Author Topic: windage tray  (Read 9863 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2020, 05:33:15 PM »
Is a windage tray worth the effort/cost on basic street engine that would only see 5000rpm once in a blue moon? 390 2wd truck pan. 

Or should one be used on basically everything with maybe the exception of a deeper 4x4 or FT bread pan.



     In my opinion, the answer is: maybe.

     As for the effort/cost, well in the case of the FE, and if one is referring to the O.E.M. tray, one must posses such or purchase as they are readily available, at not to great a cost; and if in the process of assembly, slap-it-on; not so great an effort (generally).

     For relativity of the original posters' inquiry, he has a 2 w.d. O.E. pan, not a deep pan, nothing with scrapers, doors, windows, kick-outs, screens, or other trickery; yes, all of these possibilities in engineering may change the response to the original inquiry, but!

     I suppose the inquiry into the subject of the O.E.s' "bread-box" pans perhaps sorta opens the door on perhaps - what would work better, even if it doesn't fit the chassis, and if this engine is jacked-up enough of perhaps the cross member (2wd trk), or? Maybe it was a possibility? And yes, with my limited experience, I like big, deep, full length pans, with lots of capacity, but unlike the as delivered by Ford example, it must have "some" baffling as otherwise it may look good on the dyno (and it can!), but may prove disappointing in a moving chassis.            :o

     To further attempt to answer the question, the intention of most tray designs is to aid in better oil control, including as a slosh baffle; the goal is to aid in a better quality/condition of the lubricant; and in order to provide the best effect of insulation of the oil in the pans' resevoir from incident of contact with components within the crankcase which are in motion, including the effects of the oil in high-speed motion above and windage effects.  Many of the recommended engineering endeavors stated are potentially applicable, including the simplest (if space permits) distance, but in the context of the O.P., I think the inquiry was for perhaps a not to difficult not to expensive an option with what he possessed, and perhaps not so unlike the O.E., who with perhaps a few real engineers, handed us their tray decades ago.  Is it the best thing ever produced, I'd say not, and this is not a case of nostalgic romance, but nothing is ideal in all circumstances, but I don't really recall any instances of note where it was established to be the cause of failure, and it's relatively cheap, and of little effort in consequence of installation (as long as the pan is already off anyway).            ;)

     Besides, I'm stuck on the idea that with some stock nothin' fancy, bare-gut pan, it's better than nothin'!          ::)

     And Mr. Blykins, my purpose was not to ruffle anyone's feathers, as I was, and still am earnestly interested in your observations leading to the conclusion in the inquiry; but perhaps I allowed myself to follow your lead, as mine was a "response", but to that, if truly offended, know it was not my intension.              :)

     Scott.

     

     

     

     

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3960
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2020, 06:05:50 PM »
He may not like getting poked at, but Brent can take a beating :) 

I have a spare Canton screen, if we can talk Brent into a run after JJ is dialed in, I will give it to him to try on Junky Junk.

Yes!  He can take it, which I respect.

But making that back to back run on the dyno won't prove the point, IMO.

pl

The problem with your statement is that there are more points here than just Rory's dyno vs track.  If a lid controls the vertical pounding and aeration, is it the windage tray benefit or too shallow of a pan bandaid?  If a screen tray makes power, does a Ford pan lid make power?  Of course, we still don't really know if back to back dyno would show power, although Barry seems to think no, but testing my Canton might say, then it should show on the track too.

However, I will say, I am not sure why I or Brent would bother do it if everyone is angry LOL, dynos aren't free and  it's just a damned pan lid...I think social distancing has people on the edge!

I'll also add, there wasn't much mention of racing in the creation of this thread

Is a windage tray worth the effort/cost on basic street engine that would only see 5000rpm once in a blue moon? 390 2wd truck pan. 

Or should one be used on basically everything with maybe the exception of a deeper 4x4 or FT bread pan.

My answer would be, save the 100 bucks for a Ford one, or the 75 for a Canton, and spend the money on a pan with real baffles and more capacity if you can, and remember, I am windage tray guy!!!


« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 06:08:56 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4857
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: windage tray
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2020, 06:50:47 PM »
Is a windage tray worth the effort/cost on basic street engine that would only see 5000rpm once in a blue moon? 390 2wd truck pan. 

Or should one be used on basically everything with maybe the exception of a deeper 4x4 or FT bread pan.
     And Mr. Blykins, my purpose was not to ruffle anyone's feathers, as I was, and still am earnestly interested in your observations leading to the conclusion in the inquiry; but perhaps I allowed myself to follow your lead, as mine was a "response", but to that, if truly offended, know it was not my intension.              :)

     Scott.

   

Fair enough.   Never been a fan of the eye rolling emoji.  It's a big pet peeve of mine and when I see it, I automatically envision a teenage girl rolling her eyes and saying "What-ever...."   To me, it's very disrespectful. 

The differences between skirted blocks and non-skirted blocks in regards to windage can be fairly dramatic and I can't say with 100% certainly which one is better than the other.   I think both have their pros and cons which have to be addressed individually. 

A non-skirted engine puts the crankshaft closer to the bottom of the sump.   This in turn can exacerbate crankcase windage.  In my mind, a non-skirted block *really* benefits from a very deep oil pan sump because of this. 

A skirted block doesn't put the crankshaft closer to the bottom of the sump, but it makes more of a "box" out of the crankcase.  This is why I really don't like the idea of a windage tray on an FE because unless it's extremely free-flowing, a tray can actually trap windage in some cases.  You also have to look at the possibility that windage can be "trapped" from front-to-back.  If you look at a lot of modern skirted block engines, such as the Modular Ford, LS, etc., you will see that they have "cylinder vents" in the block's main bulkheads.  This allows windage to escape and it also allows adjacent cylinders to help scavenge windage.  I have actually drilled cylinder vents in the bulkheads on FE blocks.  Now I can't say what it's worth because I've never done a back-to-back, but it's just one of those things that I have done to make me feel better about being me. 

In the end, everyone can just do whatever they feel comfortable with.  It's just like the sheet metal pieces that Rory and Tommy spoke about:  am I going to condemn anyone for using them?  No.  Do I think any of it is necessary?  No.  Since 2006, every single FE I've ever built has had every single one of those pieces omitted.   I've got FE's in towing applications, road race, truck pull, drag race, you name it, and my old junk does quite well.   But it's everyone's prerogative about what they feel comfortable with and that's fine. 

As for the dyno testing, I will admit that dynos can't tell you everything.  They don't move.  However, I'm not one who just dynos engines and then stores them.  My engines go in actual vehicles and my race stuff comes back for a freshen-up when necessary, which gives me great feedback.   Got a 434 inch Clevor in Wichita that pushes a '69 Mustang to a 141 mph trap speed in the 1/4.   No windage tray in that one either, but it has a crank scraper and a pretty deep oil pan. 

To me, a deep pan is paramount in a performance engine. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2020, 07:16:04 PM »
   Never been a fan of the eye rolling emoji.  It's a big pet peeve of mine and when I see it, I automatically envision a teenage girl rolling her eyes and saying "What-ever...."   
/quote]


      Off the topic but just a thought: stay away from the young teenage girls, that way your suffer less frustration, not to mention that will definitely get you into trouble!   At least at my age anyway!              ::)

      Oops! Sorry, I did it again.             :)

      Scott.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1928
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: windage tray
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2020, 08:43:42 PM »
You have not lived until you remove a banged up OEM metal pan that looks like you'd use it for mixing paint and install a thousand dollar value billet & sheet aluminum weld up pan with a host of baffles and integral bolt in screen, pouring the still warm oil from one into the other while mounted to the dyno, making a pull within about twenty minutes - - and losing three horsepower.

I have seen some Super Stock Hemi guys that cut rectangular windows into the sides of their blocks and built oil pans that wrapped around the the block to encapsulate those holes and have a "kickout" like is common on non-deep-skirt blocks.  I do not know if it really helped or if it was just a fashionable modification.

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2020, 08:46:18 PM »
He may not like getting poked at, but Brent can take a beating :) 

I have a spare Canton screen, if we can talk Brent into a run after JJ is dialed in, I will give it to him to try on Junky Junk.

Yes!  He can take it, which I respect.

But making that back to back run on the dyno won't prove the point, IMO.

pl

The problem with your statement is that there are more points here than just Rory's dyno vs track.  If a lid controls the vertical pounding and aeration, is it the windage tray benefit or too shallow of a pan bandaid?  If a screen tray makes power, does a Ford pan lid make power?  Of course, we still don't really know if back to back dyno would show power, although Barry seems to think no, but testing my Canton might say, then it should show on the track too.

However, I will say, I am not sure why I or Brent would bother do it if everyone is angry LOL, dynos aren't free and  it's just a damned pan lid...I think social distancing has people on the edge!

I'll also add, there wasn't much mention of racing in the creation of this thread

Is a windage tray worth the effort/cost on basic street engine that would only see 5000rpm once in a blue moon? 390 2wd truck pan. 

Or should one be used on basically everything with maybe the exception of a deeper 4x4 or FT bread pan.

My answer would be, save the 100 bucks for a Ford one, or the 75 for a Canton, and spend the money on a pan with real baffles and more capacity if you can, and remember, I am windage tray guy!!!

I don't think anybody was asking you for free dyno time.  You are the one who mentioned it.

But point taken, there are many variables and one test couldn't take them all into account.  It is not only dyno vs. track.  Still, I think everybody here expects an engine to be taken off the dyno at some point, even if not a race piece. 

I like dynos and dyno testing.  I think they are incredibly useful.   Plus, they are super fascinating.  It is the fastest place to get back to back A-B testing with a minimum amount of other variables changed.  Even quick back to back runs at the strip could have different air temps, tire temps/pressure, wind speed, coolant and oil temps, etc.  I work in a lab and can control most variables so tests are consistent, but our products are eventually going to be used by a customer under different (even if marginally) conditions.  Just the acts of packing and shipping our product to a customer can change it, even if everything else is exactly the same.   For my work, consistency of product is arguably better than being 100% correct.  If my product's true value is off by 5%, but it's ALWAYS off by 5% then the customer knows what to expect and can control THEIR variables and not worry about mine.   Racing can be about consistency or about gaining every last bit, or both, depending on the type of racing. 

If I were a bajillionaire I would build a facility purely for the purpose of generating dyno and acceleration data and make it free for public use.  I need a cool acronym for it.  Institute For The Advancement Internal Combustion Technology For Public Use.

IFTAICTFPU?  Nope.

pl


66FAIRLANE

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
  • Andy
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2020, 01:58:48 AM »
How about;
Free Use Car Knowledge Institute & Training?

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2020, 05:36:13 AM »
How about;
Free Use Car Knowledge Institute & Training?

Ha!   ;D

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2020, 05:42:36 AM »
How about;
Free Use Car Knowledge Institute & Training?

Basic Research On Killing Engines?

plovett

  • Guest
Re: windage tray
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2020, 06:10:06 AM »
Basic Research Organization on the Kinetics of Engines.   There!  That sounds more professional.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 06:29:21 AM by plovett »

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: windage tray
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2020, 04:48:55 PM »
Chris, a skirted block is different from a non-skirted block.  I've never seen any dyno advantage of a windage tray on an FE.  The only time I've used them in the past is doing the "CJ oil capacity mod" or if I'm using an Aviaid Cobra pan that has one incorporated into it.  Otherwise, it's not worth the hassle.

Thanks for the clarification - been to school today!  That's an interesting finding for sure.   

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2166
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: windage tray
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2020, 04:56:30 PM »
These days you can make your own oil pressure data logger by duct taping your phone so that the camera records the oil pressure gauge during a pass...lets you concentrate on other things that are more important at 130 MPH

LOL.  I'm going to install an AEM data system on the dragster soon.  Up till now, it's been a single channel data acq system - I pick one gauge to watch and start looking at it in high gear.   ;D

I only use the "eye roll" emoji when referring to myself about something "intelligent" that I've done. 

pbf777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2020, 08:01:56 PM »
A non-skirted engine puts the crankshaft closer to the bottom of the sump.   This in turn can exacerbate crankcase windage.  In my mind, a non-skirted block *really* benefits from a very deep oil pan sump because of this. 

A skirted block doesn't put the crankshaft closer to the bottom of the sump, but it makes more of a "box" out of the crankcase.


    So, I acquired an FE and a S.B.F. oil pan, both "typical" O.E.M. five quart capacity intention units in order to test this statement; as I suspected that there wasn't going to be that much difference, as generally from an engineering standpoint the crankshaft centerline in a singular chassis will in context to the surrounding engineering remain relatively constant (this including the distance to the ground!), otherwise excessive re-engineering would be required with each engine possibility.            ;)

    Obviously the FE block skirt is deeper (2-5/8" +/-) vs. the S.B.F., but the latters' oil pan is deeper (2" +/-); the as measured difference therefore being maybe 5/8" deeper for the FE, from the crankshaft centerline to the bottom of the sump (note that the sump at the bottom, the S.B.F. exhibits more area than the FE, if that were important).

    Perhaps the more important consideration is where is the oil level in relation to the crankshaft &/or other revolving components?  Adding five quarts of fluid to each pan and establishing a measurement from the crankshaft centerline to the oils' surface with the pan rails at level, netted the observation that the FE appeared to present 4-1/2" +/- and the S.B.F. presented 4" +/-, the as measured difference therefore being maybe 1/2" +/- greater for the FE; and the variance from the previous measurements I will attribute to the S.B.F. greater, flatter area in the sumps' bottom.

    But don't forget the FE generally consists of a greater stroke length sum as compared to the S.B.F.s, the counter weights are generally of greater diameter, and with larger rod big-ends mounted on larger diameter journals are going to intrude on this provided greater distance more than that of the S.B.F.

    Now this is a comparison of the "typical" O.E. standard "bread & butter" components, measured in "Stanley" accuracy, as particularly considering that the engines generally do not reside level in most chassis (maybe that means one can add an extra quart to the FE's in the "Square & Bullit-Birds" without consequence?), and the fluid is going to be in motion, coupled with the many possible stroke lengths and component profiles available, all creating variables to many to count, I didn't see the need to be any more specific. But I do feel they may present some relativity to the actual effect present in the discussion, with the conclusion that there just ain't that much difference.         :)

     Scott.
   

   



     
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:02:19 AM by pbf777 »

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1501
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: windage tray
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2020, 09:23:56 PM »
I have watched this with interest, and have to say that I agree that using the deepest pan you can safely use is always the best idea, and is more important than the Ford windage tray.  However, I still use it for CJ rebuilds, or an aftermarket screen for oil windage control.  A 1" drop in oil level will show a horsepower improvement on the dyno if you still have enough to complete a pull.  Many years ago, I witnessed dropping 4 quarts out of a BBC oil pan that held 12 quarts, and picked up 30 hp.  The first quart netted 8 hp, and we kept removing oil until the dyno operator stopped us.  Lesson learned.  Keep the oil level as far away as possible, but have enough available to meet the engines needs under operating conditions.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Jim Kramer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Fun thread.
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2020, 11:36:43 PM »
As an additional point of interest, when we ran NHRA stock eliminator, if you had a "heads up" run against a same class car it was typical to drop at least one quart of oil before the run. I would normally run five quarts in the 427 deep pan. I would make the run with four quarts total in the pan. It was almost always worth nearly a full tenth. A lot of people would do it, particularly if you were a little slower than you opponent. Put the quart back in before the next run, (if you won). No problem......Jim Kramer