Author Topic: Tale of two cams......  (Read 5611 times)

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blykins

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Tale of two cams......
« on: May 27, 2020, 02:47:54 PM »
This belongs in the non-FE discussion because it happened on a Cleveland build.   Stock stroke (aftermarket crank though), factory 4V heads, solid roller camshafts, Strip Dominator intake, 12:1 compression, 1050 Dominator....

Tried two camshafts the same day, within about 2 hours of each other.....

Cam #1:

259/267 @ .050", 289/297 @ .020", .700"/.660" gross lift, 108 LSA, 104 ICL, 77° overlap

Cam #2:

253/271 @ .050", 285/307 @ .020", .687"/.640" gross lift, 110 LSA, 105 ICL, 76° overlap

How much horsepower do you think there was between the two cams with all other variables staying the same, and which one do you think made the most?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 03:16:56 PM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
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chilly460

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2020, 03:09:02 PM »
17hp

Joe-JDC

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2020, 03:30:14 PM »
From your question, the smaller must have been a surprise, and probably about 12-14 hp difference.  Joe-JDC
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mbrunson427

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2020, 03:43:25 PM »
If the smaller one works better or even same, I'd wonder about adding some more duration to the exhaust of cam #1 and seeing what it had then.

But I'm with Joe, based on the way the question was asked I'm assuming the small cam was a surprise.
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machoneman

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM »
Same hp, within 1%.  8)
Bob Maag

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2020, 05:03:44 PM »
16-20 Hp  curious if the heads are ported

garyv

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 05:43:58 PM »
#1 by 21 HP.

garyv

blykins

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 06:07:18 PM »
Heads were not ported.   I'll tell the story behind it all later.

A couple of notes that I wanted to make is that the overlap is within 1° of both cams and the peak hp rpm was within 200 rpm of each other.
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
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70tp

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 07:39:36 PM »
#1 by at least 40hp

Joe-JDC

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 08:40:17 PM »
Since unported Cleveland heads are notorious for poor exhaust flow bias compared to the intake flow, the cam with the largest exhaust duration will probably be better in this comparison test.  There is horsepower in the exhaust that most folks don't take into consideration when ordering a camshaft to fit a particular head flow.  The lift difference and duration will have a small affect, but depending on where the heads sign off, that might not be an issue with this comparison.  I still think the smaller camshaft will be better.  Joe-JDC
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blykins

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 05:40:24 AM »
This actually happened about 3 years ago, but I was thinking of it because I was reconsidering how overlap affects a camshaft. 

A custom cam grinder contacted me several years ago to see if I would be interested in getting cams from him.  He said he would float me one if I wanted to try it and his cam would make 30 hp over whatever camshaft I had chosen.  This particular Cleveland was my own engine and I had some extra time, so I had him grind a camshaft for it and gave him all the specs for the engine, including flow numbers, port volume, and even the specs for my own custom cam that I had ground for it. 

Camshaft #1 was my cam.  Camshaft #2 was his cam. 

What's interesting is that the overlap was only 1° different from cam to cam.  However, there was 28 peak hp difference between them and 10 average hp across the entire pull.   My camshaft made 615 hp @ 8000 rpm and his cam made 587 @ 7800.   The differences between the cams really aren't drastic.  The lift is not too different, intake lobe duration is within 6°, LSA is within 2°, but his cam had a huge duration split on it. 

On big intake port engines, overlap helps, and I generally have a very specific recipe I use for Tunnel Port heads and Clevelands.  But what I was considering was it's obviously not the overlap number itself that plays the role, it's the culmination of the overlap, lobe separation, etc.  This helps me in designing other camshafts, such as camshafts for street engines with vacuum requirements, because I can narrow down the amount of overlap to help vacuum, but still play with the other specifications to make horsepower. 

FWIW, the 4V heads flowed 312 cfm @ .700" with nothing but a specific valve job and some new Ferrea valves.  No port work. 

So for the portion that applies to FE's....

I'm getting ready to finish up another TFS headed FE and I was able to build this engine very similar to the 447 that I have in the dyno section.  Same cylinder heads, same intake manifold, same rotating assembly, same compression ratio, same everything.....what I am gonna change is the amount of duration split while holding the LSA the same.  From what I've seen in the past, specific heads need a good bit of intake/exhaust duration split but a good A/B test is always worthwhile. 

« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 05:56:25 AM by blykins »
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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Falcon67

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 09:20:20 AM »
Even David Vizar said that Clevelands like 108 LSA.  If I was choosing without reading you last post and just looking at the specs in a catalog, I would have picked the 108 over the 110. 

Barry_R

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 09:28:45 AM »
Only thing that stood out to me was the huge intake/exhaust duration difference.
Looks like one of those Thumper cams...there are limits to that kind of port crutch.
Did you look at the intake after running the second cam?
Would not surprise me to see a bunch of soot in there from reversion.

blykins

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 09:38:56 AM »
Well to be honest, I ran the #2 cam first because I was confident that the #1 cam would make more power....LOL

I've never seen a scenario where an 18° split was necessary. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
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Joe-JDC

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Re: Tale of two cams......
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 10:36:40 AM »
Guess I need to study my poker face some more.  Got that totally wrong.  Interesting.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500