Flathead I6 226 H Series Camshaft Timing. Odd

[chris401]

It is an 8N Funk conversion. Forget the timing marks for reference. It has a stock 8N flat 4 crank pulley on it. I am doing this based of what I know about the internal combustion engine, or thought I did.

With the throttle closed warm static compression readings were 106-119 psi. Next I performed a cylinder leak down test. For you guys who have dealt with these you know the sparkplug is over the valves so finding TDC with a screw driver won't work. Limited over head room due to the gas tank location. The crank key way is at 6 o'clock with #1 TDC but the crank pulley is trapped by the axle pin housing.

Now to the question at hand.

Is it characteristic for an Industrial Flathead Ford to begin to open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke? Across the cylinders both valves were not closed until I rolled the engine backwards by hand. At this point it was on the front side of piston TDC. When rolling backwards into the compression stroke could gain up to 40/45% moderate cylinder pressure. At that point the fan belt would slip on the pulley bottoming the piston until the intake valve opened.

In a nutshell it feels like the intake valve is closing with the piston at BDC and exhaust opening about 10° before piston TDC. I know this thing was rebuilt by Fred Jones in 1965. Other than milling the head was he known for any cam wizardry like this?

I looked online to see if the rod journals were offset with the beam but I can't tell. Once I rebuilt the (non Load-O-Matic) carb, put in Autolite 216's and timed the LOM by ear it started of the 1-2nd hit. Seems to run fairly strong. Looking forward to testing the hours to gallon with the new distributor. If I pulled the backhoe off and ran a square bailer it would be a better test of power.


EDIT: The Ford Industrial engine manual shows a press on and a bolt on cam gear. "IF" the cam gear did slip 75° back the exhaust valve would still be opening on a piston down stroke. Another straw to grab here is maybe this was before the days of overlap.

[My427stang]

Is it characteristic for an Industrial Flathead Ford to begin to open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke? Across the cylinders both valves were not closed until I rolled the engine backwards by hand. At this point it was on the front side of piston TDC. When rolling backwards into the compression stroke could gain up to 40/45% moderate cylinder pressure. At that point the fan belt would slip on the pulley bottoming the piston until the intake valve opened.

When compression ends, the power stroke starts, not the exhaust, so the answer is "not and have it run" it would just backfire out of the exhaust

Sounds to me like it has some sort of cam timing issue, very simplified below, things of course overlap

- suck (piston traveling down, intake valve open)
- squeeze (piston traveling up, no valves open)
- bang (piston traveling down, no valves open)
- blow (piston traveling up, exhaust valve open)

[chris401]

Is it characteristic for an Industrial Flathead Ford to begin to open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke? Across the cylinders both valves were not closed until I rolled the engine backwards by hand. At this point it was on the front side of piston TDC. When rolling backwards into the compression stroke could gain up to 40/45% moderate cylinder pressure. At that point the fan belt would slip on the pulley bottoming the piston until the intake valve opened.

When compression ends, the power stroke starts, not the exhaust, so the answer is "not and have it run" it would just backfire out of the exhaust

Sounds to me like it has some sort of cam timing issue, very simplified below, things of course overlap

- suck (piston traveling down, intake valve open)
- squeeze (piston traveling up, no valves open)
- bang (piston traveling down, no valves open)
- blow (piston traveling up, exhaust valve open)

You have it right. Been on the payroll as heavy line tech for about 20 years, thus the seemingly odd question above. Personally have not been deeper than a carburetor on any Flathead. I found one reference with a tractor I6 conversion engine exhaust valve open a 9° before TDC, the comment to that post was it's normal. The poster had his fresh rebuilt engine on a stand before the head was installed. Piston up valve cracked open. It could be my valve is on rock? I hope an old Flathead hand see's this one and explains something the rest of us don't know.

[My427stang]

Is it characteristic for an Industrial Flathead Ford to begin to open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke? Across the cylinders both valves were not closed until I rolled the engine backwards by hand. At this point it was on the front side of piston TDC. When rolling backwards into the compression stroke could gain up to 40/45% moderate cylinder pressure. At that point the fan belt would slip on the pulley bottoming the piston until the intake valve opened.

When compression ends, the power stroke starts, not the exhaust, so the answer is "not and have it run" it would just backfire out of the exhaust

Sounds to me like it has some sort of cam timing issue, very simplified below, things of course overlap

- suck (piston traveling down, intake valve open)
- squeeze (piston traveling up, no valves open)
- bang (piston traveling down, no valves open)
- blow (piston traveling up, exhaust valve open)

You have it right. Been on the payroll as heavy line tech for about 20 years, thus the seemingly odd question above. Personally have not been deeper than a carburetor on any Flathead. I found one reference with a tractor I6 conversion engine exhaust valve open a 9° before TDC, the comment to that post was it's normal. The poster had his fresh rebuilt engine on a stand before the head was installed. Piston up valve cracked open. It could be my valve is on rock? I hope an old Flathead hand see's this one and explains something the rest of us don't know.

Honest question, not being silly, but you aren't looking at the intake lobe by accident are you?  Intake would open just before TDC, exactly where depends on cam design

[chris401]

Air passing through exhaust or carb. My post had to be very wordy to cover the whole scenario. All of the information I have at this point is buried in the primary post.

[My427stang]

I read it the first time, I wouldn't have commented.  As you pointed out. it doesn't make sense to open at the end of the compression/beginning of the power stroke. I am not exactly following your test procedures either and I went back and reread it a few times to try to follow

"Warm static compression" isn't a thing, if you are saying "warm cranking compression" and saying it actually runs, then it just isn't opening on the compression stroke, it  wouldn't run or build any compression.  If it doesn't run, then I'd ask you elaborate a little more

However, between old Jeeps and old Fords, not new to me, but I haven't ever done more than follow book procedures on those (and it's been a LONG time at that) not sure how anything, even a Briggs and Stratton can run if the exhaust opens on the early downstroke or near TDC

I may have books to see how to time it, especially if it is a 9N tractor engine, but haven't dusted those books off in a very long time

[chris401]

Warm as in operating temperature. Static compression aka cranking compression. It is a coin toss to see who calls it what. I do have all the manuals for 8N and the Industrial 226. The Industrial manual calls for a bolt on and a slip on timing gear set. If I have slip in type maybe it slipped on the cam.

I just talked to a Flatbed builder. He didn't remember a whole lot about his last 226 build but he did give me an idea. The 4 cylinder tractor engines do have timing gears. If it is possible to interchange them with a six it is likely the cam gear timing marks are in different places. Makes sense but it still does not explain how a bee flies or in this case, How is this engine running?

[chris401]

I have to pull the axle pin housing and hood off to pull the timing cover. It has been running fine for the last 8 months I have owned it so I hate to tear into it now. When the time comes I will report my findings. Hope I don't end up eating internet crow.

It is going to look a lot better when I get old propane cut hood off swapped out. Can't do that until I fabricate the carburetor bonnet and and intake duct to match the new oil bath air cleaner assembly. The paper element is only good for an hour on a dust day. The distributor is close to factory appearing.

[frnkeore]

I like your tractor! It sure is fully equiped.

For those that would like to know what the models are for the "N", 9N is 1939, 2N is '42, 8N, is '48. The 8N is easy to ID, because of the rear wheel bolt pattern of 8 on 6.

I don't have any N's but, I do have 3 each, 600 & 800 models that came right after them.

It looks like you have enough clearance, to check cam timing with a 1" travel indicator. They make short ones called Mighty Mag:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=mighty+mag&_sacat=0

The cam timing for the "H" engine @ .014 cam lift (valve clearance) is:
In 11/41 - Ex 48/10, 232/238 Duration and .350 lift.

.050 Duration = 205.2/211.4

107 LSA - In C/L 105 - 21 deg overlap

[chris401]

I like your tractor! It sure is fully equiped.

For those that would like to know what the models are for the "N", 9N is 1939, 2N is '42, 8N, is '48. The 8N is easy to ID, because of the rear wheel bolt pattern of 8 on 6.

I don't have any N's but, I do have 3 each, 600 & 800 models that came right after them.

It looks like you have enough clearance, to check cam timing with a 1" travel indicator. They make short ones called Mighty Mag:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313&_nkw=mighty+mag&_sacat=0

The cam timing for the "H" engine @ .014 cam lift (valve clearance) is:
In 11/41 - Ex 48/10, 232/238 Duration and .350 lift.

.050 Duration = 205.2/211.4

107 LSA - In C/L 105 - 21 deg overlap

Thank's for the camshaft map. Is it specified for a stationary industrial engine? I believe that is what this is. The intake carburetor pad does not have the slant of a passenger car. The Funk kit appears to be complete like would be typical of a dealer installed engine. The tractor is fully functional but just about everything is wore out. It will be an ongoing process.

[frnkeore]

I don't think that there would need to be a different, industrial cam.

In stock spec, the "H" gets it's max torque at 1200 rpm but, I don't have any info, on that engine, as a industrial.

The truck spec, is also, the same as the car but, for the 254, it has a different cam as, the TQ comes in on it, at 1400 rpm.

[chris401]

I don't think that there would need to be a different, industrial cam.

In stock spec, the "H" gets it's max torque at 1200 rpm but, I don't have any info, on that engine, as a industrial.

The truck spec, is also, the same as the car but, for the 254, it has a different cam as, the TQ comes in on it, at 1400 rpm.

If the H Series had ran production longer than 4 years I am sure more parts would have been available. No matter how long I look at the governor blank it will simply not turn into a tachometer drive. Should be easy enough for a machinist to make. Unless there were any used in boats or something else?

[chris401]

Is it characteristic for an Industrial Flathead Ford to begin to open the exhaust valve at the top of the compression stroke? Across the cylinders both valves were not closed until I rolled the engine backwards by hand. At this point it was on the front side of piston TDC. When rolling backwards into the compression stroke could gain up to 40/45% moderate cylinder pressure. At that point the fan belt would slip on the pulley bottoming the piston until the intake valve opened.

When compression ends, the power stroke starts, not the exhaust, so the answer is "not and have it run" it would just backfire out of the exhaust

Sounds to me like it has some sort of cam timing issue, very simplified below, things of course overlap

- suck (piston traveling down, intake valve open)
- squeeze (piston traveling up, no valves open)
- bang (piston traveling down, no valves open)
- blow (piston traveling up, exhaust valve open)

Ross I'm sending a PM. I spotted a derelict 9N with what appeared to have an axillary transmission handle.  Can you swap a Sherman from a 9 to an 8 without changing any of the shafts?

[chris401]

I've not made a mistake on this. A machinist said he remembers an odd profile on a marine 300 six. That is inline with a post I found on the ford barn. A poster rebuilt a Funk 6 and came across the same thing. All one if the members said that is normal. It would be interesting to know how this profile came about. Surely one of the builders here have dealt a marine 300.


?

[My427stang]

Surely one of the builders here have dealt a marine 300.


?

Not this one, land locked during most of my time.