Author Topic: windage tray  (Read 9867 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tommy-T

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2020, 12:44:49 PM »
I'm not an engine builder. I'm also not an "expert" at anything important. But I have wonderments and opinionments about stuff.

I look at the Ford windage tray like I look at the Ford valley tray. I use both. If I put together an FE motor and I see either are sitting on the bench after I'm done, would I take it back apart to install it? No.

I had a friend call me the other day to ask if I had a small block Ford oil slinger. I said probably yes but I'd have to look for it. I told him if I could not find it put it together without it. He told me that he read a magazine article that said if you do not run a slinger the timing gears would wear out in less than 10K from oil starvation.

I said OK.

I don't use rocker tins simply because I'm too lazy.

I have thought about using the stand pipes in the lifter valley. They apper to be nothing more than 1/2 npt heater hose fittings cut to whatever height you choose according to room you have. I have not actually done it because whatever you might gain might be lost from letting that oil drain down over the cam and lifters, especially in a non hydraulic lifter block.

cammerfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1664
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2020, 01:13:24 PM »
I've read this entire thread with great interest. Here's my two cents worth.

There was a time, some years ago, when I spent several days a week for more than a year, at what, at the time, was called Roush's Prototype Shop. I was doing a series of articles for Mustang Illustrated Magazine, and the work was being done at that facility. The engine I was working on was an FE and a large contingent of the original FE performance engineers had been persuaded to take early retirement and go to work for Jack. With very little notice, I could call any or all of them and use them as a 'brain trust' to get me forward.

Another function there, at the time, was building all the NASCAR engines. Although I saw the insides of those engines virtually every day, including some things that were developed there and manufactured 'in-house', and completely proprietary, I was trusted not to take pictures or otherwise talk about them. There were also nooks and crannies around where things were going on that were hidden from ALL eyes not directly involved.

Every once in a while, Jack would do a walk-through, and on occasion, I'd be invited to walk with him. At one point, while walking past one of the 'nooks', with the door firmly shut, jack remarked that the activity behind the door was focused on, as he said, 'oil pans and lower end oil control.' His statement was, "There's power to be found in properly controlling loose oil."

My own answer to lower-end oil control is to use a dry-sump system. Pull the oil away from the crank and handle it so as to remove otherwise entrained air, and make sure of an optimum amount of oil at optimum pressure at all the bearings, and you've done a good thing.

KS

cjshaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2020, 01:19:39 PM »
The fact that a deeper pan, by itself, adds power, seems to be saying that the crank could actually be "sucking" oil up from the pan, just on windage alone. I could see that happening. There's a lot of violent action going on down there when the revs come up. I believe Blair has touched on this subject before.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

MrRupp

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2020, 01:25:40 PM »
I don't want to highjack the thread, but I have to ask. We run the canton road racing pan on our 445 FE in our 79 Foxbody drag car. We have 6 quarts in the pan and one in the filter. Should we be running another quart or 2 ? It does not have a windage tray. Thanks. Clint

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4857
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: windage tray
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2020, 01:32:00 PM »
I don't want to highjack the thread, but I have to ask. We run the canton road racing pan on our 445 FE in our 79 Foxbody drag car. We have 6 quarts in the pan and one in the filter. Should we be running another quart or 2 ? It does not have a windage tray. Thanks. Clint

An extra quart or two when it's not needed can cause problems as well.  As the oil level comes up, it can be whipped. 

I'd run it just like you have it.  Watch your oil pressure gauge through a pass and see what it tells you. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

gt350hr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2020, 01:56:41 PM »
+1 The "T" shaped road race pan is fine with 6qts in a drag race situation.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: windage tray
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2020, 02:17:24 PM »
These days you can make your own oil pressure data logger by duct taping your phone so that the camera records the oil pressure gauge during a pass...lets you concentrate on other things that are more important at 130 MPH

MrRupp

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2020, 03:35:47 PM »
Thanks for all the advice, we have pulled the pan and look at the bearings and everything looks pretty good.  We want to put a go pro on the roll bar so we can watch the oil pressure during the run. We just got the new Trick flow intake on so its ready to back to the track. Thanks again for all the advice its truly appreciated. Clint

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2020, 03:39:31 PM »
......... a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.


     How? .........................

     Scott.


   
I usually try to base things on experience using them or not using them.   In this case, I've got lots of experience not using them.



     Just curious, is this your answer?     ::)

     Scott.

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4857
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: windage tray
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2020, 03:45:25 PM »
......... a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.


     How? .........................

     Scott.


   
I usually try to base things on experience using them or not using them.   In this case, I've got lots of experience not using them.



     Just curious, is this your answer?     ::)

     Scott.

So terribly sorry, your majesty.  I forgot to answer that part but since you decided to show your hindend and roll your eyes, I’m not gonna bother with it.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Rory428

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1011
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2020, 03:45:36 PM »
I don't want to highjack the thread, but I have to ask. We run the canton road racing pan on our 445 FE in our 79 Foxbody drag car. We have 6 quarts in the pan and one in the filter. Should we be running another quart or 2 ? It does not have a windage tray. Thanks. Clint
I am assuming this is a rear sump pan? On my own FE powered 78 FOX Fairmont (factory K member), I use a factory FE PU truck 4x4 rear sump oil pan, with a section of 2 1/2" round tubing notched into the shallow section to allow the oil pan to fit lower by surrounding the factory steering rack .The 4x4 pan has a nice baffle in the rear to help address the issue of the oil climbing up the back wall of the pan during a big wheelstand and the forces of acceleration. I replace the skinny factory 4x4 pickup tube, with a larger diameter tube from a full sump FT pan. Over 30 years of fairly brisk 1/4 mile passes (best 60 foot times 1.29), I have never had an oil delivery related issue. I run 6 quarts of oil, oil pressure has always been steady whenever I glanced over during a pass, although I have noticed an intermittent oil pressure drop if I brake hard in the finish line area, which I tend to avoid doing anyhow. If you have good oil pressure for the full 1/4 mile, as well as during shutdown and braking, I see no reason to add any extra oil to your oil pan. (For what it`s worth I always use a windage tray, AND a front crank slinger, AND a valley baffle tray. ) I have plenty of each, and I don`t know how necessary each piece of that sheet metal really is, but neither do I see how they would hurt anything by being there. Whenever possible, I try to used the rocker arm drain trays, but they don`t fit easily with many aftermarket rocker arm setups. Maybe it`s time for Jay to write another book, "The Great FE Oil Pan, Windage Tray, and Sheetmetal Oil Control Device Comparo" !! :D
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2020, 04:02:09 PM »
OP asks a very specific question and gets an answer, which leads to yet another shit storm. Sure gonna get quiet around here if another guru clams up.

What "shit storm"? I think there has been some legitimate questions and opinions brought up. Is that not allowed?

Exactly.  There is no "shit storm".  Who cares if someone gets upset?  It's part of life.  They get over it and come back to the table.  We can argue vehemently.  It's okay.  I once had one of my teeth broken in a "conflict".  The next day I helped the same guy fix his Chevy work truck.  No big deal. 

By the way, Rory is right.   :)

pl

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2020, 04:17:55 PM »
He may not like getting poked at, but Brent can take a beating :) 

I have a spare Canton screen, if we can talk Brent into a run after JJ is dialed in, I will give it to him to try on Junky Junk.

Yes!  He can take it, which I respect.

But making that back to back run on the dyno won't prove the point, IMO.

pl

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2020, 04:19:59 PM »
I'm not an engine builder. I'm also not an "expert" at anything important. But I have wonderments and opinionments about stuff.

I look at the Ford windage tray like I look at the Ford valley tray. I use both. If I put together an FE motor and I see either are sitting on the bench after I'm done, would I take it back apart to install it? No.

I had a friend call me the other day to ask if I had a small block Ford oil slinger. I said probably yes but I'd have to look for it. I told him if I could not find it put it together without it. He told me that he read a magazine article that said if you do not run a slinger the timing gears would wear out in less than 10K from oil starvation.

I said OK.

I don't use rocker tins simply because I'm too lazy.

I have thought about using the stand pipes in the lifter valley. They apper to be nothing more than 1/2 npt heater hose fittings cut to whatever height you choose according to room you have. I have not actually done it because whatever you might gain might be lost from letting that oil drain down over the cam and lifters, especially in a non hydraulic lifter block.

Thanks for keeping it real, Tommy T!

pl

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2020, 04:21:16 PM »
Good thread is what I am trying to say.  Disagreement is good.  :)

pl