390 Build

[aarons428]

I'm working on a guys 54 f100 that someone swapped in a 390. I got a 67 390 out of a car that he wants me to get rebuilt and wants to have a "strong 400hp" out of it. What would you guys suggest for parts to get me to that point? Please no negative comments I've tried asking on facebook and they just suggested going to a windsor but obviously I'm not doing that.
Thanks for the help!

It does have block hugger headers on it already. I do know he wants it to sound healthy but I know that doesn't mean a whole lot. It will be more of a toy than a daily driver.
With out porting what can 67 heads handle?

[thatdarncat]

Lots of ways to get there. You might want to let us know what kind of budget this has, and how much of the 390 engine you want to retain, for example are you keeping the cast iron heads? Also, since this is already an engine swap - does it already have headers? Does it have to use stock exhaust manifolds?  Edit to add, probably want to let us know how they are going to use it ( daily driver or just occasional toy ), how “rowdy” do they want it, or how much will they tolerate? Etc.

[Gaugster]

Be sure to comb through the dyno results forum to gather some ideas. Why does he want 400HP? Is is 400HP at the crank or wheels? A comment like "Strong 400HP" makes me think a high torque down low application but it leaves so much up to interruption. Here's a partial list of considerations and things you need to learn from your guy. Some of it repeats from the prior post.

Budget?
Driving style?
What transmission and rear end gearing is planned?
Is good vacuum at idle and light cruise needed for accessories?
Desired RPM maximum limit?
Premium fuel only?

Good luck!

[SMA390]

definitely get a budget to start and work from there. If it needs  bored out, I would look at a stroker kit from Barry, a performer rpm manifold , updated ignition ( MSD box ) good valve job and maybe clean up the heads some unless there is money for after market heads. If you had money for heads I would just get with one of the builders here and buy a set ready to bolt on, you have headers so I would run 3" open exhaust straight out no mufflers I would get a cam from one of the builders here that will match the other parts and based on any vacuum accessories, that would definitely push you over the 400 hp mark..
You could also check out Jays article on his web page for Car Craft.. it has good info and parts on  390 build like your wanting

[chilly460]

I'm going to make some assumptions based on what you're saying.  I'm thinking a truck like that is going to be around 3700lbs, and he'll be OK with at least a 3.50 gear and 2500rpm stall.  This is still pretty mild but a notch above "daily driver". 

If it were me spec'ing it, I'd go with 750cfm Holley, Performer RPM intake, TFS heads, rebuilt stock rods with ARPs, stock crank, and an Autotec piston, get it somewhere around 9.5:1 compression.  If he has it in the budget, hydraulic roller in the 224/230  .550-.575"  on a 110lsa.  It'll make well over 400hp, tons of low and midrange, and it'll have enough sound to be cool at cruises. 

Any iron head is going to need a full rebuild, and at least some bowl cleanup and likely larger valves to support an honest 400hp without putting a good bit of cam in it.  If that's the case, to me it makes sense to jump right to a TFS.  You get excellent ports, modern chamber, hardened seats. 

Performer RPM is no brainer for a build like this. 

Roller cam is definitely a luxury at this level but alleviates startup concerns, doesn't require fancy oils, and will help make use of the good heads. 

Combo like this would absolutely scoot in an old F100

[FERoadster]

I'm of the really budget rebuild class of person.
First off I'd go with a 428 crank and then see what Jay's book says about a F-427 or another dual plane, headers. Single plane such as a POS or Street  Dominator might not meet his goals. To me EDEL. RPM 's are the new belly button (sic.) such as a SBC. Things can be more reasonably priced.  Heads will cost near $2000 so look for a set of CJ or possibly 427 LR heads. Cost will be about 1/3 less than Trick flow or Edelbrock RPM heads. 

On a budget to get 400HP and torque he needs for a 54 Ford PU he'll be happy. I'd gear with a 3.50 or 3.70.  3.70 will get you  with taller tires that fit the fenders better.

Richard >>> FERoadster
PS:
Also as 410Bruce decided in his post >>> run with what I have.

[hwoods]

Recipe from a shop in Houston  claim 350-400 HP

390 block bored, honed, decked and align honed
Performance camshaft:
214/214 @ .050
.490 lift
110 lobe center
New performance cam bearings
Balanced rotating assembly with balancer
Reground 3.78" stroke crankshaft
Resized rods with ARP® rod bolts
New performance bearings
Performance pistons with Molly® rings
10 to 1 compression ratio
New performance timing set
New performance high volume oil pump
Cylinder heads
2.06"/1.66" stainless steel valves
110 lbs valve springs
3 angle seats
bronze guides
positive seals
Reman rocker arm assembly with new shafts
New performance gasket set
Painted Ford blue or gold
Bowl porting
Stage 2 porting ( Add $ 795.00)
Dial in cam
 

Price $ 3999.00 exchange or a $ 400 core charge plus shipping

 

[My427stang]

It was said before but really the number means nothing, you need to sit down with the guy and find out what he expects, what he doesn’t know, what you can teach him, and then come up with a plan with a good budget in mind.

Most of my planning for engines for other people takes more time discussing what they think they want and coming up with some thing that will really work well for them than the assembly.

 There should be no surprises when the engine delivers. Good thing is 400 hp is pretty easy, but everything from vacuum For power breaks to what the idle will sound like , all matters to these guys. 15 ways to Sunday to make 400 hp so good easy start, but find out how the truck will exactly be used, build for tha,  and you will be his hero

[aarons428]

I just remembered he has a 66 Impala SS that has a ZZ427 crate motor which runs about 480hp/490ftlbs so he knows what to expect. I will talk to him soon on budget and expectations.

[chilly460]

Guess it all depends what he expects, if he wants it similar to that crate 427, that will be more than a casual build for a 390

[WerbyFord]

I just remembered he has a 66 Impala SS that has a ZZ427 crate motor which runs about 480hp/490ftlbs so he knows what to expect. I will talk to him soon on budget and expectations.

The ZZ427 Rat is a nice combo - only $13,000, and with a warranty.
If that is the level your friend wants, it's pretty easy with an FE.

EE427 Recipe
(Ford equivalent of Chevy's ZZ427)
4.233 x 3.784 427 FE
Edelbrock heads, just cleaned up so they flow like they did box stock in the 1990s before 2% inflation hit.
Barry R used to do this.
Ed RPM intake, similar intake to ZZ427
780 Holley, same carb as ZZ427
Same cam as ZZ427, hyd roller
224-234-110 ICL=110 .527 .544 lift
10.1 CR same as ZZ427
2" dyno headers, same as I used to match the ZZ427 Dyno test
Truly an equivalent Build to the ZZ427
I even painted the Gonkulator version orange. Ok, no.

Torq 494 at 4100
Powr 485 at 5500
Again, truly the equal of Chevy's ZZ427.
There are better FE heads (as there are better Chevy heads) but the FE holds up pretty well against this Rat.

Your buddy's little tryck is likely a lot lighter than that fat 66 Impala (they got fat after 1964) so should make for some good clean fun.

NOW - as for that FE 390 with C7AE-A Tiny Port stock unported heads, and 400hp? That will be tougher.
As for that one, looks like it's not THAT hard. I actually just took the EE427 above and changed it to a 396, swapping heads:
4.08 x 3.784 396cid
c7ae-a heads, bone stock with 5-angle valve job
Ed RPM intake
780 Holley
10.1 CR
224-234-110 .527 .544 hyd roller cam, same as Ford EE427 and Chev ZZ427 above
2x33 headers

Surprisingly, this Gonkulated to
Torq 426 at 4000
Powr 400 at 5400

Of course with better heads you could do much more, but there's your 400hp if that is the goal.
On the dyno anyway - the block hugger headers might eat a few ponies.

[frnkeore]

This is what I get with a CC, 224/234-.524x.574 HFT (5433/5446 lobes) and a good bowl blend, C1AE, 2.09x1.65 head. 259x205 cfm @ .500, from Stan Weiss site. 750 cfm x 180 manifold. 9.99/1 CR. 1.81 x 14.5" shorty headers

[chilly460]

BTW thanks to Barry for posting this stuff, I can't find too much in the way of these more "basic" 390 builds as far as dyno results.

Edelbrock package with a cam larger than what we're discussing just eeks out 400hp. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpD7fpKWpXw

Cleaned up stock heads with CJs doesn't get there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjxO7sND__Q

Doesn't get there again with CJ valved D2TEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFFGDqQpx2E&t=47s

Doesn't get ther again with iron heads but similar other parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzKo8nKDoCk&t=11s

Edelbrocks and a 230* once again eek over 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftQzzTis4iE&t=24s

This edition of Ebrocks and a 280H didn't get to 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxUNbXov_Y

Ebrock topend and a 270H well under 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXPaAkaPBAM

I see references all the time to combo requests, declaringe you throw a 750 and a small flat tappet and headers on a 390 and it's a 400hp deal, and that's just not the case.  I ran a 390/750/Perf RPM/bowl blended Edelbrocks/270H/headers....it just wasn't that strong.  It's still not "fast" but the BBMs and 224* Survival roller with some plenum work woke it up a ton, and would be the minimum I'd run if I was trying to make a customer happy. 

[My427stang]

Talk to the guy

I own a deep breathing 489 Mustang, but built my truck to peak at 5000.  That Chevy discussion is all speculation.  Pick his brain, strong 400 HP doesn't say ANYTHING, need power brakes?  Need some chop in the idle, HATES chop and wants smooth idle?  Wants gas mileage, wants it to spin 6000 RPM? Any chance for EFI later?  Overdrive?  A zillion questions

Easiest thing to do is to work out what he expects, then build to it or more as long as it matches the personality he wants.

[frnkeore]

Edelbrocks and a 230* once again eek over 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftQzzTis4iE&t=24s

This edition of Ebrocks and a 280H didn't get to 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxUNbXov_Y

The above engines, appear to be almost identical. Maybe Barry could fill us in, on what is different?

On the Stan Weiss site, the out of the box Edel's flow,  the same as the bowl ported C1's with CJ valves but, the C1's flow a little more on the Ex.

With a FT cam, it appears that you need about 230 @ .050 to make 400 HP.

[WerbyFord]

Edelbrocks and a 230* once again eek over 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftQzzTis4iE&t=24s

This edition of Ebrocks and a 280H didn't get to 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxUNbXov_Y

The above engines, appear to be almost identical. Maybe Barry could fill us in, on what is different?

On the Stan Weiss site, the out of the box Edel's flow,  the same as the bowl ported C1's with CJ valves but, the C1's flow a little more on the Ex.

With a FT cam, it appears that you need about 230 @ .050 to make 400 HP.

Near as I can tell, the only diff is the cam - Comp 270H => 387hp, Comp 280H => 412hp.

(EDIT see below post Frank you're right, they're BOTH 280H cams. So they look identical except for the carb size, 735cfm vs 750cfm which makes no difference, and 4 cubic inches due to .020 bigger bore, again nil diff.
I don't know where the 25hp difference would come from.
Maybe the secondary wasn't opening all the way on one of them?
If I Gonkulate the 387hp version with a 450cfm carb it comes in about right on, ie secondary barely opening.)

(EDITEDIT: The last dyno in your set of links, the PBAM link, dyno'd at 364hp. Gonkulator puts it at 401hp. Also a "750 vac sec" - I wonder if that particular carb had a habit of not opening on the dyno? Maybe it had the L78 "Black" spring in it, which is actually a spare front coil for the car in case you break one during hard cornering? That would make sense but I cant imagine Barry not making sure the secondaries opened all the way. So long ago, who knows.)

Maybe Barry R will chime in with more.

The Gonkulator comes in higher than most of Barry R's 390 dyno tests, but hits his 445 dyno tests mostly right on. We never could figure a reason why - the Gonk hits the average 390 build right on, +/- 3% or so.
A lot of FE dyno headers are too big for the little 390 builds. Headers are complicated.

Yes, the c1ae-a etc heads with CJ valves can be made to flow like 428CJ heads with some work, and even like Ed heads now that the Ed heads don't flow as well as they did pre-2000 or so. But, the c1ae-a etc still wont make the torque and power of the Ed heads because the velocity and burn isn't as good. The Ed
 heads aren't that great, but theyre better than most of the 1960s-era Fe iron.

[frnkeore]

Werby,
I copied this directly from the you tube text:

387 HP, Cam is a Comp 280H hydraulic with 230 duration at .050 and .519 lift. Carb is a 750 vacuum secondary.

412 HP,  Comp 280H hydraulic flat tappet cam, factory 735 CJ carburetor.

That's why I asked the question.

I suppose the ring pack, could account for the some of the HP, if they were different and also the quench?

Also, I found a C8AE-H head on the SW site that also flows, 266 CFM (w/smaller than CJ valves), done by a friend that I got to know after that.

Yes, there is more to it than cfm but, velocity can be tested and swirl. That would tell the story. Has there been any direct tests between cast iron a Edel heads of the same cfm rating?

Edel heads run, 258 (CJ60059), 250, 249 & 248 (6006), out of the box. There is also one listed at 270, (CJ60069). The C1AE, is 259, with just bowl work and 282 with bowl and port blend (I averaged the above C1 numbers). The C8AE-H, is ported using just a 2.055 intake and 1.558 EX and is 266. All at .600 lift. I'll ask Steve about it, next time I talk to him.

Ex was 205 on the C1, 174 on the C8, 174 to 183 on all the out of the box Edel's.

[Heo]

Edelbrocks and a 230* once again eek over 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftQzzTis4iE&t=24s

This edition of Ebrocks and a 280H didn't get to 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxUNbXov_Y

The above engines, appear to be almost identical. Maybe Barry could fill us in, on what is different?

On the Stan Weiss site, the out of the box Edel's flow,  the same as the bowl ported C1's with CJ valves but, the C1's flow a little more on the Ex.

With a FT cam, it appears that you need about 230 @ .050 to make 400 HP.

Near as I can tell, the only diff is the cam - Comp 270H => 387hp, Comp 280H => 412hp.
Maybe Barry R will chime in with more.

The Gonkulator comes in higher than most of Barry R's 390 dyno tests, but hits his 445 dyno tests mostly right on. We never could figure a reason why - the Gonk hits the average 390 build right on, +/- 3% or so.
A lot of FE dyno headers are too big for the little 390 builds. Headers are complicated.

Yes, the c1ae-a etc heads with CJ valves can be made to flow like 428CJ heads with some work, and even like Ed heads now that the Ed heads don't flow as well as they did pre-2000 or so. But, the c1ae-a etc still wont make the torque and power of the Ed heads because the velocity and burn isn't as good. The Ed
 heads aren't that great, but theyre better than most of the 1960s-era Fe iron.

Hi Werby can you gonk my 390 .060 over ,10.47 to one, C4 heads with bowlwork and CJ valves, S 282 cam ,Streetmaster portmatched and plenum opened up, one inch four hole spacer, 750 vacuum ,cast iron shortyheaders

[frnkeore]

I changed out the cam, in my program, with no other changes to anything.

I used the std CC, HFT, 5216 lobe, 280/230, on 110 LSA, set at 105.

[WerbyFord]

Heo,
Gonkulator says
Torq 427 at 3800
Powr 406 at 5700
Kind of soggy below 3000 but that's when the Streetmaster starts to howl.
Make that +/- 10hp due to the variance in how those CJ-upgraded heads turn out.

Is it in that big 64 Gal with the kneebangers (bumperguards)? Trans / gears / exhaust?
I had to take those off my dad's car to fit it in my tiny 20x20 2nd garage, as big as the building codes would allow.

[Heo]

Heo,
Gonkulator says
Torq 427 at 3800
Powr 406 at 5700
Kind of soggy below 3000 but that's when the Streetmaster starts to howl.
Make that +/- 10hp due to the variance in how those CJ-upgraded heads turn out.

Is it in that big 64 Gal with the kneebangers (bumperguards)? Trans / gears / exhaust?
I had to take those off my dad's car to fit it in my tiny 20x20 2nd garage, as big as the building codes would allow.

Werby,

Yes it's in the kneebanger Galaxie.  C.O.M with a converter built for a couple of hundred rpm higher stal speed
2,80 ish gear, don't remember exactly, 2,78 or 2,82 255/ 70 15 tires 2,5 inch exhaust with straight through mufflers just in front of the bumper
Yes kind of...I would not say soggy but a little tame below 2,5 to 3000 rpm ,when it really starts to pull
what would a performer rpm do for it?
I have all the parts to build a 447 stroker just had not had the time to do it. What would it make with the same combination?

[WerbyFord]

Heo,
Well, a lot to do here. Rather than us hi-jacking this post, how bout can you start a thread on your car, maybe copy our posts into it (or we can just re-create what's here so far).

With a MX trans (beefed I hope?), maybe 2200 stall, and 2.80 gear I'd say that big Gal (I'm guessing about 4170 curb weight?) is way too tall for that cam & intake. But, lots of fairly easy things to try.

I upgraded my dad's tired (37 years since we rebuilt it) 396cid to a 440cid and he was quite happy. It would even fishtail the 3.00 gear now and then. I'm partial to those 60s Gals.

[frnkeore]

I talked to Steve (Magnotti) today, regarding porting FE heads. He said that he increased the velocity with his port work and the smaller valve/higher flow, would also confirm that. His exhaust flowed 192 and 211 with a 2" pipe @ .600. The key to doing what he was able to do, was keeping a larger radius on the short turn, while cutting it back. He did those C8 heads back in '95 and the intake flanges, were not enlarged.

He also said that one reason that he did well with it, is because he's a Pontiac guy and the later Pontiac's are also 14 deg valves. He doesn't just open the ports to as much flow as he an get but, shoots for a 72% ratio so, he does the Ex first and then shoots for it to be 72% of the of the intake.

[Heo]

Heo,
Well, a lot to do here. Rather than us hi-jacking this post, how bout can you start a thread on your car, maybe copy our posts into it (or we can just re-create what's here so far).

With a MX trans (beefed I hope?), maybe 2200 stall, and 2.80 gear I'd say that big Gal (I'm guessing about 4170 curb weight?) is way too tall for that cam & intake. But, lots of fairly easy things to try.

I upgraded my dad's tired (37 years since we rebuilt it) 396cid to a 440cid and he was quite happy. It would even fishtail the 3.00 gear now and then. I'm partial to those 60s Gals.

Your right Werby i start a new thread

[Barry_R]

Edelbrocks and a 230* once again eek over 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftQzzTis4iE&t=24s

This edition of Ebrocks and a 280H didn't get to 400hp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPxUNbXov_Y

The above engines, appear to be almost identical. Maybe Barry could fill us in, on what is different?

On the Stan Weiss site, the out of the box Edel's flow,  the same as the bowl ported C1's with CJ valves but, the C1's flow a little more on the Ex.

With a FT cam, it appears that you need about 230 @ .050 to make 400 HP.

Might have been the 735 Holley versus the low dollar 750 - the 735 is a better carb, and allows better jetting control on the secondary side.  Might have been the fact that the better one was a smaller bore, vey low mileage block and had better ring seal.  Might have been a better day for testing - even though correction factors compensate for many things, a hot rainy day will still affect numbers compared to a cold dry day.  I might have just done a better job of tuning on the "good" one that day...