Author Topic: Iron adjustable rocker breakage  (Read 1472 times)

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Rory428

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Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« on: September 09, 2020, 11:43:59 AM »
Upfront, I want to state that I am not a "pro" engine builder, but I have been building and racing my own FEs since the mid 70s, and have never been very concerned about pushrod length, since the rocker arm geometry is pretty much fixed by design of the FEs rocker arm stands height, so as long as the pushrod was long enough to span the distance between the lifter and the rocker adjusting screws, I figured that was "good enough". I have used nothing but factory cast iron heads, and flat tappet cams, and even with pretty agressive flat tappet solid cams, well over .650" lift, 7000 RPM shifts, and the valve springs needed to work with them, I never had any issues with rocker or pushrod life, although I did have periodic shaft breakage, before I started using end supports , actually mostly the Oregon Cam rocker support system , since the early 80s. Over the past several years, many here, and on other FE groups, said that the rocker screws should have no more than 2 or 3 threads showing below the bottom of the rocker arm body. So, when I put the mild 428 CJ together for my 59, I was somewhat concerned that with the standard length ball & cup pushrods that I have been using for decades on various FEs , would require the adjusting screws on my factory iron adjustable rockers to be cranked down so far that only a couple of threads would be above the rocker body. So for the initial cam break in and dyno pulls, I installed my Erson roller rockers, as they fit with the rocker screws about 1/2 way, and I had been driving the first 500 miles with the Ersons, although since the cam in this 428 is a mild solid flat tappet (.518" lift, 228 @ .050 dur), I wanted to put the iron rockers on. I ordered a set of custom pushrods from Smith Brothers, that are 9.450", which is .100" longer than what I had with the Ersons, and installed the iron rockers on new shafts and another Oregon Cam support assembly. Put it all together, the adjusting screws had the supposed ideal 2 threads showing below the rocker bodies, and took it for a drive. Ran great, and seemed noticeably quieter that the aluminum Ersons, so I decided to head out for a local cruise night. About 10 miles from home, all of a sudden, there was a louding ticking noise, and it started running a bit rough, so I turned around, and headed for home. As I drove , it started getting louder, and started backfiring thru the carb,  & running very jerky, about 2 miles from home, it got so bad I couldn`t make it up a moderate hill, so pulled over, and had my wife tow me home with my truck and a tow strap. I pulled the valve covers, and found 4 broken rocker arms, 3 exhaust. 1 intake, all were split at the threaded section, and all still had the adjusting screws threaded into the broken pieces. Also I found 2 bent pushrods on the adjacent rocker for cylinder # 3 & 7. I replaced all the rockers , with another set of iron rockers, retaining the same Oregon Cam supports, and reinstalled the 9.350" Comp pushrods. I had to crank the adjusting screws almost all the way down, and since, I have driven the car another 300 miles, including a few 5500 RPM blasts thru the gears. (When the other rockers broke, I had yet to go over 3000 RPM). So did having the longer pushrods cause this, or did I possibly have 1 fluke rocker break, and the resulting cylinder pressure from the exhaust unable to escape, cross thru the intake manifold, and somehow cause the other rockers to fail? All I know at this point is, the shorter "wrong" pushrods seem to be working fine, with the rocker screws cranked way down, and the more ideal length pushrods gave me grief. Any thoughts? The only time I ever had a iron rocker break before, was when a connecting rod broke, and the piston whacked the head hard enough to bend a valve.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

wayne

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2020, 12:16:43 PM »
Do you have jam nuts on the adjusters if you do you you will need to spot face the rocker arms or they will crack

WConley

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2020, 12:35:47 PM »
Rory -

I bet the custom Smith Brothers pushrods are larger diameter than stock.  With the adjusters in close to the bottom of the rocker, that may be allowing the pushrod to contact the rocker body at full lift.  The resulting wedging force will try to split the end of the rocker off.

With the adjusters out more, the pushrod moves a bit further away from the body at full lift.

Just a guess without seeing the parts!  You shouldn't be breaking those iron rockers in any normal scenario.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

blykins

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2020, 01:28:24 PM »
Rory -

I bet the custom Smith Brothers pushrods are larger diameter than stock.  With the adjusters in close to the bottom of the rocker, that may be allowing the pushrod to contact the rocker body at full lift.  The resulting wedging force will try to split the end of the rocker off.

With the adjusters out more, the pushrod moves a bit further away from the body at full lift.

Just a guess without seeing the parts!  You shouldn't be breaking those iron rockers in any normal scenario.

That would be my guess too, not enough cup to rocker clearance.
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Rory428

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2020, 04:05:59 PM »
Ok, I took a closer look at the broken rockers, based on your opinions, found a few things. First, Wayne, no I am not using any jam nuts, just the stock 1 piece interference fit adjusting screws. I did have a few rockers where the threads did not have enough friction to stay in place to my liking, luckily I had a full pack of the old FPP .003 oversize adjusting screws, which worked great. Also, my new Smith Bros. pushrods are actually a bit thinner than the old units, 5/16'' rather than 11/32'', as a means to get a bit more pushrod to intake hole clearance. Also the cup diameter of the Smith Bros. is slightly smaller (.487'' vs .500'') and a bit shallower (.164'' vs .169'') than my old pushrods. That said, when I did look closer at the broken rockers, there was evidence of the pushrod cop contacting the rocker where the pushrod oil hole is. So my guess is the cup acted as a wedge, and forced itself between the adjusting screw, and the rocker body.Funny that there were no marks on the pushrod cups, but definite indentations on the rocker body at the oil hole. In addition, I thought that these were all OE Ford rocker arms, but upon a closer look, it became evident that the rockers I have are a mix of OE Ford (5750088 number in the rocker), and some aftermarket replacements, (likely Sealed Power or TRW). The Ford rockers have a machined flat at the back side of the rocker body, where the pushrod cup goes, while the aftermarket is just a rough cast surface. All the rockers that broke were non OE, although the ones that didn`t break (yet!) were a mix of OE and jobber. When I set a jobber rocker on the Smith Bros. pushrod, there was virtually zero clearance from the cup to the body, at zero lift, so as the rocker opened the valve, the cup was forced between the adjusting ball and the rocker body. Even on the Ford rocker, with the adjuster where I had them for the Smith Bros pushrods, there was very little clearance. Since I don`t like the idea of grinding any material from the rocker arm, I guess my only option is to order another set of pushrods that are about .050'' shorter than the current Smith Bros, which will allow the adjuster to sit a bit further down, and get the cup below the pinch point. I don`t really want to ''waste'' the Ersons on such a mild engine, plus the Ersons are noisier than the iron. I should also check my Isky iron rockers, as I believe they are machined in that area. The shorter pushrods would have the adjuster screw more centered in the rocker body, but to be honest, having so much screw sticking up above the rocker , with the longer pushrods did look kinda goofy. I will see if I can load a few photos I took of the rockers with my phone. Thanks for your thought on the issue.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Rory428

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2020, 04:56:20 PM »
Seems that I can`t upload photos directly from my phone here.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

SSdynosaur

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Re: Iron adjustable rocker breakage
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2020, 09:17:40 PM »
Rory, you may want to check the contact pattern on the valve tips. Your description indicates that your Oregon Cam support assembly may be placing the rocker shafts excessively high, putting the adjuster/pushrod cup into an early interference in the lift cycle. Personally, I always clearance those oil fed protrusions on the cast rockers for just this reason and have never lost a rocker due to breaking off the adjuster after clearancing. The "old", agricultural, method is that the vertical axis of the adjuster and the vertical axis of the pushrod should be perfectly aligned at exactly ½ gross lift; you can fudge a bit but not much if getting the geometry correct is important. Since your cam lift is very close to stock you may want to experiment with a stock set of rocker stands to determine if the Oregon support system is a problem. At any rate, my guess is that you may find your new pushrods are too long and need to go back to Smith's to be shortened. Good luck.