustang FB at the June 1969 Dallas Springnationals.
I'm trying to hunt down all those results (don't have the usual sheet.....) because it's BEFORE the CCJ heads appeared at Sep 69 Indy.

So this car clearly says SS/J on it. SS/J=10.00 lb/in, and the 428CJ, even the flat hood version factored to "only" 340hp by NHRA, is too light with W/P=9.62.
So what was under the hood? A 428 2-barrel? Nah.

The 390/320-IP fits class with W/P=10.20.

Is there any chance that this car actually ran a 390-IP in Super Stock (WTF???)
It didn't win (Payne's 428CJ/360hp 69 Cobra FB won SS/J with its W/P=10.00, probably a deliberate move by Ford). But maybe somebody wanted to see if the 390IP would compete in SS, and since they already had plenty of 69 Mustangs around, they just tried a 390IP in one? Since you could take the engine 30-over and run any cam & intake you wanted, it might work, but with a 4300 Autolite on top??????

EDIT SS/J.1000
I found the answer so it seems.
The Harvey car DID run the 390/320-IP in SS/J.1000 and the 428CJ/340 in SS/I.950 classes in 1969.
Note in both pictures, here and Peterson, the car has SS/I painted on it, but at the 69 Springnationals SS/J is scribbled on the windshield - a 390/320-IP under the hood.
Here is some text and a picture from Paul Ceasrine on classracer from 8 years ago:

http://www.classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=32067

"I took the information off the quartermilestone site.
 They listed Jerry Harvey as running a 351/300 HP Cleveland
 in his 69' Mustang at the 1969 World Finals.
But after checking, I found out he ran a 428 Cobra-Jet (non-Ram Air)
 'no hood scoop car' combination in SS/I for 1969.
And later in the year, he ran the 69' Mustang with a 390/320 HP engine combination in SS/J.
  Last edited by Paul Ceasrine; 01-17-2012 at 02:35 PM."



EDIT
Another fun fact as I go thru these results.
From the picture below it looks like a 58 Ford, none other than a 332/265-4v FE, was runner-up in L/SA=13.00 class. It was won by a FUEL INJECTED 4-speed HYDRAMATIC Sedan Delivery. Wonder how many injected Sedan Deliveries left the assembly line? As for the number of Hydramatic Sedan Deliveries, ZERO. It wouldn't even fit without cutting. The doggy old 332 should have won this "stock class" race.


https://archive.petersen.org/pages/preview.php?ref=314788
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 10:37:25 PM by WerbyFord »

cammerfe

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2020, 08:33:40 PM »
During the time I was involved with 'Stock' and 'Super Stock', NHRA had only 'A' through 'E' Super. They started dividing up about the same time I took a step back and focused on my street cars and what racing I did was with Brother Lon's '67 427 TP car. I left FoMoCo and so didn't have the daily interface With the Corrunker Brothers and the other racers that were close by. I still helped out at CorBan Performance on occasion. (Corrunker/Bannister)

KS

WerbyFord

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Re: Canadian CJ Heads
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2020, 09:07:27 PM »
During the time I was involved with 'Stock' and 'Super Stock', NHRA had only 'A' through 'E' Super. They started dividing up about the same time I took a step back and focused on my street cars and what racing I did was with Brother Lon's '67 427 TP car. I left FoMoCo and so didn't have the daily interface With the Corrunker Brothers and the other racers that were close by. I still helped out at CorBan Performance on occasion. (Corrunker/Bannister)

KS

1969 was the single year that the SS classes went down to 10.00
The bottom of SS was the W/P=9.50 class in 1967-68-70-71 (at least) but in 1969 there was the SS/J=10.00 class, which the big 1969 Cobra fastbacks did well in as their W/P came in at exactly 3600/360=10.00 (plus of course the 428CJ was still way underrated at 360 factored HP).

I've figured out what cars won all the SS and SSA classes for 1969 Springnationals except for Arthur Evans, winner of SS/H=9.00 class. IF it was a Mustang that would be a 69 coupe or fastback 428cj/360hp shaker car. But it could have been a Brand X, I cant find Arthur Evans anywhere else.

I don't know anybody who has eg the National Dragster results sheet that list the car makes.
1969 Springnationals was the last big race before the CCJ heads so the last chance to compare.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 10:11:32 AM by WerbyFord »