Intro and current project

[turbohunter]

Hey Guys
Thought I'd introduce myself with a thread on my current project.
My name is Marc and I am a Fordaholic.
I've built a few Windsors and a Y block but never an FE from the ground up. Even though I own three. Four if you count the FT in my fire truck.
My current project is a new engine for my '74 F100 4x4 short bed.
I found this truck as a non running heap. Bought it and after a few weekends got it running and road safe.
It's been running like a top ever since.
When I first took the valve covers off a whole bunch of oil spilled out of each one, so I knew I may have some starvation issues in the lower end.
So I found a D4TE block and it is out getting sonic checked as I write this.
The plan is a 445 that will be a solid, lug able hunting truck. So I'm not going for a lot of compression and will run a very street able cam. I've had the heads done already. They are a set of D2T's. I did a nice valve job, cleaned up the intake ports and chambers but kept the stock valve diameters.
Edelbrock performer manifold the has been port matched. A set of Maddog fender well headers.
I think I'll run a complete roller valve train.
And thats about it.
Have very much enjoyed lurking for the past few days.

[jayb]

Welcome, Marc.  That is one good looking truck.  Got any engine shots?

[turbohunter]

Just stock stuff. Nothing fun yet. Although I'm amazed at the toughness of this engine. It sat for six years after being a snow plow and wood hauler, had a bent push rod, starved for oil in the bottom end (probably) and it runs great.
Promise I will post plenty as the build goes on.
I plan to learn some FE basics on this build, then move on to my Tbird (I have a 3x2 secured for that), then build the mustang and go crazy.
Here's the truck engine minus the a/c compressor.

[390 Cougar Conv]

That is one tough truck.  Good luck with the build. Clifford

[My427stang]

Looks good! 

I haven't got mine on the road yet, fresh paint, not quite assembled and salty roads, but I will let you know how my "low RPM" 445 works out

I went with a 270H, heavily ported D2s and CJ valves and a Performer RPM.  It feels like a monster, but we'll see when i can get it out on the road.  The cam sounds pretty mild though  

[turbohunter]

I'll be very interested in your results.

Here is my block.
It has a reman number on it. It looks to be in good shape. Bores are clean, small amount of surface rust in places. Caliper read 4.15ish so it may be the end of the road there.
Still waiting on the sonic scan.
Can you gents make sense of the date code? I can't read it, but I have no experience reading them.
Just curious if a trained eye can do better.

[KMcCullah]

Welcome Marc! You ARE in the right place for your FE learning experience. Sweet little '74 there. I'm a truck guy too. (for now) I was relieved to see fendewell headers are available for a 4wd FE. Never heard of Mad Dog Headers so did a Google search. I need some BAAAAAAD!

[turbohunter]

I need some BAAAAAAD!

Haaaaah
Awesome.
Mark the owner of Maddog was very informative about my time schedule and answered any questions I had. My headers are very well made.
I'm sure I'll have to make things fit (steering maybe) but what would life be without exercising your brain a bit.
Really stoked I found this forum. Trying to learn as much as possible.
And freakin' love all your cars, jeeeeeez.

[turbohunter]

Question gentlemen.
As I previously stated the bores in my block initially calipered at 4.15 ish.
As I was researching on Barry Rs site I came across the displacement chart for the different FE base blocks.
390 base blocks bore range is from 4.0 to 4.11.
406-428 base blocks range from 4.13 to 4.19.

http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/FE-Stroker-Displacement.html

I always figured my block was a run of the mill 390 based FT (maybe) block.
Did I luck into a nicer block than I thought?
Certainly no As or Cs scratched into the rear.
And yes, still waiting on the sonic test.

[jayb]

The sonic test will tell the story.  I've got a 390 FT block that can easily be bored to 428 size because the cylinder walls are really thick.  A run of the mill 390 FE block won't be that thick, but some people bore those to 428 size too, although that is a dangerous practice.  So the block you have will be revealed by a good sonic test.  If you start seeing wall thicknesses less than .125", it is probably a normal 390 block that has been bored an excessive amount.

FT blocks also have a larger hole where the bottom of the distributor shaft goes in, because the FT distributors use a larger diameter shaft at the bottom (below the gear).  Ford sold a bushing for the FT blocks that presses in the hole, and allows an FE distributor to fit.  Does your block have that bushing pressed in?  Or maybe a better question, has it ever been run with an FE distributor?

[turbohunter]

Don't know the history of the block.
But here's some pics.
Guess you can tell I'm pretty geeked about this and my future builds.

[jayb]

Looks like a standard FE block to me, not an FT.  Have you got a picture of the main cap area?  A 428 block will have some webbing structures between the block sidewalls and the main saddle.

[turbohunter]

Here you go.

[jayb]

That definitely appears to having the webbing around the mains.  Could be a 428 block...

[ScotiaFE]

Interesting.
The date code is an odd duck. the screw on the left is not normally seen.
They "normally" have two screws like the one on the right.
There appears to be two dots so that would put it into the 70's
and the D4 on the side so you have a truck block cast some time in the early to mid 70's on May 11th. LOL
You can have a FT type casting machined as a FE. As in dissy bore.
My D4TE "SPECIAL" is machined that way. It has thick walls and extra webbing.
As was mentioned a sonic check and a crack check will tell the most.
Great Truck!

[jayb]

You can have a FT type casting machined as a FE. As in dissy bore.
My D4TE "SPECIAL" is machined that way. It has thick walls and extra webbing.

Hmmm, I didn't know that.  Any idea how often that may have happened Howie?  That would pretty much explain this block if it turns out to have good wall thickness...

[ScotiaFE]

I'm not really sure how common that may be.
I don't know what application my D4 block came in. I got it as a stock short block.

[turbohunter]

Ok got the sonic test back.
Bores are 4.115.
Getting some pretty "thick" readings like 150 to 200+.
but then there are one or two places under 100.
Sorry the pic is so small.
In case you're wondering, Dustin Lee is the young kid I'm having do the work.
He an up and comer that campaigns a digger in Top Dragster.
He runs in the 6.80s with it.
Used to work for my brother at SCE Gaskets.
Curious to hear what you guys think about the block.
As I look at it more, the two thinest spots are the top rear of cylinders one and two ( 87 and 94 ).
Every thing else is well over 100 (well, rear top of 5 at 103).
In talking with Dustin, I'm thinking about being conservative and honing the block to 4.12 with a 4.125ish stroke.
It is a truck after all and if this is a "special" block I'd hate to ruin it.

[jayb]

That sounds like a good strategy to me.  The thrust surfaces of the block look thick enough, but anytime you get a spot where the wall thickness drops below .100" you want to minimize any boring that is done.  4.12" seems like the right bore size to go to.

[turbohunter]

Curious about the amount of cam y'all think I could get away with.
The heads are stock D2s that have been cleaned up. The Performer manifold has been port matched to the heads.
I originally bought an E'brock performer cam because it's conservative and I live in LA and figured I could sit in traffic with no ill effects.
I'm curious if you think I could get a little more aggressive because of the stroke being added (also decided to go with a roller set up) and still have it be able to be abused in our lovely traffic.
The cooling system will be great. I have secured the big radiator and will install an electric fan set up.
Very interested in the water pump discussions that have been taking place here also regarding volume.

[drdano]

Is there a specific reason you're looking at the 4.125 stroker crank and not the 4.25?  The 4.25 stroke assemblies have really proven themselves the past few years.

[turbohunter]

Started out wanting the longer stroke, but seeing the results of the scan chose to be conservative and go with the more square set up in order to take it a bit easier on it.
Those two thin areas on one and two worry me a bit.

[turbohunter]

That sounds like a good strategy to me.  The thrust surfaces of the block look thick enough, but anytime you get a spot where the wall thickness drops below .100" you want to minimize any boring that is done.  4.12" seems like the right bore size to go to.

Roger that on the bore size, but what do you or any of the guys think about stroke. Is staying more square (4.125) easier on the thinner walled section of the bore than going 4.25?

[jayb]

The difference on the thrust surfaces between a 4.125" stroke and a 4.25" stroke will be very small, in my opinion.  I'd go with the bigger stroke; more cubic inches will always help...

[turbohunter]

Well, finally got the block back in the shop at Dustins'.
It seems the PO had it bored without a torque plate so it was a bit out of round.
The final bore size came out to 4.125.
So after talking stroke over with Dustin at length (4.25 vs 4.125) I'm going to go with his recommendation of a 4.125 crank.
Here is my reasoning.
I'm backing off a hair for longevity.
The thrust sides are good but there are those two thin sides to think about.
I kinda dig that it's a square engine.
It's a 4x truck so I'm not worried about getting as much hp as I can.
It's gonna do a lot of traffic in LA so cooling is a big deal.
With cooling and engine life in mind I'm going to spring for coated bearings all the way through it.
I've seen these things (as I'm sure you all have) after many runs down the quarter and they look amazing.
I realize it may be overkill but want the best for my baby.
Rod length at 6.8.
Pistons are custom dishes from Ross with a little extra skirt length to keep 'em straight.
Going for 9.5 compression
Comp 270 HR (#33-422-9)
PRW rockers and shafts.
Port matched Ed Performer.
Maddog fenderwell exit headers
Going to try to get away with a 600 cfm carb as I have a couple 4100s already. Fully aware that may be a bit small.
Going to dyno it for break in and to test carb, timing, etc.

I want to thank you gents for all your input. And please feel free to rip into whatever you want 'cause as I said I'm just learning FEs.  :-)

[bartlett]

I also like a square motor . ... 

I think the performer is going to kill hp ..... 

[turbohunter]

I think the performer is going to kill hp ..... 

Agree, if you're talking about a hipo street or race motor.
I went back and forth on that.
But I referred to Jays book and was surprised at the low end torque.
Since this motor is in a 4x truck and will never see 5k, the low end is really what I'm after.
However, Jay left the runners stock, as new.
I couldn't help but open them up and match the head ports.
Maybe I screwed the pooch, but the dyno will tell.
Thanks for your thoughts. I really do appreciate it.

[bartlett]

yea I had a performer on my last 390 and it had lots of low end grunt it died at about 5g ... for a truck I see no harm if its just a street truck.

[My427stang]

I think the performer is going to kill hp ..... 

Agree, if you're talking about a hipo street or race motor.
I went back and forth on that.
But I referred to Jays book and was surprised at the low end torque.
Since this motor is in a 4x truck and will never see 5k, the low end is really what I'm after.
However, Jay left the runners stock, as new.
I couldn't help but open them up and match the head ports.
Maybe I screwed the pooch, but the dyno will tell.
Thanks for your thoughts. I really do appreciate it.

FWIW, I often tell my story about the Performer (althought it was unported) on my 4x4 in the 80s when the Performer came out, I paid nearly 400 for one.  I raced home to replace my 428 PI alum intake on a 4x4 truck with 35s, a low compression 390, and a 204/214 cam.  I replaced the intake and lost so much power everywhere that I swapped it back the same weekend.  Later I put a stock Street Dominator on it and it again lost nothing and pulled to redline with a 270H cam.

Hopefully your porting helps, but in the end, my favorite manifold for street truck is a ported Street Dominator.  I run a ported RPM in my 445 pickup now, but only because I had it.  I much prefer the street single planes for part throttle drivability and ease in tuning with all the top end power that any other street manifold can give.

If you spent the stroker money already, that 4.125/6.80 combo will run great, but the 4.25/6.70 has no durability issues at all.  Heck I built my 489 in 2006 and its as fresh as it was when I bought it.

Regardless which way you choose, next spring you can always slap a 750 and an RPM on it, and you'll get another "new" truck and extend the fun another year

[turbohunter]

That sounds like a good plan, runnin' it for a while then swapping to see the difference.
As far as the stroke.
I know all you guys are saying the extra stroke won't make a difference, and I fully acknowledge you ALL know more than I do about these babies.
Call me chicken.
I've got two more at least to build in the next year or two, so I'll start to get some confidence. Prolly obsessing a bit to much on the thin spots.

[amdscooter]

^^^ I'm a noob here myself and I can attest to the fact this group of guys excel at spending other peoples money giving great advise. Just kidding peanut gallery.  This forum probably saved me untold $$$ even for my mild refresh and have been great helping me tune it in. I was in the same boat late last year, new to FE's and little idea how to go about getting what I wanted outta that block of iron between the shock towers. I ended up resisting suggestions for more cam and went modest as well. No regrets at all and the advise I got here helped boost my confidence as I put it together. Keep us updated and let us know how your new FE does on the dyno!

[My427stang]

I bet the 6.80/4.125 rotating assembly cost more than an off the shelf 6.70/4.25, however, in the end, it'll be very nice either way. Don't mistake my comments to the oriognal poster for criticism

I would have to say that nobody is cheaper than me, but there are things that you should spend money on if you go so far.  The intake however is minor, it can be changed later and the stroke is merely discussion, heck if you build a stout 390 it'd be a blast in that truck.

[turbohunter]

Thanks guys.
I love talking theory about FEs.
I can't believe I got into them so late in life. I was always a windsor guy as a young'un cause thats what was around.
As far as spending the money, I have to say I'm probably a bit guilty of going over board, but it's 'cause I'm having fun. And since the kids are all just recently out of the house I'm going through my second childhood. Or is it my midlife crisis?
Well whatever it is, I'm having fun.
BTW the intake was free. My brother is a gasket maker and used it for measurements.

[turbohunter]

Ok, still getting used to the site.
Lets see if these pics of my pistons come out.
Shooting at 9.5/1 compression ratio

[My427stang]

I just woke up so my math seems to be a little clunky, but aren't those deeper in the hole than the card says?

4.125/2 + 6.8 + 1.275 = 10.1375, with a 10.170 deck that is .0325 under, that will take a heck of a cut to get to .005 below

FWIW, the compression should be fine, looking at it, my guess is he is going to cut the deck to 10.160, that would be 9.43:1 compression with a 72cc head,  but the quench is a smidge on the big side at .063.  That's not horrible, just a little bigger than most do nowadays

BTW, those pistons would work well in a hot rod with a 4.375 stroke and a 6.7 rod (assuming the long stroke motors use a 6.7 rod, I haven't done one yet)

[Barry_R]

That 1.275 compression distance number cannot be right looking at those pistons - they look way too far down from the top in his picture.  The 4.375 strokers with a 6.7 rod are normally putting the pin into or right up against the oil ring groove.

[turbohunter]

Sorry for the late reply.
Was at my daughters commencement all day.

Here's what I've got.
10.14 deck
4.125 stroke and bore
6.800 rods
1.275 compression height
Which should leave the piston in the hole by -.003ish
Heads cc'd at 76

The 6.7 vs 6.8 rods is where we miscommunicated. And the deck.

[My427stang]

OK, so I get .0025 below deck

Using a .041 head gasket, 4.4 bore, and the 20cc dish with 76cc heads and a 4.125 bore/stroke, I get 9.46:1 and .0435 quench.

Nothing wrong with that, just need to make sure you dont undercam, using a 106 ICL, I would not go less than 260 advertised duration.  However, knowing you want a torquer, I would still like to see something like a 268-270 adv but on 104 ICL, just because I like the slightly added lift and duration for a stroker

[turbohunter]

  Just bought it from Barry
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1568&sb=2

[My427stang]

Should be a nice setup!

[turbohunter]

Ok just got home from my dyno session.
Ran into stupid little problems that I'm sure you all go through.
One was header bolts that didn't quite line up. Not to bad, a little grinding took care of that.
The one that really torqued me off was my brand new MSD distributor would not send a signal, so no spark.
It's new right, it's gotta be good. Must be wiring somewhere. Nope, it was the darn new out of the box dizzy.
Can you say, "you mean I have to put another gear on".
Got a new one and got past that and changed the gear AGAIN.
Now on to the good part.
The engine did exactly what we wanted it to.
It's nice when a plan comes together.
It's a great truck motor.
400 hp 500 ft lbs
Notice the Super Flo only spit out numbers from 3100 rpm.
Figuring a bit more torque at 2500.
Fired it up with an 830 Holley and it made more hp with that (411).
Ended up with a 700 which of course was better down low and better for the street.
These numbers are from the 700.
The darn girl just kept repeating run after run.

[turbohunter]

Thought I'd show you guys the top of the valve train.
Hoping to not have to break into this engine in the future (to much) I wanted steel rockers.
I was turned onto these PRWs by a local machine shop that has been in the business for many years.
I know that there has been some documented concern over the hardness of the adjusters (and the fact that they are produced in Asia) so what I did was get some Manton adjusters as well as Manton pushrods.
They are stout pieces. All was well in the dyno session. Will let you know if I have any issues.
Had to do a little clearance grinding for the top of the pushrod.

[My427stang]

Looking good!

[turbohunter]

Thank you.
This was my first ever dyno experience and I'm over the moon with the plan and the process coming together.

[My427stang]

What is the "before" motor in the truck now?  Interested in hearing the difference between old and new!

[turbohunter]

It's a 2bbl 360.
Runs like velvet but zero (qualified) grunt.
Was trying to keep the drivability but have my cake and eat it too thus the mild top end.
Actually quite surprised at the hp numbers.
Can't wait to see the difference.
I have a complete new drive train to install.

[jayb]

Those are great results, Mark, they will make a HUGE difference in that truck.  Thanks also for the rocker pics.  I'm a big fan of steel rockers, when they are available, because they don't have the limited life that aluminum rockers will typically have.  They are heavier, of course, but in an application like yours weight isn't really a concern, so they are probably a really good choice, especially after replacing the adjusters.

Tell us more about the dyno experience.  What surprised you, what didn't, etc.  How much tuning did you do on the engine?  Timing, carb, or ??

[turbohunter]

Those are great results, Mark, they will make a HUGE difference in that truck.  Thanks also for the rocker pics.  I'm a big fan of steel rockers, when they are available, because they don't have the limited life that aluminum rockers will typically have.  They are heavier, of course, but in an application like yours weight isn't really a concern, so they are probably a really good choice, especially after replacing the adjusters.

Tell us more about the dyno experience.  What surprised you, what didn't, etc.  How much tuning did you do on the engine?  Timing, carb, or ??

Thanks so much Jay.
I had one of the most fun days of my adult life. I loved it. Even the pre dyno pull stuff of fitting the engine and making things work.
Solving problems was great fun.
What surprised me was the hp numbers (high of 411). I seriously was not shooting for a big horsepower number and thought we'd come in from 350 to 375 because of the stock D2s, low cr and mild cam. I think that the ending combination of good parts and solid assembly (for instance back cutting the valves) made the difference. I think also that that cam though mild is well thought out.
I WAS shooting for torque. The dyno we were on only spat out numbers from 3100 up and I would've loved to see the 2500 numbers. That's probably where it made most of its torque.
Was very pleased that it held it's numbers throughout the pull pretty well.
We started it up on an 830 Holley shop carb because it was a known factor. It made the most hp but not as much torque.
I figured I was going to run a 650 on the street but I have a 700. We installed the 700 and everything was pretty much as before but hp was down a little and torque was up. But very slightly on both accounts. Didn't even bother with the 650.
As far as timing we knew the basics and started there 12 initial and 33 to start with in by about 25 or 2600. Light springs in the MSD from the beginning. We went to 36 but it didn't seem to need it or want it and we ended up a hair over 34 total.
It just kept repeating the same numbers and acted great the whole time.
We could have tuned a bit more but it was late and we collectively were very happy with it.
Now I understand why you have a dyno. It is a blast, I'm hooked.

[My427stang]

It's a 2bbl 360.
Runs like velvet but zero (qualified) grunt.
Was trying to keep the drivability but have my cake and eat it too thus the mild top end.
Actually quite surprised at the hp numbers.
Can't wait to see the difference.
I have a complete new drive train to install.

I went from a healthy 390 to a 445 and it was night and day.  You are going to be tickled pink.  Great work, when's the swap?

[turbohunter]

Got two weeks over xmas if I can sched the time with family and wife.
Wall to wall till then.

[turbohunter]

The eagle has landed.

[jayb]

Lookin' good, Mark...

[cjshaker]

That's one small step for man.....one GIANT leap for your truck! 

That will most definitely add some "grunt" to it! Looks really good too! Just an observation, but I believe those MSD Blaster coils are oil filled and designed to be kept vertical for proper cooling. At least that's what they recommend.

[My427stang]

Awesome, can't wait to hear the results!

[turbohunter]

I believe those MSD Blaster coils are oil filled and designed to be kept vertical for proper cooling. At least that's what they recommend.

Thanks for bringing that up.
I had that in my head to check and forgot about it. I'll check it out.

[turbohunter]

Thought I would update you guys so you don't think I've been goofing off.
Lotsa little details before start up but I'm almost there.
I replaced the entire drive train at the same time so I'm detailed to death.
It's coming along nicely though.
I'll make noise soon.

[Lenz]

Looks (and I'll bet sounds) great Marc . Compare those engine shots with your first one at the beginning of the thread.  You stated that you replaced the entire drivetrain, what trans did you end up going with?

[turbohunter]

what trans did you end up going with?

As you know getting over drive trannys to mate with an FE is quite involved so I stayed with the NP 435 but had to find a four wheel version with a different tail shaft that would mate with an NP205 transfer case.
Original set up was a 435 mated to a Dana 21 which is a light duty transfer case and only one range. The NP 205 is much stronger and has a high and low range. I also double sticked the t case so that I have a high and low 2 wheel as well as high and low four wheel drive. I will also put a Gearvenders overdrive in line for the highway. Gearvenders only will mate to an NP 205 also. They don't make a Dana 21 unit. So The upshot is that I will have a huge amount of gears to choose from and with the torque from the new engine it will chug along nicely in overdrive as well as crawl slowly if the need arises.

[Lenz]

Well thought out and a gear for every occasion-  I believe that's the same stuff I had behind the 390 in my '74 F250 (less the G/V OD of course.), all plenty stout pieces.

[turbohunter]

a gear for every occasion-  I believe that's the same stuff I had behind the 390 in my '74 F250 (less the G/V OD of course.), all plenty stout pieces.

Exactly.
I just want it to hang together forever.

[Lenz]

I do believe it will.  I pulled some crazy stunts with my F250 and it just kept rockin' (including when I and 2 friends rolled it back onto it's wheels for the 200 yard ride back home).  Back then, they tended to stuff in overkill 'cause they didn't computer model to engineer it to the brink and warranty stuff sucked both in $ and reputation.  That's a great ride you've got there, and you are now equipped to tug a small ranch house off the foundation if you can get the traction

[turbohunter]

Ok, took my time made sure everything was cool.
Everything primed and ready. I knew the engine/timing was good from the dyno runs.
Yet when you fire one of your babies up for the first time in it's home, it's just pure joy.
I think you gather that from this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuTCAoPlT8Y

[My427stang]

Sounds good!

[fastback 427]

Sounds very healthy! With those power numbers its going to be a blast to drive. I'm not going to ask you what mileage it will get,  judging by the look in your eyes it will be in the fours way to much!!

[turbohunter]

It's paid for and the insurance is cheap.
That only leaves two things to pay for,,,,,,gas and tires.

[Lenz]

Great little clip, your baby started breathing immediately, and on it's own too .  Liking the sound of that idle...

[jungle0758]

I just looked up mad dog headers,I'm going to have to buy a set for my u13 they look like they will let me move my motor back at least 2 more inches as compaired to the fenderwell headers off my f250 4x4.

[turbohunter]

I just looked up mad dog headers,I'm going to have to buy a set for my u13 they look like they will let me move my motor back at least 2 more inches as compaired to the fenderwell headers off my f250 4x4.

Friend of mine has used them twice said they bolt into his F250s with plenty of room.
However the drivers side of my F100 4x is real tight. Could be a half ton thing. Passenger side is plenty fine.
I would call Mark at Maddog and ask about it. He's a nice enough dude.

[cjshaker]

I'm not going to ask you what mileage it will get,  judging by the look in your eyes it will be in the fours way to much!!

 
Sounds great, Mark. Gotta love it when it fires up that quick. That's going to be a stout, bullet proof drivetrain for sure.
I may have missed it, but do you have something to keep your rear axle from wrapping up? The old 4x4s are pretty bad about that when you add some horsepower. Makes it really hard on the U-joints.

[My427stang]

I'm not going to ask you what mileage it will get,  judging by the look in your eyes it will be in the fours way to much!!

 
Sounds great, Mark. Gotta love it when it fires up that quick. That's going to be a stout, bullet proof drivetrain for sure.
I may have missed it, but do you have something to keep your rear axle from wrapping up? The old 4x4s are pretty bad about that when you add some horsepower. Makes it really hard on the U-joints.

You can say that again, some of the Bronco suppliers make an over the axle traction bar sort of like a Shelby, I need to do it on mine too. 

Big tires, lots of torque and the big spacer between the spring and axle will let them twist like a pretzel then unload with a BANG

[turbohunter]

Yeah I hear you guys.
I had the same thoughts about spring wrap.
I had Deaver build me this set of springs that got rid of the OEM blocks which as you know was a big deal.
Also with the over loads and just the mass of the stack, I'm hoping it does the trick.
If not then it'll need some sort of traction bar.
I think these springs may do it though. BTW they ride great.

[My427stang]

I run a 9 leaf stack too, the issue isn't as much with the front wrapping (like a car) its with the rear spreading open. 

I have 2.25 inch springs in a 71, yours should be 3 inch, hopefully there won't be as much of a issue.  Not to mention, the only issue I have is when I side step the clutch like a 20 year old, LOL, so you could just "not do that" too

[turbohunter]

so you could just "not do that" too

LOL

[cjshaker]

so you could just "not do that" too

LOL! Good luck with that.

I remember your spring picture post now. Even without dumping the clutch, a spirited take-off will wrap them up pretty good also. Big tires, like Ross mentioned, just compounds the problem. That's a pretty good spring package and you only have 2 unclamped support springs, so that should help a lot. Re-drilling the clamp on the rear so that the bolt is closer to the springs will help also if you find you have a problem.

A torque bar is pretty easy to make if the need arises.
That's going to be a FUN truck when you get it on (or OFF!)  the road

[turbohunter]

so you could just "not do that" too

Re-drilling the clamp on the rear so that the bolt is closer to the springs will help also if you find you have a problem.
A torque bar is pretty easy to make if the need arises.
That's going to be a FUN truck when you get it on (or OFF!)  the road

Yeah can't wait to wring her out a bit.
That's a great idea about re-drilling the clamps.
If I do have a problem it'll be fun to sneak up on the answer with things like that.
Also still working on getting the coil upright. Not much room once the ac compressor is on. Will prolly just fab up a block to put it at a 45.

[Mancar1]

Love the sweet sound your motor makes. Music to the ears. That will be one great ride.

[turbohunter]

Thank you very kindly.
I have to admit I've watched that vid at work quite a few times just cause it sounds so darn nice.
Can't wait to get to tweaking on it.

[turbohunter]

Muffler shop had an opening so I quick like a bunny ran it down to the shop uncorked.
How fun was that? Plenty.
Got it back last night.
So here's the first start up this morning.
Maybe a leak to find but all in all it's nice to have it in shape to tune.
Only carb adjustment so far is idle.
Will get into that when I get back from a week long business trip.
Also not real happy with the angle the muffler shop took out of the flange.
You can see it in the vid. They were trying to hide it for me. No worries, now that I have time I can make a nice S bend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SObYxSQ5wtM

[jayb]

Open headers on the street are the greatest!  The looks you get...    

[turbohunter]

Just a quick follow up on the build.
This is a happy truck.
The drivability is great. You can let the clutch out in 2nd gear and it just rolls. It has no idea what a hill is. And it hauls the mail.
Haven't dumped the clutch in anger yet but soon.

One thing that may be of interest to you guys, I know you prolly all know this but I need to beat myself over the head to learn. In southern Cal, it gets hot as hades and I sit on the freeway a bit so I threw in a 160 t stat to deal with the summers. I know all the arguments/theories about why to use a 180 but real world experience with windsors (I know different structure) has taught me different (here in SoCal). Also when I bought the truck it didn't have a rad shroud so for the first time since I've owned the truck I put one on and I'll be damned if this engine won't heat up even sitting at idle in the heat (we've had a bit of it here lately). I mention this because one of the reasons I went with a full roller set up was to keep it cool on the freeways. So it looks like I'll be throwing in a 180. I guess old dogs can learn.

So over all I'm ecstatic with the build. It does everything I wanted it to and so far no whining.

[fastback 427]

Isn't it nice when stuff works out and you actually get what you want out of a project? Super nice truck and the video sounds amazing. Btw you just cost me some money as I picked up a truck too. Thanks

[turbohunter]

Yeah it's a good feeling to have all that work and money turn out well.
Congrats on the new truck and glad to be of service

[mlcraven]

Wow! Great truck and very nice sound.  In my experience a good fan shroud is a major part of any cooling solution, folks do run without 'em but it isn't ideal.  BTW, love the '63 T-bird.  Very tasty in black with the chrome 5 spokes.

[turbohunter]

Thank you Michael
That T bird just lost reverse so I figured, what the heck, I'm tearing it down all the way and fix all the little problems. Right after my Fairlane and Mustang LOL. But I think I'll make it an EFI car as its a dd.
As far as the shroud goes, I'm a believer. When I started the truck for the first time I didn't have a shroud yet and it was perfect. The shroud goes on and I could not believe the difference in the temp.
I only have the truck gage and not a numerical gauge but it went from the low side of the normal range to not in the range at all, shroud is only difference.
BTW your car is very nice, congrats.

[turbohunter]

Well, remember a page back when I was hoping the spring package I have would take care of spring wrap.
Uhhhh,,,,,,,,no.
I submit this video as proof they don't.
Really the first time I laid on it, hard.
I immediately called Calvert. They do truck stuff also and are local to me.
I'm thinking with some traction control it might be a perfect truck.

http://youtu.be/oZ4vjnOJlmU

[Bolted to Floor]

Yea, you may want to do something about the axle wrap!!!
Thanks for the ride in the video.   

[turbohunter]

Yea, you may want to do something about the axle wrap!!!
Thanks for the ride in the video.   

Yeah you think?
I also learned that I suck as a narrator. 

[My427stang]

Welcome to my world!

Seriously though, don't burn out anymore.  The traction and leverage with the big tires and axle spacers create a hell of a load on each "hop"

If lucky, you'd break an axle, but realistically it'll be pinion housing or transfer output that will break on a pickup.  Once you get things stabilized it will either hook or burn clean.  Hooking would be best, but even a steady burning tire, although not fast, really doesn't hurt anything too much.

Here is a cheap fix for the wide spring guys like you.  99 bucks and should do the trick.

http://www.jamesduff.com/eb/tractionbars_stabilizers.html

Mine are 2.25 and I think I will end up having to modify something like that

[turbohunter]

That's a great fix, thanks for the link Ross.
I called Calvert but was hesitating because I didn't want anything hanging down on a 4x.
That Duff deal is perfect and I had forgotten about them.
I don't plan on anymore burnouts until it's fixed. That was actually the first time I gunned it going straight and flat.
I think you can tell I was surprised. That's why I did the second one and my brain caught up with me and realized what was going on.
But the good thing is the engine runs great
BTW no spacers, that's all spring.
Edit
Parts ordered

[Bolted to Floor]

Yea, you may want to do something about the axle wrap!!!
Thanks for the ride in the video.   

Yeah you think?
I also learned that I suck as a narrator. 

Practice makes perfect. Make another video after the fix.   

[My427stang]

Did you order the Duff traction bars?  Wondering if they worked out well, I am planning to buy a set too

[turbohunter]

Yes, I have them in my possession. They are wonderfully simple.
Haven't had a chance to install yet but did a mock up, it's pretty easy.
As soon as I get a day I'll install and show pics as well as a comparison rolling burnout.:-)

[cjshaker]

You don't suck as a narrator, but you will get a much fuller video if you turn it sideways and fill up the whole video frame. Vertical shots have such a narrow frame that you lose a LOT of reference in the video and are losing 2/3 of the useable frame. If it's a cell phone video, the cell phone should automatically adjust if you turn it sideways.

The engine sounds GREAT! Smooth and a LOT of low end grunt. Perfect for a truck

[turbohunter]

The engine sounds GREAT! Smooth and a LOT of low end grunt. Perfect for a truck

Thanks Doug
It's nice when a plan comes together.
I'll try to work on my camera skills.

[turbohunter]

Ok, had a day to get the t bars in and no sweat.
Easy job. First side took an hour just to mock and check then do.
Second side twenty minutes.
Hardest part is drilling holes.
It's super clean and really, I wouldn't bother building my own after doing these as they are cheap and easy.
Thanks for turning me onto these Ross.
Vid below.



Quite a bit of difference between this vid and the last.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgiyzFoo4yI

[turbohunter]

Couple observations after a couple days with the traction bars installed.
First, as I mentioned in the vid, peddle flop from the rear end moving around is gone.
If you're a NP 435 driver you know what I mean.
Also 435 guys know if you don't give it enough gas when you take of you can chatter the clutch a bit which translates back to the rear. All that movement is gone. Since I drive in traffic a lot that really helps.
The driveline is much more solid. Thumbs up on these. Can't believe the difference.

[My427stang]

Awesome!

Can't wait to get mine on, I have a lot less spring than you and they wrap up BAD.  I have the same chatter issue due, despite a pretty decent Ram 11 inch clutch, looking forward to seeing how both issues change

[cjshaker]

  You know, as soon as you started driving I realized it would  be much easier to hold upright. I laughed pretty good at the end. Next time, just turn it sideways.....and tape it to your forehead

Looks like a great setup. Definitely a noticeable difference in the video! I'm gonna have to check out a set of these. Glad they worked out for you.

And yes, I know exactly what you mean about "pedal flop". In my Highboy, I also have an issue with "driver flop" when driving through crop fields to get to a woods. Got anything up your sleeve for that, Ross?

[turbohunter]

Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh
Things were going so well.
I noticed on my way home from work that my water temp was up a bit.
Got home and parked it, was throwing the ball with my dog in the front yard and looked over at the truck. Had a drip under the radiator over flow hose.
Oil in the coolant. Crap.
Well, that was fun for a while.

[jayb]

Wow, that sucks!  Been there, done that    Probably a head gasket, hopefully not something more serious.  How does the oil look?  Is there water in the oil too?  Pull the drain plug after it sits overnight and see if you get some water coming out before the oil does.

I would try the easy way out first if I were you, maybe retorque the head gaskets, tighten the intake manifold bolts, and throw some ceramic sealer in the cooling system to see if you can get the leak to stop.

[fastback 427]

Dang turbohunter, that sucks. Happened to me as well. Mine was a crack in the block from cam tunnel to rockers. Wondering what temp thermostat is in it and how hot did it get? Hopefully it's something easy like Jay said, but the block can be fixed if its leaking where mine was. Best of luck, maybe the fe gods will smile on you again!

[cjshaker]

Wow, that really sucks! Sorry to hear about that.
Like Jay said, try those things first. If there's no water in the oil then that's a very good thing. Hopefully it's not the oil transfer passage in the block and a head torque will take care of it. There shouldn't be any way for oil to get into the water due to the intake, but still wise to re-torque.
Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

[turbohunter]

No temp problems, it always runs cool.
Have a 160 t stat in it since I sit in traffic a bit. Was waiting until the super hot weather (this week we have 100 plus of course) to see if it made a difference then was going to install a 180 and see how that did.
Will check the pan oil in the morning.
Block was magged (though a passage may not be seen) before build and has run cool so fingers crossed.
Radiator is a mess with frothy oil.
Gonna keep a good attitude, all in all, still a hell of a lot of fun playing with these things.
Come on FE gods.

[fastback 427]

Frothy with oil? Seems like a big leak for the block to be cracked. When mine leaked it was just enough to make my hoses slippery ( coated with oil) on the outside, and a small buildup on the radiator cap. Hopefully head gasket!

[rockittsled]

Ouch  Keep us posted

[turbohunter]

Checked pan oil just now.
Pristine.
Here's the rad cap also.
When I shut it off the rad over flows with oil.
I think I'll take Jay's ideas and maybe add taking out the bolts that pass the head oil supply, coat those with sealer then retorque.
What do you guys think?

[jayb]

Ooooo, what a pretty blue picture    Or not.  Anyway, are you talking about removing the head bolt where the oil comes up and coating that with sealer?  I'm not sure what that would buy you, and depending on where you put the sealer you might actually block oil flow to the head.  You'd want to avoid that, of course. 

Glad to hear that there is no water in the oil pan.  So, oil pressure is somehow getting to the cooling system.  It could easily be the head gasket, right at the point where the oil passage up to the head is next to the water jacket in the head gasket....

[turbohunter]

Ok thanks Jay.
I'll go the easy way at first and follow your recipe.
Thanks again for your time.

[fastback 427]

I'd pull intake and heads, looking for oil saturation or a leak. What head gaskets are on it now? 1020 felpro? I've heard the victor seal better but never used them. Maybe cometics would seal the best but are 200 bucks and the block could still be cracked. If its overfilling your radiator that's a big leak and I would have my doubts about a block sealer like moroso, etc.

[turbohunter]

I get your point and it's a good one.
I think I'll make that decision after I try a retorque.
If it's good and tight, then the heads are coming off. If I feel like it's loose then I'll give the filler a try.
The gaskets are indeed Felpros. Never again.
I really don't care about the price of new gaskets if they work.

[turbohunter]

Well, decided to pull the engine and do it right.
I can't help myself.
Checked the torque of all bolts. All good.
Pulled the heads and can't blame the gaskets, they were fine.
Pressured up the oil system before head pull (no manifold) to watch it work, lotsa oil, no leaks visible or audible.
Pulled the heads and pressure checked the passages with air, no leaks.
Checked/pressurized bolt holes next to the head oil feeds, no leaks.
The block looks great. Hard to believe that it's cracked. Would've heard or seen something.
Gonna pull the heads apart and check them thoroughly.
On the positive side, the mechanicals all look great.
Plugs are perfect.
The search continues.

[bobford]

oil in water and not water in oil .I think you need to check the oil passage through the block that runs through the water jacket  and as oil pressure is damn near higher than water pressure some times they crack . ( WHY??) .As I remember is a pushrod with ends gut off driven with sealer on it down from top ,or???
 Seems to me I remember some one posting a service buliton on this (from FORD?)

[cjshaker]

Curious if you inspected the gaskets carefully? Did you notice nice sealing imprints from the head and block around the oil passage slot? No sign of any "non-imprinting", meaning it wasn't compressed enough to seal, around any ports, passages etc?

If that is the case, Bob could be right about the oil transfer passage through the block. I've always checked them by pushing a piece of rubber into the hole in the cam passage, then putting my rubber tipped air gun over the deck hole and pressurizing. Escaping air will be pretty easy to hear. But you have to make sure and get the rubber into the cam hole deep enough to get past the cam bearing or it will just escape out the bearings backside slot.

It's a bummer you have to go through this

[turbohunter]

One side is beautiful.
The other blurry side has the witness mark but its not as clean as the other side.
Also the end of the passage looks like it was deburred.

[turbohunter]

oil in water and not water in oil .I think you need to check the oil passage through the block that runs through the water jacket  and as oil pressure is damn near higher than water pressure some times they crack . ( WHY??) .As I remember is a pushrod with ends gut off driven with sealer on it down from top ,or???
 Seems to me I remember some one posting a service buliton on this (from FORD?)

Wouldn't pressurizing that passage with air give you some indication that it's leaking.
I would think you would be able to hear it, or see it bubbling through the oil in the valley.
Just re read Dougs post.
Since the short block is still together I can't get in there to block off the cam bearing area.
I plugged the opposite side and pressurized it. Since there is oil everywhere I was hoping to hear something.
Only got some bubbling around the lifters.
Didn't hear anything else.

[bobford]

 The crack would be in water jacket ,you would have to plug  both ends and one of the plugs would have to be able provide the air source and hear leak or fill waterjacket with water and check for bubbles (Damn old age my mind can't remember were bottom port is I ) think main bearing bore.
   Damn I saved that post about the repair fix, but can't find it in my  puter  it's as screwed up as I am!!!

[turbohunter]

It's a bummer you have to go through this

Thanks
Looking at it as a learning experience.

[cjshaker]

The crack would be in water jacket ,you would have to plug  both ends and one of the plugs would have to be able provide the air source and hear leak or fill waterjacket with water and check for bubbles (Damn old age my mind can't remember were bottom port is I ) think main bearing bore.

Actually, it comes from 2 of the cam bearings, fed from the center oil galley which is why solid lifter sideoilers require special cam bearings to feed oil to the heads.

That first picture looks perfect. Nice clean gasket lines and no visuals of fluid transfer out of the area. That blurry one looks like it could have an issue. It looks like oil MAY have been escaping there. Is that an air gap around that hole or just a shadow of some sort? Does the head gasket show signs of fluid transfer out of its slot? You could make a makeshift stethoscope out of some fuel line and rubber hose, stick it down that water passage while pressurizing the oil tube and listen carefully for air escaping in there. I think I would inspect that area very closely.

[ScotiaFE]

Here is a link to the block repair thing.

 http://www.gessford.com/images/FE-Block-Repair-AERA.htm

My thinking is those Felpros where not sticking on very good.
I don't see any blue on the block. They normally leave a blue covering when released.
They are to be put on completely dry, maybe a very thin film of oil was still on the deck surface?

[Lenz]

Wow, been following along, good attitude to have in times of trouble (looking at it as a learning experience).  Hope you get it sorted out soon.  Makin' me a bit nervous about my Felpros, gotta say   last thing I did before I set the head gaskets was to wipe the deck down with lacquer thinner to get it as clean and dry as possible.  Fired mine up yesterday, got a couple of stupid questions for the group but that's another thread....

[turbohunter]

That fuzzy picture is getting into my head more and more.
All the junk on the deck is annoying me.
The one side is so clean.
See all the stuff around the outside of the cylinder?
Also at the feed hole itself there is the wisp of a channel toward the bolt hole.
Would you guys comment on the amount of crap on the surface?
Is that surface crud normal in a FE?

[cjshaker]

That fuzzy picture is getting into my head more and more.
All the junk on the deck is annoying me.
The one side is so clean.
See all the stuff around the outside of the cylinder?
Also at the feed hole itself there is the wisp of a channel toward the bolt hole.
Would you guys comment on the amount of crap on the surface?
Is that surface crud normal in a FE?

That's what I was commenting on. To me it does not look like it was sealing right in that area. Too much discoloration from fluids. There is also carbon present outside of the head gaskets sealing ring which indicates it was not sealing combustion pressure properly either. Do you have a straight edge to check the deck and head for any warpage? I would start there to verify that you have a good sealing surface. If it checks out ok, then look further toward the oil passage and head gasket itself.

Can you give a detailed shot of the head gasket in that area, and perhaps a better shot of that oil hole? I still wonder what that black area is around it. I'm beginning to think it is also carbon. So it may just be a bad head gasket....but you'll need to figure out why it went bad. Was it the gasket itself, or was there a cause for it to fail.

edit: It's nearly impossible to determine bolt torque from disassembly, so you may also want to check that head bolt for possible stretch (probably impossible due to mixing them up) and even check the threads out in the block to make sure they are not pulling out or stripping. It's happened before. Concentrate your detective work in that whole general area.

[turbohunter]

Thanks for clearing the picture Doug.

[turbohunter]

Must say, this detective work is fun.
Sat down with my engine today to let it talk to me.
Took my time and just looked at stuff.
Had the feeling it's not the block.
Took a good hard look at the oil galley from the cam and it hit me.
Those holes don't look the right size.
Got the camera down there to take a pic and the camera could see what my eyes could not.
Different metal.
These passages have been sleeved already.
That's not a gasket mark that's different metal.
3/16 passage.
Which cracks me up because the top of this engine is absolutely flooded with oil even with smaller galleys AND restriction in the head.



You can really see the sleeve here.



Normal passage on another block. 5/16.



Ok so we know along with that and the fact I couldn't get it to leak with compressed air, it's prolly not the block, at least there.

Next I started looking at all the crud on on the dirty side.
It's really built up down the middle of the head.
Also notice the small channel from the oil riser to the bolt hole.



Also, the guy that originally did my heads used a decking machine that is old as the hills.
It's an old Storm Vulcan.
I'll leave it to you machinists to comment on how precise they are if they are from the dawn of time.
Notice the marks on the head side of the gasket.



Upshot of that session is that I took the heads over to be pressure checked.
If that checks out I'll have them re decked.
I'm figuring it is a decking problem that helped or led to the gasket giving up.
Whatchy'all think?

[turbohunter]

Well she's finally back together and running.
If I said that I had to clean out every little crevice that oil could go I would be understating heavily.
It was a bitch to clean everything out.
I haven't said anything online except to a few guys but since my brother is a gasket company (SCE) we worked on a new gasket for FEs. BTW Thank you guys for your comments.
It is a composite of aluminum, steel, and a mil spec coating (called nitrophene) from a gov contractor that is branching out. Also has beads around the water and oil passages. The first run is 4.250 bores with a compressed thickness of .040. We took out the metering hole between the block and head so there is nothing for the oil to push against and maybe work under. Overkill, maybe, but why not take it out since everybody meters the oil in the head or the block anyway these days. With the high volume/pressure oil pumps these days why give the oil a possible place to sneak in between the block and head.
These pics are on a 428 block I have in the garage not the truck engine.





Here's the vid of the truck running again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDiEzQxS3EM

[jayb]

Congrats Marc!  Great to be back on the road...

[turbohunter]

Great to be back on the road...

Indeed it is. Thanks Jay.
Hope your SOHC repairs go well.

[thatdarncat]

Let me say thanks to you and your brother for the FE gasket development. I don't know if it's too late, tooling wise, or possible, but I just wanted to point out a feature of most FE headgaskets. The original Ford gasket and the aftermarket ones I'm familiar with have a "notch" on the lower rear edge of the gasket. The purpose of the "notch" is to let the engine builder know that the gasket is installed properly with the closed water passage at the front. If the gasket is put on correctly a corner is visible at the front of the assembled engine. If the gasket is not installed correctly the corner is not visible at the front. It's a known FE feature mechanics check if an overheating engine is reported. The gasket you have shown looks like it is made to accommodate a SOHC oil drainback which would interfere with the notch section, but on a standard gasket that wouldn't be an issue. An original Ford SOHC headgasket was "bulged" past the straight edge of the gasket for the oil drainback, which also would be visible if the gasket were installed incorrectly. Certainly not something that affects the function of the gasket, but a feature I wanted to make you aware of. This picture is just to illustrate the notch I'm talking about. The pictured gasket is upside down. Looking forward to seeing what else you guys develop.

[turbohunter]

I'll pm you my brothers info and you can yak away with him.
He would be glad to here from you.
He is very aware of the FE world and wants to contribute.
He still has to do tooling for different bore sizes so it's not to late to throw some ideas around.
Glad you noticed the drain backs.
Also notice the huge "FRONT".
He did the gaskets as a mirror so that there is no way to screw it up. Hopefully.

[Bolted to Floor]

I bet that's a good feeling when the truck moves under its own power. Here in the next year and a half, I should find out what it's like with the Mustang.
Cool gaskets, it's always good to see more parts and pieces coming available for these motors.

[My427stang]

Good stuff!  Glad to see it's running again.

[machoneman]

Great news but....was it solely the old head gaskets that caused the leakage?

[turbohunter]

Great news but....was it solely the old head gaskets that caused the leakage?

I put a real straight edge on the head and I couldn't see anything.
But when I had them redecked another shop said they were a bit sloppy. Plus if you look at the deck pics it sure looks like the middle of the head (length wise) didn't clamp.
Take that for what it's worth. The finish was pretty rough but I understand (was told) that's a normal finish with an old machine.
You can see it on the Felpros.
I know that the first valve job was a leaker and the guides scratched the hell out of a few stems.
This by a shop that has many years of experience and is well known and well thought of. We found those problems before the first build and fixed them.
I'm gonna have to say it was a combination of a few things. But I keep going back to that picture of the deck with the fire ring tab extending into the water jacket and the stain of oil into it.
I tell you what, I sure have learned a lot about what to look for, like the 4.400 bore size of the Felpro with my little 4.125 bore.
And dirty gas.
From now on it's my fault. But that's what I wanted from this engine is to learn. Boy have I.
Now on to my next class in FEs.

[turbohunter]

Well, good news to report.
After cleaning the engine out as much as possible while apart, I filled it with water to run it and check.
Had a few drops of oil float back up to the top of the radiator. Ran it a few days then today emptied the entire system while still almost hot (block and all).
A little oil out of the rad but nothing out of the block.
So filled 'er up and will run water again for another week or two then drain again.
But it looks real good.
Also my brother turned me on to a set of exhaust gaskets that work real nice.
No exhaust ticks at all.
Also changed valve covers.
Never really got used to the black deals and they are a pain to get off even with the fins under the a/c ground off.
Had a set of Offy's just hangin' around the garage and put those on.
They actually fit the engine room scheme better but were dead bare so had to build baffles and drill new oil and pcv holes.
Also ground the fins off the rear under a/c and they go on and off real well.
One other observation, and this may be old news to most of you but new to me.
I've never run a fuel pressure regulator before, but had a bit to much pressure off the pump ( 9+).
So put one inline and had to trial and error it for a few days to get the float bowls to like a pressure.
Ended up at about 7.5 and the bowls seem to be holding a nice level.
I've read it both ways online that fuel pressure does not and does affect bowl level.
Certainly seems to me that it does.
What have you gentleman experienced?
Bottom line is she's running great again.

[jayb]

Those valve covers look nice; they were worth the effort.

[Bolted to Floor]

The higher the fuel pressure, the more likely it would be to push past the needle and seat after the float has raised up to stop flow into the bowl.

When you going to take another video so we can go for a ride? 

[turbohunter]

When you going to take another video so we can go for a ride? 

Was thinking about that but a little different. Thinking of using a GoPro underneath to watch the rear suspension work.
I'm not happy with the ride now because the traction bar set up, though working well for traction does not allow the spring to do its job.
I believe this is because the t bar is at an angle because my truck is lifted a bit. Thus when the spring tries to compress the t bar keeps it from doing that, making the ride not as supple.
Have thought of two ways to solve it.
One, buy a set of shocks to go where the solid t bar is.
Two, extend the t bar anchoring point up at the axle so that the t bar sits level, thus rotating with the axle instead of pushing to the front stop and stopping the spring flex.

[machoneman]

Maybe a few pics here would help us to visualize your suspension issues? 

[turbohunter]

Here you go Bob.
You see the axle end of the bar is lower than the front point.
So when the axle tries to go up it gets stopped by the bar being forced into the front mount.
I think that if I build taller rear towers or use a shock it will allow the axle to move naturally.
Watchya think?
Edit
You know, just looking at that second pic, if I move it to the rear hole that would gain me a little altitude. Might help the geometry a bit.
Think I'll try that first.

[4twennyAint]

Take out the polyurethane at the front and stick a decent valve spring in there...watch for coil bind!

[turbohunter]

Take out the polyurethane at the front and stick a decent valve spring in there...watch for coil bind!

What a great, out of the envelope thought.

[machoneman]

Yes, I'd try the 2nd hole first and check the results.

Two more thoughts. Getting the bar as near parallel to level methinks would help and going to the 2nd hole alone won't do it. Instead, you could easily fab-up a pair of flat steel plates and mount them to the two existing holes with bolts. When fabbing, the new plate could have 3-4 holes drilled to allow some angle changes ala' a Pro Stocker's 4 link setup. I'll try and get a pic first and give my 2nd idea.         

[turbohunter]

Yes, I'd try the 2nd hole first and check the results.

Two more thoughts. Getting the bar as near parallel to level methinks would help and going to the 2nd hole alone won't do it. Instead, you could easily fab-up a pair of flat steel plates and mount them to the two existing holes with bolts. When fabbing, the new plate could have 3-4 holes drilled to allow some angle changes ala' a Pro Stocker's 4 link setup. I'll try and get a pic first and give my 2nd idea.         

Yes, exactly my thoughts.
Would love to see your pix.

[machoneman]

Pic:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Alston-Race-Cars/064/181314/10002/-1

Not the best pic but....look to the left for the multi-drilled plate. Could not find one with arc drilled holes but....one could space said holes on a small arc to allow the bar to move back, so to speak, as the bar flattens out when it get near parallel to the ground.

Got it! The Bickel pic shows the arc I speak of that one could replicate with those 2 steel plates bolted to the existing holes.

http://www.jerrybickel.com/rear-suspension-and-components/front-4-link-brackets-jb-012a.html

The second thought was with all those springs (9?) does the suspension really work at all or is it bound up like a solid mounted rearend?

 

[turbohunter]

The second thought was with all those springs (9?) does the suspension really work at all or is it bound up like a solid mounted rearend?

Believe it or not, it's very supple.
I had those custom built.
They are very progressive so that the ride is real nice.
As you load it they get progressively tougher.
Notice how thin the leaves are, then overloads at the bottom.
That's why the stack of nine.

I think I can fab a piece that will work nicely to level out the t bar.

Love the spring replacing the bumper idea also.
I'll try a few things.
Should be fun.

[Bolted to Floor]

What about this thought process?? The springs basically move up and down in a straight line as they compress and return to a normal state, but the T bar moves in an arc. When the springs compress, the arc of the T bar causes the pinion to roll up. So, is raising the attachment point up really the correct answer? It seems like that would make the problem worse. The farther away from the spring pack, the more leverage the T bar gains to upset the balance. Or am I out in the broccoli patch wandering around? 

I did have an 85 Mustang GT that used a “shock” of sorts from the axle to a forward point on the car for wheel hop. It wasn’t a 4 X 4 with the kind of power you have, but it worked pretty well on the car.

[machoneman]

What about this thought process?? The springs basically move up and down in a straight line as they compress and return to a normal state, but the T bar moves in an arc. When the springs compress, the arc of the T bar causes the pinion to roll up. So, is raising the attachment point up really the correct answer? It seems like that would make the problem worse. The farther away from the spring pack, the more leverage the T bar gains to upset the balance. Or am I out in the broccoli patch wandering around? 

I did have an 85 Mustang GT that used a “shock” of sorts from the axle to a forward point on the car for wheel hop. It wasn’t a 4 X 4 with the kind of power you have, but it worked pretty well on the car.

Yes, exactly....which is why I said earlier that the suspension must move freely to work. The bar may be well preventing the correct movement of the rearend under compression...and allowing the bar to move in an arc with those add-on plates, ala' a true 4-link suspension and the holes drilled in an arc, should free up the movement and avoid the pinion twisting up.

One way (not that easy) to check this would be to mark the location of the rearend and remove all but the master spring but leave the bar. Using a floor jack, moving the rearend up and down would show the arc the bar takes as it moves up (compresses).  No doubt as it moves up the back of the bar moves back, twisting the pinion up, yet also revealing where the arc holes should be at various points.  A chunk of thin wood bolted in place (or those steel plates) could then be marked for the needed arc hole locations for drilling. The goal here is to also ensure the free, non-binding or non-twisting movement of the rearend due to the bar's effect.  That's why those Jerry Bickel 4-link brackets have those arc drilled holes. They are there not only to allow lots of adjustment range but also to ensure the bars do not 'work' to twist the rearend in unwanted directions.   

Btw, today using graphic software is how pro chassis shops check these issues. But, it wasn't that long ago using these crude methods to determine bracket and bar location points and lengths and actually see the movement of the rear suspension were used very successfully.         

[Bolted to Floor]

Looks like I was understanding the problem, but not grasping the solution.

Bob, thanks for the more detailed explanation. The fix will be to find the sweet spot to let it all move together?

Marc, That will a fun!! project to correct.

[machoneman]

Yep, and it isn't that hard to do either. Good luck!

[turbohunter]

Thanks Bob.
It does definately bind the system. Without the bar the suspension works well, but wheel hops under hard acceleration.
Hadn't thought about the pinion angle changing from the bar, only being held from rotating under acceleration.
Think I'll try the shock first.

[turbohunter]

Update.
Took the traction bars off in order to install shocks and immediately started going through u joints.
Interesting circumstance here.
The first replacement was for a VERY worn joint, but it was what you would expect.
Replaced the joint and within two days blew through the new one.
Weird, I've done u joints my entire life and that never happened.
Replaced that one with a new heavier duty deal from the same maker and blew through it in two days again.
Upon inspection, the two busted caps were dry.
I had noticed that no grease popped out of those caps upon lubing.
Both times. I'm assuming I ran into a run of joints with a blockage in the lube passages.
Parts store guys tell me that sometimes hard grease will block the passage.
So, installed another joint. Carefully lubed it on my bench using C clamps to hold the caps.
Perfection.
Installed the newest joint along with the traction bars, now located to the rear hole to see if it helped the binding.
Figured the extra torque, big tires, and graduated springs are the factors combining to tear 'em up.
So back in with the bars.
It does help a lot.
So far so good.
BTW my local great parts store replaced all joints, no questions asked.
Pays to be a good customer.

[turbohunter]

Spoke to soon.
Heard bearings pop this morning on the way to work.
Easy take offs. Being careful. Traction bars installed so no bad movement. Lubed well on bench and then installed.
No caps fall off. Easy spin.
Differential side every time though. Joint is in place under tabs. Collars tight.
Questioning the universe.

[thatdarncat]

You're not tightening the collars TOO tight are you? that can cause an issue by deforming the caps. Not sure of the design you have. Just asking.

[turbohunter]

I guess it's possible Kevin.
Never had a problem before.
Maybe I'm getting stronger in my old age.
I guess it's supposed to be about 15 lbs.
I don't know how much more I could go with a 1/2 inch wrench.
But I'll be more careful with that on the next go 'round.

[thatdarncat]

Maybe make sure you have locking nuts or locktite.

[turbohunter]

Hmm
Locking nuts would be great. Just have normal lock washers now.
Good idea.

[shady]

maybe joints without grease fittings. greaseable joints have to be hollow to let the grease through. non greasable solid? I don't know, just thinkin out loud.

[turbohunter]

Yeah I'm thinking this might be a good reason to update everything and go to a bigger joint.
The ole "as long as I'm doing this, I may as well do that" syndrome.

[superduty]

Check end play. Sometimes yoke will get bent on disassembly or axle yoke will have rust build up or galling on the ears
and will pinch the caps together too tight. Will take out a new u joint fast. Before installing joint on shaft install it in the
axle yoke and check for free movement. If too tight in shaft you might have to spread the yoke slightly with a drift to
get free movement.

[turbohunter]

Funny you bring that up.
I have a sneaking suspicion about parts. But the new ones.
Explanation.
Today I installed a u joint that I had forgotten about in my garage. Have had it for at least a year.
The joints I had installed in the past week have been a difficult fit between the tabs.
This one slid right in. So you see where I'm going. Also the caps have been breaking at the seal.



Stop and go traffic on the way to work and the old one from my garage worked fine.
To soon to be sure of anything though.
BTW checked and cleaned yokes, they seem fine. Also mic'd the caps and found no deformation.
There is however to much play in the diff so I'll fix that.

[ScotiaFE]

That is a pretty rough looking forging just from the little bit I can see.
A critical part such as that and well pretty much any part that actually
goes on the truck should at least come from a box with a bit of colour on it.

[machoneman]

maybe joints without grease fittings. greaseable joints have to be hollow to let the grease through. non greasable solid? I don't know, just thinkin out loud.

2X as I'd never use  a greaseable  joint in a high hp car. Tried that long ago and they did break right across the drilled and tapped zerk fitting hole!

[Barry_R]

Brand on U-joint?
Usually the answer to U-joint problems is "Spicer".

The majority of parts store joints these days are the cheapest parts the "manufacturer" (the term often now used for the company that installs parts in pretty boxes) can get out of China.  They can make good parts over there if you specify them - but almost every buyer I ever met in the replacement parts corporate world was interested in the cheapest they could find, and then can they get a better deal...

[turbohunter]

They're Moog joints Barry. Supposedly made in USA.
They have a grease fitting in the cap in order to eliminate the zirk in the body.
Update
I ran the joint I had in my garage yesterday to and from work and even got on it on the way home.
The joint held and worked well.
I've had it in my garage for at least a year so it would presumably be a different run than the four I had installed previously.
Will get on it again today and see what happens.
The second day is when they've been failing.

[My427stang]

How are you pressing them in? Anything different about the way you install?

Any strange marks anywhere?

Immediately after install, do them move nice and free?  I have seen some yokes that bind and you have to give the ears a good rap outward to free the joint after pressing it in.  I can't say that I would expect that to break a joint if you didn't do that, but I suppose if the bore alignment was off enough it could.

If I read this correctly you have broken a few in a short period, that doesn't sound like a joint problem, sounds like either an installation or bind issue.

[turbohunter]

Yes, I press them in.
And work them as well as lube as I go.
Today's drive to work will tell.
2nd day is when they've been giving up.

[turbohunter]

Let me preface by saying, I'm really tired (as I'm sure you are of reading) of talking about ujoints instead of engines but....... in the interest of information here we go.
I did some dumpster diving to get the box from the new joints and compare to the old box I had and what did I find?
First, the old joint I had in the garage was a different number than the new one.
But take a closer look.
The old ones were made in the USA the new ones are made in Mexico.
Looks like Moog gets crossed of the list.
BTW the old one is holding fine on day two.

[Barry_R]

I worked for those guys - Moog is  Federal-Mogul division.
A proud history but a clouded future...

They just purchase u-joints - they don't make them.  And I would suspect that they have a little more pride in what they toss in a box than do the white box mystery metal folks that populate the parts store business these days.  But I can pretty much promise that the days of aftermarket engineering and testing of outsourced components is behind them now.  They "trust" the vendor to do that stuff.

As I have said before - an offshore product can be perfectly fine and good quality.  The machines do not know where they are plugged in or who is hitting the buttons.  But if you tell a company or a person in other parts of the globe that your primary interest is how cheap you can get a given product - they will deliver you the cheapest product they can provide.  Unlike most domestic suppliers they make no assumptions of minimal quality or strength.  Their only point of reference may be a vehicle with 40 horsepower...

[My427stang]

Something is goofy here, those two numbers dont interchange, one is a 1310/1330 joint, the other is 1310 only

If both fit, one was misboxed, if both are different, not sure how you could have used it

I can't see how you could have used the adapter joint, but who knows

I think something goofy went on here, freak bad joint, hit something when pressing in, bad run, etc.  Hopefully it was a freak of nature and you can just drive it now.

[NIsaacs]

Is it possible the drive shaft is out of time?

Nick

[turbohunter]

Nope, the shaft is phased.
Ross, I wonder if the numbers are "revised" with the switch to Mexican manufacturing.
Remember the top one is 18 months older and made here. The bottom is new and made in Mexico.
Also one more number that I don't have yet of new joints. Supposedly heavy duty.
I broke four joints, one was the bottom number, 3 were the heavy duty number that I'll get today.

[NIsaacs]

The heavy duty version of the #369 is #280. I can't imagine 4 bad joints in a row. Are they all breaking the bearing shell like in the picture you posted or are some breaking the cross? How about a picture of the installed drive shaft, especially the differential yoke end.

Nick

[turbohunter]

Yes 280 sounds like the number.
And yes they all break at the seal groove.
Yeah it kinda drove me nuts for 2 weeks. I questioned everything I was doing after a lifetime of no probs.
But it really seems to me it's a manu/metal problem. And I'm not a basher just a realist.
BTW just measured the width and it was a chore to press the caliper to 3.22.
1310s should measure 3.219. I know that's close. I only mention it because the Mexican joints were a tight fit in the yoke. The old American joint fell right in.

[Joe-JDC]

Has your axle twisted in the clamps?  Is the pinion angle still correct or have you installed a lift kit and not changed the pinion angle?  There has to be a reason why they keep failing.  Joe-JDC

[My427stang]

I wonder if they have the wrong caps and when you push them in you are pushing on the leading edge of the cap against the body of the joint.

[turbohunter]

That's kinda what I'm thinking. Something is screwed up in their manufacture.
Trans output and pinion are 2 degrees away from parallel. The shaft angle is 7 degrees to the pinion.
There is a slight lift done with new springs but nothing big, just a couple inches.
Have been working my way back to the rear as far as replacing/rebuilding things.
There is some slop in the ring and pinion so I think my next deal will be to rebuild the rear end, adjust driveline angle to parallel and go to 1350 yokes and joints.
So far it seems that it's just inferior parts that are failing in a not perfect environment. The four foreign parts failed and the USA part is doing fine.
I know the driveline angles aren't perfect but they're not that bad for a low rpm 4x.

[blowrsnob]

Yes 280 sounds like the number.
And yes they all break at the seal groove.
Yeah it kinda drove me nuts for 2 weeks. I questioned everything I was doing after a lifetime of no probs.
But it really seems to me it's a manu/metal problem. And I'm not a basher just a realist.
BTW just measured the width and it was a chore to press the caliper to 3.22.
1310s should measure 3.219. I know that's close. I only mention it because the Mexican joints were a tight fit in the yoke. The old American joint fell right in.

IMHO. Nailed It!
From what I know about U-Joints..  the fact that the Mexican part (the one that failed early) is a larger O.D. than the American part (the one that's still alive) would likely cause very high pressure on the needle bearings (as others have suggested) in each of the bearings caps that are a tight fit whenever said tight cap rotates through the 'pinch point' since U-joints aren't constant velocity the bearing clearances have to be right. Next up, as you say, would be addressing the operating angles which your traction bars have been partially doing.
Interesting info about the MOOG/Federal Mogul two tier quality issue, coincides with an input from a trusted auto mech/racer who has also informed me that there are two quality levels available from MOOG. From what I was told one has to be very specific in the request for "MOOG American Made" in order to get the good stuff, and the price is commensurately higher.

[cjshaker]

I'm going to agree with Barry's comment about "Spicer". Moogs quality has slipped a bit from what I've noticed. I do believe they have 2 lines also, good and better. Or in todays world, cheap and decent.

No way is the slightly off driveline angle causing the problem. LOTS (that's L.O.T.S.) of trucks, including mine, have much more of a driveline angle difference and don't bust joints like yours have been. At least not that fast. I replaced mine 20 years ago and they are still fine, AND they are the greaseable type with the zerk in the body AND suffer from severe axle twisting under a hard load, not having any bars on the rear. The fact that they were so hard to press in tells me that quality is a bit off. They shouldn't be that hard to press in, and I'm sure you've done this enough to notice the difference between snug and TIGHT. Being that tight is putting undue pressure on the caps, and they are very hard/brittle. With the top of the cap being solid and the bottom open, a really tight fit can slightly oval the open end. It may still turn easily, but the pressure will work its evil magic. I've also never been able to overtighten a strap using just a 1/2" wrench, which is what I always use.

I'd go with Spicer, and if they're still really tight, maybe run a brake hone in the yokes to enlarge them a bit. I'll bet your problems will disappear.

[turbohunter]

Update on the traction control topic from a few pages/months ago.
I tried the rigid bar in all the positions. The rear was the best as it flattened the bar the most. But it was still at a non ground parallel angle. Thus it was still binding the suspension.
Bought a set of shocks that mimic the t bar length and installed them. Viola, perfection.
The rear feels very tight yet does not bind. No pedal flop from the rear end rotating.
Did a big burnout and no wheel hop.
Seems great so far.

[My427stang]

Very nice, I appreciate you pioneering the effort and saving me time on my F100

[jayb]

I wonder if those shocks work in a similar fashion to Competition Engineering's slide-a-link traction bar setup?  If so, you have hit on a really good alternative.  Are the shocks adjustable?

[turbohunter]

These are not but that is a good idea to really tune it up.

[fastback 427]

Very cool idea!!! Maybe another burn out / hole shot video is in order. Just for posterity 

[Bolted to Floor]

Very cool idea!!! Maybe another burn out / hole shot video is in order. Just for posterity 

I second that!!

[turbohunter]

Since it's a slow day on the forum and I have the day off I'll tell you my tale of wo'.
I'm going to chalk this one up to a learning experience with the words of Blair Patrick ringing loud and clear in my head.
Was driving to work the other day in my '74, cruising along the freeway on a Sunday with no traffic. Had the radio off just listening to engine music at 2500 rpm with no load.
All of the sudden nothing .............. then bang, bang, bang backfires. You should have seen the scramble of cars trying to get on, off, up, down or anywhere on the freeway (mind you this was a few days after Paris). Pushed the clutch in and shut it off and was trying to roll off to the side of the freeway with a couple of these morons blocking me as they were trying to pull off also for some reason.
Anyway, made it to the shoulder in a nice wide area.
I had recently lost a Mallory ignition box in my '61 F100 and figured this would be about the same deal. Either a coil or the 6AL.
I turned it over a couple times and figured out it was terminal so called for a tow.
When I got a chance to work on it I did all the spark tests and SOB, I had spark!
This is when the words of BP started to creep into my brain.
"After about 10,000 miles you'll find yourself on the side of the road". Crap, I still haven't changed to a steel dizzy gear, the bronze is still there.
I had checked it before and I know Kevin McCullough is getting mileage on them so I figured I was doing ok.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Go to the back of the line and start again.
Pulled the dizz and yup, the bronze gear was sheared.
So I changed the oil and filter. I strained the oil through a rag into a five gallon can and got NO pieces.
Then I cut the filter open and again found no pieces.
I then poured about a half a gallon of oil down the dizzy hole to try and wash anything out and again got nothing.
There's got to be some pieces in there somewhere. I didn't check the oil in the filter when I poured it out.

I got about 17,000 miles on the gear.
Hey Kevin, just a heads up

Here's a couple shots of what it looks like.

[jayb]

Ouch!  Don't feel bad Marc, I've done that to one myself, although that was quite a while back.  I wouldn't worry too much about the shavings in the engine, that gear material is soft and probably came off in very small pieces.  The filter should have caught it, and I doubt it did any significant damage to the oil pump.

As you now know, steel gears are your friend.  Thing is, though, there are a few people out there who have run those bronze gears forever; Wes Adams comes to mind.  I don't know how they do it.  I suppose it boils down to how much force is on the gear, and that is probably determined by the oil pump and the oil...

[turbohunter]

Aaaaah that's a good thought about the pump.
I've got a high volume pump on it.
Very interesting thanks.
I don't feel bad. But I'm learning a heck of a lot.

[My427stang]

You never really know if it went into the pump, but likely you will be OK.  I will say, if able to drop the pan, I'd probably do it, but odds are way in your favor that it'll be fine.

Be sure you put that new steel gear at the right depth, otherwise it will likely shear a pin. 

BTW, you did good on that gear, I rarely see them last that long.  I avoid them now, steel is the way to go when you need a special gear.