Author Topic: Dyno day Aug 14 - 2 ways to make power - guess, throw stones, pretty pics etc  (Read 6911 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4228
    • View Profile
Jay, that was my point too, the curves are just for trending and posting pictures :)

However, to address what looks like valve float.  We saw that and went back and looked at all the runs on that engine, and it isn't there anywhere else.  Maybe the manual dyno loading.  Can't say what exactly happened, but it wasn't there in the others, and this is a very simple and unaggressive lobe with pressures on the money. 

That being said, I had one v/c seeping a bit, I'll go back and look for any tracks on the valve tip, but I am confident after seeing more data than I hung here that it is not losing control

I agree with you though, the curves don't give enough data points and with smoothing don't give you detailed data, just gross behavior
« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 01:52:30 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Jay, for every instance that you've seen a hydraulic roller cam give up at 5500, I can show you one that has either gone to 6200, 6400, 6600, 7000, or 7500.  Case in point...





I think the majority of the issues that you have seen personally have been the combination of parts that were used.  The cam lobe has to match the lifter, the valve size, the spring pressure, the oil viscosity, etc.,  i.e. changing to a high quality lifter doesn't do much if the valves are heavy and there's not enough spring pressure....running 11/32" stems doesn't do anything if the camshaft is overly aggressive, etc. 

With all that being said, I never take seriously the numbers that are at the very, very top of the rpm range on a manually driven dyno.  I haven't looked at the sheets closely, but I'll say that since the operator is controlling the amount of load as well as the acceleration rate, the end numbers at the very end of the pull can be skewed by how he's loading the engine while anticipating the end of the pull. 

Either way, Ross had planned a 5500-6000 rpm peak for both of these engines and had not intended to go higher than 6, so it looks like he accomplished his goal.   The TW numbers may have flattened off, but that's pretty typical of any camshaft when it gets to the peak....they have to stop somewhere LOL

Switching gears...

I've learned over the years to not get nervous at a dyno session.  It used to be that I would keep myself up a lot of the night before, but I've calmed myself down quite a bit.  With that being said, I'm 100% calm when it's someone else's engine...LOL  It's a blast to just go and turn wrenches and have fun.  I always enjoy it when Ross comes to visit. 

I know it's easy to say at this point in time, but these two engines pretty much behaved the way Ross and I thought they would.  We had discussed how we thought they would be equal on horsepower but the torque difference would be significant.  On one hand you have a really high performing cylinder head with a short cam and on the other hand, you have a lower performing cylinder head with a bigger cam.  Torque will usually be equal or less on an engine where the camshaft is trying to make up for head flow. 

The balancer was something I've never witnessed before.   I also think it spun when we first started the engine.  After the first couple pulls, we pulled a plug to look at it and the timing mark was at the very bottom of the strap.  I asked Ross where he had the timing set and he said around 38, so I said let's pull some out and try it.  When I fired it back up, Ross gave me this look like, "What's going on??"  And when we are all wearing face masks and I could still read his facial expression, that shows how dire the situation was...LOL  There wasn't a timing mark on the balancer to be found.  It's a miracle that one of us didn't catch a Fomoco balancer to the face. 

Both these engines were really nice pieces.  My fave was the TW engine, but I'm a sucker for factory parts painted blue.

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Nice work, good catch/save on the damper, and solid engines.  Lots of information to digest and mull over.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

plovett

  • Guest
How much oil did you run in each pan?

thanks,

pl

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4228
    • View Profile
Full to dipstick, 8 in the Canton, 10 in the Milodon
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Kirk Morgan

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Iam looking at the dyno headers and think the tests should have been done with the ones used in each application. A few years we did a couple of days of testing at Teds and found a world of information on HP and torque with different headers. We used averages to determine the winner. This was a 390 stock eliminator engine.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4228
    • View Profile
I am looking at the dyno headers and think the tests should have been done with the ones used in each application. A few years we did a couple of days of testing at Teds and found a world of information on HP and torque with different headers. We used averages to determine the winner. This was a 390 stock eliminator engine.

Kirk, we all have ideas on how to test better, but in the end you play the hand that you are given.  Neither car owner has the headers they will run and street headers don't always fit the dyno.  Valid, but not executable in this case.  I am a fan of exhaust tuning though and agree it is an area many overlook.

Are you willing to share your information you gathered?  I think we'd all be interested, in this case, especially for a Mustang shock tower car...
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

plovett

  • Guest
My biggest surprise is that the Tunnel Wedge didn't come on stronger after 3500 rpm or so.   You mentioned other factors, though.  It was really cool to see so many different parts on two different engines at the same time.   Yet about the same peak hp.  It would of course be really neat to swap parts around from engine to engine to try all the various possible combinations, but that would take way more time than it'd be worth.   This was about as good a comparison as you can do in one shot.    Loved it.

pl

brettco

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
 Would have been cool to see a 2x4 medium riser on both and the rpm on the other.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1988
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
I am not sure its valve float - certainly possible.  I am more interested in those A/F numbers.  You have a pretty sizable variance left to right.  I sometimes see that with my stuff when running dual planes at low load but it usually tightens up at WOT and higher RPM.  I know my dyno seems to have a pretty voracious appetite for O2 sensors and have found out that the Bosch 17014 is the correct and less expensive replacement for the overpriced ones that ECM wanted to sell me.  Did you try swapping the connections from left to right to verify the data?

If those 14:1 plus numbers are valid you had some potential trouble on your hands without really seeing it.  Since collector O2 numbers are an average of four cylinders, a 14:1 average could mean that you have a really lean single hole in that bank.  Detonation or a lean misfire will upset ring seal and can give you the funky numbers that Jay is seeing.  Looking at the data without having more information my first guess is that the 750s were on the way to kicking major behind but they starved out for fuel before reaching any potential.  I know that a tunnel wedge does not provide easy connection - but a vacuum hookup can clue you in on airflow tract restrictions.  On pump gas stuff we usually see A/F readings between 12.8 and 13.2 with some variance on combinations, but a 14+ will always get me looking at parts and plugs.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
I am not sure its valve float - certainly possible.  I am more interested in those A/F numbers.  You have a pretty sizable variance left to right.  I sometimes see that with my stuff when running dual planes at low load but it usually tightens up at WOT and higher RPM.  I know my dyno seems to have a pretty voracious appetite for O2 sensors and have found out that the Bosch 17014 is the correct and less expensive replacement for the overpriced ones that ECM wanted to sell me.  Did you try swapping the connections from left to right to verify the data?

If those 14:1 plus numbers are valid you had some potential trouble on your hands without really seeing it.  Since collector O2 numbers are an average of four cylinders, a 14:1 average could mean that you have a really lean single hole in that bank.  Detonation or a lean misfire will upset ring seal and can give you the funky numbers that Jay is seeing.  Looking at the data without having more information my first guess is that the 750s were on the way to kicking major behind but they starved out for fuel before reaching any potential.  I know that a tunnel wedge does not provide easy connection - but a vacuum hookup can clue you in on airflow tract restrictions.  On pump gas stuff we usually see A/F readings between 12.8 and 13.2 with some variance on combinations, but a 14+ will always get me looking at parts and plugs.

Yeah, this one eats O2 sensors as well. 

I think the one that Jay was speaking of having valve float issues wasn't the TW engine that showed the 14's A/F. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4228
    • View Profile
First, I appreciate everyone's input.  Brent's all over it.  One of the things here is that having two builds in one post is getting things crossed up, I likely won't do this again  LOL

1 - The 750 vs 465 Tunnel Wedge engine was the one that had the lean second pull, NOT the engine Jay was talking about the top end burble he saw.

It's hard to get into decisions around a dyno in a post.  I'd have to write a book about what we discussed and everyone who runs on dyno knows, dyno day is development, but sometimes there's more than just trying every possible combo unless you are in Kirk's racing scenario or the herculean effort Barry and Blair did on EMC.  However, we didn't miss the A/F in the least. In fact it was THE reason for the decision to stop on the 750s.  As I looked at a loaner set of 750 carbs, set up for another engine and running well on that engine, the potential cost/benefit to the owner, I made the purposeful decision to NOT go into the 750s because I didn't think the cleanup would yield enough HP to warrant a purchase of a second set of carbs.

In hindsight, that should have been in the original post.

I think there might have been some small gains in power with the 750s, but given the existing carbs had exceeded expectations by almost 20 HP and nailed the peak RPM (and shift point) without going fat, it wasn't a tough call for me.  Now, if the 465s didn't have clean pulls, we would have been all over the 750s. Believe me, I told the owner (repeatedly) not to expect much from the 465s.  I ate crow on that prediction.  As most others, I honestly expected the 465s to go pig rich at the top of the pull as the booster dealt with that airflow and anticipated that correcting the HSAB would give us fits down low.  None of that happened...if we swapped heads from one engine to the other, with the right cam for the new combo, I think it would have been a different story, but that's bench racing.  I hadn't used these carbs before, but they behaved far better than the old flamethrower tunnel ram mechanical secondary 450s.

2 - The right side being slightly leaner seems to be a characteristic of this dyno, and relatively consistent for this day, although not always the case as I look back through other builds. 

If you look at mine and Brent's posted pulls,  it seems to be a constant variance left to right.  Sometimes it's tighter, sometimes not.  I can't answer to that, but we did pull plugs after that Tunnel Wedge pull and expected them to show some distress, they did not.  In fact, I think Brent's comment "is it yellow and glazed?" as I pulled the plug out of that side.  I did not switch O2 sensors, but if the leads are long enough, that is a GREAT diagnostic tool.   

Believe me, as a guy who really only does pump gas builds, that is where I focus, and yes, lean can get you sideways, but needless to say, mixture is not the only thing that drives detonation and the engines are really right (tight quench, the right plugs, any potential hot spots cleaned up, conservative compression and good cam and ignition timing) with room for gas variance, plus in the car, it generally fattens up a bit

I suppose that if we are going to hang some data, we all better be ready to answer up for that data, but considering there are hours in the dyno room, sometimes some critical points or money-based decisions are dropped off in the minutes of hanging a post

My biggest punch line on these builds yet again is: Good heads and chambers are the easiest path to big numbers  The difference in these two is not only power though, look close at the two pictures for which belongs in a late 60s/early 70s ex-Ford racer and which belongs in a custom rack & pinion, Chevy 4 speed electronic tranny, 4 linked street Galaxie.  I did put these two as a comparison, but they don't really compare in use.




---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5157
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
The A/F ratio splits all come down to how well the intake is balanced and well the carbs work.   If you look around at a lot of dyno sheets, most guys don't even show both sides, they just focus on one. 

If you bolt an aftermarket intake on without balancing all the runners/ports, you can see up to a point split sometimes.  The more and more work you put into the intake and the carbs, the closer they get.  Makes perfect sense as different flow rates through the intake manifold will limit the engine on how it can pull on the carb from side to side.



Another very important thing is that an air cleaner sometimes will straighten the flow out and balance the air/fuel ratios.  We can tune until the cows come home on the dyno, but it's really a different scenario in the car, with air cleaners, exhaust, underhood air flow, etc.  I will tell customers that we can get them close here, but it's ultimately their responsibility to follow-up when the car is going down the road. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1576
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Now you are beginning to see why I always try to get the dual planes to flow closer to each other.  There is a ~30 cfm disparity between the lower and upper planes on the RPM or any PI intake as cast with a simple gasket match.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4228
    • View Profile
Now you are beginning to see why I always try to get the dual planes to flow closer to each other.  There is a ~30 cfm disparity between the lower and upper planes on the RPM or any PI intake as cast with a simple gasket match.  Joe-JDC

Joe, you certainly make the dual planes (and others) perform.  We need to get an apprentice to stand by your side, if you don't have one already, just to capture your techniques for the next 10 years!

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch