Author Topic: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE  (Read 8155 times)

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CaptCobrajet

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Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« on: September 04, 2020, 09:47:09 PM »
We ran this unit last week.  There was a little more in it, based on past info, but we ran out of time.  Customer was looking for around 800 hp, and 700-ish torque, so when we got past there, we didn't beat it on it too hard.  I had 31° timing in it, but it had a rather large dome by my standards, and a 72 cc chamber.  I usually run much smaller chambers, with just a bump dome, but these heads migrated from another project, so more dome was needed.  I think another 2.5 ° would have shown more power.  I reckon they can test that in the vehicle.

Cubic inch:                 535    (4.345 x 4.500)
Peak Horsepower:    893 at 6500 rpm
Peak Torque:             794 at 5100 rpm
Compression ratio:  13.5:1
Camshaft:                 .700 lift solid roller
Heads:                     BPE   MR Race Pro Port Edelbrock
Manifold:                 BPE modified BBM Tunnel Wedge
Carbs:                       940-ish cfm modified center squirters, inline with factory style linkage.


Blair Patrick

Stangman

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2020, 10:59:44 PM »
Very nice Blair just curious as to what block and what had to be modified for the extra stroke. 900 horse and mild, meaning what camshaft wise.

475fetoploader

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2020, 11:10:55 PM »
That’s outstanding!
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

e philpott

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2020, 12:29:15 AM »
Holy moly! 2.5 degrees away from 900 hp with a 700 lift cam ? Am I reading this right ?

Ghoughton

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2020, 06:43:17 AM »
You have a knack for getting more with less.....extremely impressive

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2020, 06:49:47 AM »
Very nice Blair just curious as to what block and what had to be modified for the extra stroke. 900 horse and mild, meaning what camshaft wise.

It's a BBM iron block.  No mods to the block for 4.500.  I used a 2" rod journal, and you still have to clearance the back four rods so they don't bump the camshaft.  About the same as a 4.375 with a 2.200 crankpin.  I consider it mild because it doesn't have to turn big rpm, it uses stainless valves....no titanium, it has 750# over the nose, .700 lift....an early Drag Week grind like I used in Miller's Cougar several years back, and low timing requirement.  It has compression, but not "end of the scale" compression.  It also doesn't require a bunch of funky heim jointed carb linkage, or Dominator carbs that don't drive very well unless wide open.  It's a fairly basic combo of stuff that works together.
Blair Patrick

ToddK

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2020, 07:33:57 AM »
Wow, that is impressive. But not unexpected from BP.

KMcCullah

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2020, 09:13:29 AM »
That's some darn righteous FE steam, Blair. Nice work! The red truck NEEDS a 4.500 arm.
Kevin McCullah


Joey120373

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2020, 09:27:35 AM »
Wow, that is pretty impressive stuff. Curious about the crank and rods.

Was this head one that required a modified valve train ( forget what you call it, you install a bar across the head because ) ?

Amazing.

Stangman

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2020, 01:00:03 PM »
Excellent explanation easy to understand and it makes the build more impressive. See you at the Beaver

frnkeore

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2020, 12:35:16 PM »
Blair, that's outstanding, from a engine that large. 1.67 HP per CI.

Can you tell us the valve size and how much the heads flowed.
Frank

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2020, 01:29:12 PM »
Blair, that's outstanding, from a engine that large. 1.67 HP per CI.

Can you tell us the valve size and how much the heads flowed.

This particular one has 2.220 intake and 1.680 exhaust valves.  I didn't intend to turn it real high, so I used the small valves to make torque where it wants to reside rpm-wise.  That makes it real snappy with the inches and 13.5 static.  If I was going to the end with it, more cam, a different set of angles on the valvejob, a 2.300 valve with a little more cross section in the port, would all have added up to quite a bit more power.  It also would change the operating range.  This engine will run for years reliably with a 7K shift point and 7300 through the traps.

The heads flow pretty good.  Nevermind the numbers, as it is only one yardstick of several attributes that matter.
Blair Patrick

wcbrowning

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2020, 05:25:25 PM »
What would you estimate output to be if this engine was 10.5:1?


Blair, that's outstanding, from a engine that large. 1.67 HP per CI.

Can you tell us the valve size and how much the heads flowed.

This particular one has 2.220 intake and 1.680 exhaust valves.  I didn't intend to turn it real high, so I used the small valves to make torque where it wants to reside rpm-wise.  That makes it real snappy with the inches and 13.5 static.  If I was going to the end with it, more cam, a different set of angles on the valvejob, a 2.300 valve with a little more cross section in the port, would all have added up to quite a bit more power.  It also would change the operating range.  This engine will run for years reliably with a 7K shift point and 7300 through the traps.

The heads flow pretty good.  Nevermind the numbers, as it is only one yardstick of several attributes that matter.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2020, 06:46:01 PM »
What would you estimate output to be if this engine was 10.5:1?


I suspect it would lose 30-35 hp per point of compression.  Probably around 800 power and 700 torque.  I am thinking real serious about doing one like that for my Hondo Day Cruiser, so I may get to find out.  A dish piston would be more efficient, so losing the dome would work back in the right direction power wise.
Blair Patrick

e philpott

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2020, 08:04:48 PM »
What kind of compression can you get with a flat top ?

wcbrowning

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2020, 08:48:18 PM »
Your combination is intriguing.  I was wondering if a 1.888" Honda journal would have been necessary to obtain clearance, but you did it with 2".  So do you think 4.6" stroke is feasible with a Honda journal?  Would the further reduction in crank pin overlap yielded by such a combination be of too much of a concern, assuming a desire for longevity for the street with occasional track use (or even regular track use)?

Given a modern billet crank, where would you start to feel uncomfortable, regarding crank pin overlap, for a big inch street/strip engine?  Would you recommend center counterweights?

I suspect it would lose 30-35 hp per point of compression.  Probably around 800 power and 700 torque.  I am thinking real serious about doing one like that for my Hondo Day Cruiser, so I may get to find out.  A dish piston would be more efficient, so losing the dome would work back in the right direction power wise.

What would you estimate output to be if this engine was 10.5:1?

This particular one has 2.220 intake and 1.680 exhaust valves.  I didn't intend to turn it real high, so I used the small valves to make torque where it wants to reside rpm-wise.  That makes it real snappy with the inches and 13.5 static.  If I was going to the end with it, more cam, a different set of angles on the valvejob, a 2.300 valve with a little more cross section in the port, would all have added up to quite a bit more power.  It also would change the operating range.  This engine will run for years reliably with a 7K shift point and 7300 through the traps.

The heads flow pretty good.  Nevermind the numbers, as it is only one yardstick of several attributes that matter.

Blair, that's outstanding, from a engine that large. 1.67 HP per CI.

Can you tell us the valve size and how much the heads flowed.

We ran this unit last week.  There was a little more in it, based on past info, but we ran out of time.  Customer was looking for around 800 hp, and 700-ish torque, so when we got past there, we didn't beat it on it too hard.  I had 31° timing in it, but it had a rather large dome by my standards, and a 72 cc chamber.  I usually run much smaller chambers, with just a bump dome, but these heads migrated from another project, so more dome was needed.  I think another 2.5 ° would have shown more power.  I reckon they can test that in the vehicle.

Cubic inch:                 535    (4.345 x 4.500)
Peak Horsepower:    893 at 6500 rpm
Peak Torque:             794 at 5100 rpm
Compression ratio:  13.5:1
Camshaft:                 .700 lift solid roller
Heads:                     BPE   MR Race Pro Port Edelbrock
Manifold:                 BPE modified BBM Tunnel Wedge
Carbs:                       940-ish cfm modified center squirters, inline with factory style linkage.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 03:05:58 AM by wcbrowning »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2020, 12:24:39 AM »
I don't think there is enough bearing surface area with the Honda.  Even the hybrid bearing Honda with SBC width just doesn't have enough load patch area in my opinion.  If it was a drag engine that saw VERY frequent teardown, the Honda might live.  I like the 2" pin for durability. I just think that is about as far as I would go.  I have several with more power and torque running long term with the 2" rods.  As far as overlap, the Crower piece won't give up NA.  It might become an issue with serious power adders, but the crank can take alot.

Eric, I can get past 14:1 with a flat top if I run the chamber program shallow and use a small chamber.  This engine was a little bit of an unplanned mating of a rotating assembly and a pair of heads with the chamber at 72cc.  I don't think the dome, designed like it is, hurt it bad, but it does hurt.  A dish or a small "bump" dome will excite combustion better than just a flat top.  Sometimes we make the valve relief an oval slot and then a small bump rather than a flat with plunge pockets.
Blair Patrick

wcbrowning

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2020, 03:07:56 AM »
Thank you for your thoughts!

I don't think there is enough bearing surface area with the Honda.  Even the hybrid bearing Honda with SBC width just doesn't have enough load patch area in my opinion.  If it was a drag engine that saw VERY frequent teardown, the Honda might live.  I like the 2" pin for durability. I just think that is about as far as I would go.  I have several with more power and torque running long term with the 2" rods.  As far as overlap, the Crower piece won't give up NA.  It might become an issue with serious power adders, but the crank can take alot.

Eric, I can get past 14:1 with a flat top if I run the chamber program shallow and use a small chamber.  This engine was a little bit of an unplanned mating of a rotating assembly and a pair of heads with the chamber at 72cc.  I don't think the dome, designed like it is, hurt it bad, but it does hurt.  A dish or a small "bump" dome will excite combustion better than just a flat top.  Sometimes we make the valve relief an oval slot and then a small bump rather than a flat with plunge pockets.

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2020, 11:06:43 AM »
Always center counterweights with the long strokes if using a billet.  Much better harmonics, and easier to balance.  The economy forging from Scat can't go this long, and it doesn't have the big centers in the forging, but with billets, it is a machining operation.  Lots of cases where the custom forged Scat is just fine......I use them frequently, but past 4.375, I sure do like the center counterweights.
Blair Patrick

mbrunson427

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 10:31:47 AM »
I'm a little behind here, Blair had sent me these to post up.




Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2020, 11:05:07 PM »
WOW! That is impressive, can't hardly wait to see how mine turns out and what it makes . 
Bobby-   Carlsbad, NM

cjshaker

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2020, 10:19:17 AM »
Hard to read the dyno shot, but it shows well over 700 ft lbs of torque from 4500 to redline. Ports look fairly small, given the CI and intended use, so velocity must be pretty good, and the modified BBM TW must work pretty darned well with those heads.

Scott proved that the cam is streetable, so this engine could be driven on the street, if driven correctly, and the valvetrain was maintained in good order.

I'm curious how you got 900+ cfm out of the center squirters. What main body did you use, if you're willing to give up that info? How much power do you think a pair of standard 660s would give up?
Doug Smith


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Rory428

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2020, 11:21:40 AM »
Doug, not sure if these are what they started with, but Holley used to offer larger center squirter modes, around 850 cfm if I recall correctly.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

cjshaker

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2020, 01:34:17 PM »
Doug, not sure if these are what they started with, but Holley used to offer larger center squirter modes, around 850 cfm if I recall correctly.

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks, Rory.
I know Blair can work some magic on the 660s, but that's a big jump from 660 to 940. I don't see how a 660 main body could be worked to get that big of an improvement, and I'm not up on the aftermarket bodies that are available.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

475fetoploader

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2020, 01:44:32 PM »
Original list number 4223 850 cfm center squirter.
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

475fetoploader

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2020, 01:46:16 PM »
I’d have to look it up, Chevrolet might have even put these on a Corvette 427, 1969ish?
1967  Fairlane Tunnel Wedge on Proports.
1975 4x4 461 f.e. 4speed Dual Quads on 38’s
Love many, Trust few. Always paddle your own canoe.

DubyaTF

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2020, 10:40:32 AM »
It's a BBM iron block.  No mods to the block for 4.500.  I used a 2" rod journal, and you still have to clearance the back four rods so they don't bump the camshaft.  About the same as a 4.375 with a 2.200 crankpin.
[/quote]

  This made me wonder if it's possible to just "correct" the clearance issue with a smaller lobe profile and a larger rocker ratio for the same overall effect? Or is it essential to keep the cam size as is to have the shape/ramp to work as intended? At what ratio does it create too much angle on the pushrods?

   I've never had the opportunity to build anything out of the ordinary so these builds will always create what if ideas.
Jeff

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Mild 535 inch Hillbilly Prep Nostalgia FE
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2020, 09:39:43 AM »
I have 4 different List 850 center squirters on hand.
4224, 4543, are the most common.

Seems like I have maybe 15 or so on the shelf. Very cool, but a big step up from a 660.