Author Topic: Build Literature  (Read 3587 times)

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Coubra

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Build Literature
« on: August 03, 2020, 05:18:07 PM »
June was a tough month.  Finally got our GT500 on the track (Blackhawk Farms) and proceeded to blow it up - and I have no intention of repeating this disaster.

Are there any recent publications on best build/construction practices for FEs?

Gaugster

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2020, 06:07:39 PM »
Sorry to hear this. Anything recent would be in the YouTube format. Check out MyVintageIron perhaps? Barry's two books and Jay's are great. Hard to consider them recent but the basic engine platform hasn't changed either. The exception being Jay's new products. I don't think anyone is writting anything like a "How to make 3000hp twin turbo intercooled E85 FE stroker" but I'd love to be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 08:19:33 AM by Gaugster »
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

Coubra

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2020, 08:32:23 PM »
Barry's two books and Jay's are great.

Titles?  Where to find them?

Not looking to build a monster - street & occasional track car.

jayb

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2020, 08:44:46 PM »
You can get my book at the link below.  There are details in the book about the six different dyno mules used for all the intake testing:

http://www.fepower.net/GFEIC.html


Also, here's a link to a copy of the 390 stroker build I did for Car Craft several years back:

http://www.fepower.net/Articles/CCFE.pdf
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Gaugster

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 08:52:10 PM »
Barry's two books and Jay's are great.

Titles?  Where to find them?

Not looking to build a monster - street & occasional track car.

Just Google Barry Rabotnick and his two Ford FE books should pop up. I got mine from Amazon. I bought Jay's book from his website link he provided.
John - '68 Cougar XR7 390 FE (X-Code) 6R80 AUTO

wayne

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »
Tips on building a fe (fairlane) engine by Jim Dove on line with Jays and Barrys books are all you need
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 10:32:59 AM by wayne »

cjshaker

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2020, 11:52:22 AM »
The most knowledgeable gathering of information for best build/construction practices, bar none, is this forum. After that, Barry and Jay's books.

What caused the failure of your GT500 engine? It's easy to do everything right on a build, but if you're using 50+ year old performance parts (like a crank, rods etc), short of doing aircraft level structure analysis, a failure can still happen.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Coubra

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2020, 01:38:08 PM »
Thanks guys!  Ordered Barry's two books.  Already know what induction/fuel system's going on it - Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI.  Had it on the engine before and thought it did really well.  Actually know pretty much how it's going together - just need to make sure it doesn't cough a rod again.

wayne

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2020, 03:37:51 PM »
Did it brake the rod or a rod bolt was it a stock rod or after market.

Coubra

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 08:43:55 PM »
Some background:

Just installed a remote oil filter and oil cooler and after the install had lower oil pressure. 

Got four laps in with good temp, oil pressure 35 psi, ran strong, no noise.  Started down straight and about at pit road entrance got a loud pop with smoke coming out from hood. Maximum RPM that day was 5836.

Took block apart and found the two rods/pistons that let loose (#2 & #6) did so without a problem as a result of valves contacting pistons - no valves contacted any pistons.  #2 & #6 - The rod bearings are gone and the bearing mount surface is black, as in, they were really hot from rotating on the journal without a bearing.  One is still on the crankshaft and the block (original to car) is junk.  But like I said - no noise or indication that there was a problem.  Main bearings and other rod bearings are good.

Unbolted cam gear and found sheared off gear pin.  All the pushrods and rockers are okay. There's lots of bronze filings in the oil filter and the cam is stuck in the block.

Attempted to get cam out - put slide hammer to it and wouldn't budge. Turned block upside down and found chunk of wrist pin locked between cam lobe and block.  Punched out wedged piece of wrist pin and cam rotated easy.  Cam bearings in good shape. 

Possible sequence?: rods let go after bearings cook out (no/not enough oil?), wrist pin gets between lobe & block, cam locks up and shears cam pin with crank still going.

How the hell did no valves hit pistons with the end result of push rods & rockers untouched?!!! "Lucky" I guess.

This is the Eagle rotating assembly that was used: 
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-158004160

Edelbrock ProFlo4 EFI, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads. custom Comp Cams cam (.622/.617 lift, 113 lobe separation, & 228/234 duration), valve springs, roller hydraulic lifters, Harland Sharp rockers, Canton oil pan & windage tray, Melling HV oil pump, ATI harmonic balancer, Canton remote oil filter adapter with a Mishimoto cooler.  TKO-600 Tremec with an aluminum Science Friction flywheel and an Atomic Twin clutch.  The accessory drive system is a Billet Specialties assembly and the headers are modified Hooker Super Comps that exit to a custom 2.5" exhaust system.

The block assembly was machined, balanced, and assembled by a local shop that I trust four years ago.  There's less than 100 hours on this engine.  The weekend before the track event my wife & I took a 90 mile cruise with no noise or problems.

I understand that 35 psi oil pressure isn't optimal, but oddly began with the remote oil filter/cooler install.  Had it to do over I'd disconnect the the remote setup, put a filter on the engine , and run it to see what the pressure is.  Hindsite is 20/20...

That's why I want the build literature. (and any other help)

cammerfe

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2020, 10:03:43 PM »
Any indications showing on the thrust bearing? I've been told that loading the crank toward the front can have bad effects on the 2-6 journal. Don't know why that's true, but had result such as you describe happen on a dyno when small-block drive spud, with the longer pilot nose, was inadvertently used during set-up. The thrust bearing was NOT destroyed, but it showed the loading. I lost two cylinders and had block-skirt damage on both sides.

KS

WConley

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2020, 11:35:26 PM »
35 pounds of oil pressure is no bueno for hard running at rpm.  That kind of pressure gives insufficient oil flow to carry heat out of the bearings. 

I think you need to look really hard at that remote oil filter installation.  Did you cross up the lines?  If so, the anti-drainback valve in the oil filter will impede flow.  My money is on that problem.

I'm sorry to hear about your original 428 block.  That's a tough one  :(  Good luck finding the culprit.

Edit:  Here's a nice little write-up on how a remote system should be routed:

http://mississippi-mud.com/thread-20091.html

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

cjshaker

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2020, 09:39:48 AM »
35 psi at idle, or at speed? 35 at idle is not terrible, if the pressure comes up with RPMs. With the other bearings looking good, I'd find it hard to believe it was a oil pressure problem, UNLESS there was a crack in the bulkhead, or trash in the cam to crank journal oil feed hole, or the crank itself, which would starve those journals. Have you checked the block carefully? There's been more than one occasion when guys have had a bulkhead crack that starved a pair of journals.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

WConley

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2020, 10:24:56 AM »
Doug - I'm reading 35 psi while running at speed.  OP also noted that oil pressure had dropped after his remote filter install...
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

gt350hr

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2020, 12:47:19 PM »
    Any time a cooler/extra filter(s), plumbing is added there is increased restriction and oil pressure drops accordingly . You need a 427 style pump with a 100 psi relief spring ( or more) so the "net" pressure after the cooler/filter stuff is 65-70 at the gauge. Volume isn't the issue.
Taking out 2&6 is a little odd in that oil starvation usually shows up in 1&5. Welding the rods to the crank will destroy ANY rod regardless of origin. That happened first here. Increased stroke increases the need for oil pressure as well.
    Randy

HarleyJack17

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2020, 04:38:18 PM »
The books recommended are good sources. What I used along with help from the forum.  The money invested it may not be a bad idea, my opinion, to go through Brent, Blair, Ross, or Barry at least on the short block.  To me, the short block is where most errors will arise, in a very general sense.  Mistakes can be made on the top end certainly, but most guys tend to be familiar with that and there tends to be more leeway.
 
Barry's book was a good help to me along with this forum and net.  I am meticulous but still made some mistakes that cost me, but not to the extent of blown motor, and it was my first engine ever to build.  When using modern parts, it is paramount you know the little details and changes so you do it right.  A build check list with notes is your friend!

My guess, and it is purely a guess, is either a plugged feed in the crank or maybe a crack in the journal.  A crack in the main feed should have shown on bearing wear.  Odd those two would be the only ones that showed a lack of oil unless the tolerances were way off on just two.  A full system of low oil volume "should" have shown up on other parts imo.  Low pressure sounds like an internal leak, unless it was routed wrong but again very odd only these two are effected. The psi you listed is low for a full on run for sure. 
Sadly on a self destruct it can be tough, or impossible, to find the issue. Just really depends on what evidence is still left.

Which piston was missing material on the wrist pin? Sounds odd it would end up wedged but a lot can happen with parts moving around and break rapidly, or flipping a motor on a stand.

Best of luck. Never a good day when a new build goes south.
 

Coubra

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2020, 05:47:38 PM »
Thanks for the replies & info.

The remote filter/cooler install was carefully done and the flow paths triple checked.  Just went out to the car and checked again - routing is good.

Thrust bearing looks good too.

Next build: 
Will use a Precision Oil Pump blueprinted HV pump. 
Will open up the oil pump route from the pump to the filter adapter.  Any specific do's and don'ts with this?
Will restrict rocker oil feed on Edelbrock heads with Precision Oil Pump restrictors.  Any specific do's and don'ts with this?
Will use hydraulic roller lifters again and won't make any lifter bore modifications.
Will use the remote oil filter/cooler setup again - routing will again be checked per Canton instructions.
Will reuse repaired Canton Road Race Series 15-874 oil pan.  Had used screened windage tray before - would louvered be better for my use?
Will reuse mechanical and electric oil pressure gauges.  (Electric gauge is part of the dash setup I'm using.)
Will probably use a Scat stroker rotating assembly. 
    Optimal main bearing clearance? 
    Optimal rod bearing clearance? 
    Optimal thrust bearing clearance with standard transmission and street/autocross/road race application? 
    Optimal bearing manufacturer/material?
Will replicate camshaft specs and reuse other induction/exhaust/accessory drive/etc components. 

This is not intended to be a max performance setup, I don't have buckets of money to throw at it, will be street driven with operational HVAC, and will go to my daughter when I check out.

cjshaker

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2020, 07:19:06 AM »
Doug - I'm reading 35 psi while running at speed.  OP also noted that oil pressure had dropped after his remote filter install...

Bill, with all due respect, 35 psi at speed is low. Too low, in my opinion. I don't know where you're reading pressure, but I don't know of anyone that thinks 35 is enough pressure at a higher RPM. But like I said, it's depending on where the pressure is read. If you read 35 psi at the beginning of an oiling system, then the pressure at the end of the system is going to be considerably less. 35 psi at the end of the system may be acceptable, but you're likely closer to 55+ at the beginning. We've had discussions of pressure drops throughout oiling systems.

    Any time a cooler/extra filter(s), plumbing is added there is increased restriction and oil pressure drops accordingly . You need a 427 style pump with a 100 psi relief spring ( or more) so the "net" pressure after the cooler/filter stuff is 65-70 at the gauge. Volume isn't the issue.
Taking out 2&6 is a little odd in that oil starvation usually shows up in 1&5. Welding the rods to the crank will destroy ANY rod regardless of origin. That happened first here. Increased stroke increases the need for oil pressure as well.
    Randy

Randy, whether or not pressure drops with increased resistance depends on where the pressure reading takes place. If it's before the restriction, then pressure will increase. If it's after the resistance, then pressure will drop. More resistance equals more pressure, less resistance equals less pressure. Those are basics of hydraulics. Not trying to be argumentative, but some clarification on where the OP is taking readings, and at what RPM, would be very helpful here.

Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

WConley

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2020, 09:38:09 AM »
Doug - I'm reading 35 psi while running at speed.  OP also noted that oil pressure had dropped after his remote filter install...

Bill, with all due respect, 35 psi at speed is low. Too low, in my opinion. I don't know where you're reading pressure, but I don't know of anyone that thinks 35 is enough pressure at a higher RPM. But like I said, it's depending on where the pressure is read. If you read 35 psi at the beginning of an oiling system, then the pressure at the end of the system is going to be considerably less. 35 psi at the end of the system may be acceptable, but you're likely closer to 55+ at the beginning. We've had discussions of pressure drops throughout oiling systems.


Hi Doug - Sorry for the confusion.  My wording should have been, "I'm reading in the OP's post that he was getting 35 psi while running at speed."  Heck yeah - I agree that 35 psi is WAY too low when you're giving it the beans!  You need lots of oil flow to carry heat away from those bearings.  We're on the same page for sure!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

gt350hr

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2020, 10:53:34 AM »
   Doug ,
      I fully agree on the pressure/ resistance deal. "Oil pressure" is actually a reading of "back pressure" or what "won't" go into the engine LOL.  My point is "any" time you make a turn with oil ( or fluid for that matter) there is a pressure loss ( yes "after the turn" or cooler/filter). This is why AN fittings have progressed from harsh 90*machined "elbows"  to larger "radius" style. Hose length is another factor. 35 psi "after" the cooler , at point of entry to the engine IS too little , especially on an FE. We ALL agree on that !!!
    Randy

wayne

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2020, 07:14:56 PM »
If it was mine the remote oil filter set up would not go back on. What kind of oil did you have. I think Jays or Barrys book tells oil pressure front and rear is 20 lbs different so you need all you can get.

gt350hr

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2020, 09:45:58 AM »
+1 I have seen bigger variations than that on a 351C ( which has front and rear pressure tap locations stock)

fryedaddy

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Re: Build Literature
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2020, 01:15:34 PM »
I lost 10 psi when i took my stock rocker arm setup off an installed harland sharp complete setup,rockers,shafts and end stands.when i fired it up with stock rockers it went straight to 80 and dropped to 75 after running a few minutes,now with the hs setup it goes to 70 for a minute then drops to 60s while driving and 25-30 at idle. the stock setup never dropped below 45-50 even at idle.he might of lost 10-20 with the hs and 10-20 with the re-locator and cooler.
1966 comet caliente 428 4 speed owned since 1983                                                 1973 f250 ranger xlt 360 4 speed papaw bought new