1969 Fairlane brake upgrade

[69Cobra428]

Looking to improve the brakes on my 1969 Fairlane. While they work, they aren’t as crisp as I would like. Especially not that my kids want to drive my car

[gregaba]

If you have power steering I change all of mine to Hydra Boost systems. Best power brake up grade I have ever done.
If you don't have power then a Wilwood or other disc upgrade kit works great.
Try not to order the cheap Chinese parts.
Greg

[69Cobra428]

Not sure why the rest of my post didn’t show.

The car does have power steering.

It has a power steering booster with original front disc setup and a rear disc replacement setup. It does work but it’s not as crisp and solid as I would like.

[GerryP]

Elaborate on that "...not as crisp and solid as I would like." statement.  What exactly is it not doing?  Don't use vague terms like "crisp" since that means different things to different people.  Describe how the brakes and the car behave at different application pressures and speeds.  It's possible for crappy brakes to be a problem with the tires, or the suspension.

[69Cobra428]

The brake pedal is somewhat soft. It helps if I pump the pedal but it still takes firm pressure. The brakes were bled by a reputable shop after I installed the rear discs a year ago and there are no leaks.

Tires are brand new and all brake pads, rotors, etc have less than 1,000 miles on them.

When I say crisp, I just want a firm pedal and confidence that my kids can drive the car safely. I don’t want or expect them to have to pump the brakes or risk rear ending someone.

[fastf67]

I'm interested in hearing the brake pad material. Not trying to run ceramics are you, there great for less heat in the pad and keeping wheels clean but do not offer the most friction or stopping power.https://www.autoanything.com/resources/what-are-the-best-brake-pads-ceramic-or-semi-metallic/

[GerryP]

If you have to pump the brakes to get a firm pedal, you might want to recalibrate what a "reputable" shop is.   They might be honorable and pretty swell folk, but not have the right technical skills for thorough brake work.

Is this a problem where the pedal goes too far to the floor but is firm when you meet resistance, or is it that the pedal is soft as you meet resistance?

If, after a brake bleed, is the pedal firm and are the brakes functioning properly?  If so, then how long driving does it take for the pedal to go soft again and brake performance to decline?  If they start firm and gradually get mushy, then the problem is most likely in the rotors pulsing the caliper pistons and inducing air.  It could also be that you don't have the residual pressure valves to keep a tiny pressure on the pistons to keep them from retracting too far into the caliper.

If the pedal just never gets firm in the bleeding process, then you should probably do a bench bleed on the master cylinder.  Getting a good bleed on the master can sometimes be difficult, so you have to take nothing for granted.  Get a small bleeding kit for the master.  You can do either a flush bleed or a block bleed.  You might have to tilt the master around to dislodge trapped air. If that doesn't firm up the pedal, I would also recommend a brake pressure gauge.  There are a variety of them out there, but I believe Speedway has them for around $40.

[69Cobra428]

I'm interested in hearing the brake pad material. Not trying to run ceramics are you, there great for less heat in the pad and keeping wheels clean but do not offer the most friction or stopping power.https://www.autoanything.com/resources/what-are-the-best-brake-pads-ceramic-or-semi-metallic/

Should be semi metallic on both front and rear.

[69Cobra428]

If you have to pump the brakes to get a firm pedal, you might want to recalibrate what a "reputable" shop is.   They might be honorable and pretty swell folk, but not have the right technical skills for thorough brake work.

Is this a problem where the pedal goes too far to the floor but is firm when you meet resistance, or is it that the pedal is soft as you meet resistance?

If, after a brake bleed, is the pedal firm and are the brakes functioning properly?  If so, then how long driving does it take for the pedal to go soft again and brake performance to decline?  If they start firm and gradually get mushy, then the problem is most likely in the rotors pulsing the caliper pistons and inducing air.  It could also be that you don't have the residual pressure valves to keep a tiny pressure on the pistons to keep them from retracting too far into the caliper.

If the pedal just never gets firm in the bleeding process, then you should probably do a bench bleed on the master cylinder.  Getting a good bleed on the master can sometimes be difficult, so you have to take nothing for granted.  Get a small bleeding kit for the master.  You can do either a flush bleed or a block bleed.  You might have to tilt the master around to dislodge trapped air. If that doesn't firm up the pedal, I would also recommend a brake pressure gauge.  There are a variety of them out there, but I believe Speedway has them for around $40.

It’s soft until it hits resistance and then is firm. It does help to pump it a little.

[69Cobra428]

If, after a brake bleed, is the pedal firm and are the brakes functioning properly?  If so, then how long driving does it take for the pedal to go soft again and brake performance to decline?  If they start firm and gradually get mushy, then the problem is most likely in the rotors pulsing the caliper pistons and inducing air.  It could also be that you don't have the residual pressure valves to keep a tiny pressure on the pistons to keep them from retracting too far into the caliper.

If the pedal just never gets firm in the bleeding process, then you should probably do a bench bleed on the master cylinder.  Getting a good bleed on the master can sometimes be difficult, so you have to take nothing for granted.  Get a small bleeding kit for the master.  You can do either a flush bleed or a block bleed.  You might have to tilt the master around to dislodge trapped air. If that doesn't firm up the pedal, I would also recommend a brake pressure gauge.  There are a variety of them out there, but I believe Speedway has them for around $40.

I know the car does not have any residual valves on it.

I will look into bleeding the master again. I also have a mechanic friend I can have look at bleeding it for me.

[GerryP]

If there is air in the brake system, the pedal will be spongy (soft) as soon as it hits resistance.  This is the air in the system being compressed.  You don't seem to have air in the system since you say the pedal is "soft" until it meets resistance and once it does the pedal is firm. 

I don't know what it is you're describing.  Is your problem the pedal travels too far before you get brake action and that pumping it once or twice raises the height of where the brake action occurs?

If it's doing that, you don't have enough fluid capacity for your brake system.  This means you need a larger diameter master cylinder or a lower brake pedal ratio.

If it's something else, you're going to have to go all out and elaborate on all the details of the issue.

[69Cobra428]

Most of my original post didn’t show up for some reason.

When applying the brakes, the pedal goes almost to the floor before it gets firm. Pumping it helps move that position up a little but it still takes effort for the car to stop.

Someone on another forum mentioned I need a disc/disc master cylinder to help with the issue. Does that seem reasonable along with a larger diameter master?

[GerryP]

If you're using a drum (or a disc/drum) master cylinder on a disc/disc system you don't enough fluid volume.  Drum brake wheel cylinders take a tiny amount of fluid compared to a disc caliper.  Use a disc/disc master and see if that fixes your issue.  If it doesn't then you need a larger diameter master.  It really depends upon what calipers you are using and what the piston area is to know precisely how much fluid volume you need for a functioning system.

[69Cobra428]

I have original disc brakes on the front and swapped the rear drum to disc brakes.

Do you know a good option for a disc/disc master swap? Is there an OE style that will fit? Or should I look into aftermarket like Wilwood?

[Falcon67]

As I kinda indicated on FB, swapping in rear disk was kind of a waste of $, but they are there so there.  Pumping the pedal says air, brakes bled or not.  Also, beware the high firm pedal - that could signal too large a bore master cylinder and low line pressure.  If the swapped rears are multi-piston calipers, you might get away with a stock disk/drum because the volume to operate something like a 4 piston caliper is lower than the older big single piston units.  If you change masters, for a manual system you will need to keep the bore under 1".  The pedal travel will be more with a smaller bore master, but the line pressure will be higher.  My dragster for example uses 4 piston calipers on the rear with a single 7/8 bore master.  A good bit of pedal travel but stops well from 125+ MPH. 

Pads - on the street/strip cars I use organic pads on the fronts (single piston calipers), not semi-metallic.  They bite better and don't glaze the rotor when stopping repeatedly from big MPH.  Rears are 10x2" drum.  I never saw a need to put disks on the back. 

[69Cobra428]

I’ve owned this car for 26 years and have never been very happy with the brakes. Replaced the pads, rotors, and rear shoes shortly after buying it. Had the brake booster rebuilt, added a vacuum canister etc. Sure, the brakes worked but I was trying to improve them. Especially considering that the engine is close to 500hp, I wanted the car to be more driver friendly. Something that my wife and kids can drive. Short of a complete brake system swap I figured the next step was rear disc brakes.

That said, I’m thinking of a disc/disc master with a 1” bore. It looks like Speedway has them for around $60.   Would it be wise to also add a residual pressure valve for the rear?

[FElony]

With that much power, you should be saving for your family's cemetery plots. Never never never hand over the keys to people not used to old, overpowered vehicles. They will not survive. History has shown this over and over.

[gdaddy01]

very good advice , not used to this coming from you

[FElony]

very good advice , not used to this coming from you

Oh come on, you know I have feelings for my brother man. OK, that's a lie. So sue me.

The majority of collision avoidance revolves around how NOT to use the brakes. Throttle. Steering. The acquired experience telling you what the pitch and yaw your ride is going exhibit accordingly. Relying on brakes is just going to accordion your car when it should be elsewhere at the moment of impact. People getting giggles go from conservative to full throttle in a flash, and then freeze. You all know this to be true.

[gdaddy01]

I agree with you , just picking at  you a little .

[FElony]

I agree with you , just picking at  you a little .

Learn to unload on me so the banter proliferates and entertains. Get it? If you saw my roots on the Net, you would know I don't injure easily.

[69Cobra428]

With that much power, you should be saving for your family's cemetery plots. Never never never hand over the keys to people not used to old, overpowered vehicles. They will not survive. History has shown this over and over.

Oh, don’t worry, I’m not just going to hand them the keys and wave bye to them

[69Cobra428]

very good advice , not used to this coming from you

Oh come on, you know I have feelings for my brother man. OK, that's a lie. So sue me.

The majority of collision avoidance revolves around how NOT to use the brakes. Throttle. Steering. The acquired experience telling you what the pitch and yaw your ride is going exhibit accordingly. Relying on brakes is just going to accordion your car when it should be elsewhere at the moment of impact. People getting giggles go from conservative to full throttle in a flash, and then freeze. You all know this to be true.

Yes, I know that my Fairlane handles like crap but fixing the brakes is something that will help in the grand schemes of things.

My wife grew up driving a bunch of muscle cars that her dad had. She drove a ‘67 Corvette to work every day one summer and her dad had a ‘67 Chevelle when we met.

I plan on easing my kids into the Fairlane by driving around parking lots and working their way up to side streets. Pretty similar to when they went from the Mercury Milan to my Yukon XL.

[machoneman]

That said, I’m thinking of a disc/disc master with a 1” bore. It looks like Speedway has them for around $60.   Would it be wise to also add a residual pressure valve for the rear?
[/quote]


What is the current master bore size?


Disc/disc is a great idea yet pricey. One should not however add residual pressure valves to a disc system. If the current master doesn't have a 7/8ths bore, it should. You'd also want to dump the OEM Ford distribution block (it carries the proportioning valve; remove it and just leave the outer casing to handle the brake lines) and instead add an adjustable proportioning valve if you go disc in the rear.

[69Cobra428]

That said, I’m thinking of a disc/disc master with a 1” bore. It looks like Speedway has them for around $60.   Would it be wise to also add a residual pressure valve for the rear?

What is the current master bore size?


Disc/disc is a great idea yet pricey. One should not however add residual pressure valves to a disc system. If the current master doesn't have a 7/8ths bore, it should. You'd also want to dump the OEM Ford distribution block (it carries the proportioning valve; remove it and just leave the outer casing to handle the brake lines) and instead add an adjustable proportioning valve if you go disc in the rear.
[/quote]


I’m not sure the size of the current master. It’s either original or a stock replacement. I will have to take it off to measure it but I assumed it was 1-1/8”. The research I’ve seen was to go 1/8” smaller when switching it out.

As far as the distribution block goes, it is the original and I did add a proportioning valve about 10 years ago in anticipation of swapping in the rear discs. I assume I would just need to remove the guts of the distribution block?

[Jim Comet]

I have front disc rear drums on my 66 Comet. I just switched from my Ranger master (15/16" brore) to this master from a 97 Stratus . I has a 7/8 bore and is very compact. After bleeding the brakes, they do feel firmer firmer than with the Ranger master. Unfortunately that is stationary as I have not had a chance to drive it yet being in Minnesota. This master gives me about a 1/4" more valve cover clearance also. The first picture is of the Ranger master and the second is with the Stratus master. Jim

[GerryP]

...

Disc/disc is a great idea yet pricey. One should not however add residual pressure valves to a disc system. .

Just so there is no conflict of advice, I wrote about the residual pressure valves.  Machoneman is correct.  Disc systems don't use residual valves except where the master cylinder is below horizontal from the calipers.

[machoneman]

As far as the distribution block goes, it is the original and I did add a proportioning valve about 10 years ago in anticipation of swapping in the rear discs. I assume I would just need to remove the guts of the distribution block?
[/quote]

Correct. Remove the guts of the block and rely solely on the adjustable proportioning valve (controlling ONLY the rears) to add/reduce rear brake line pressure. In not too many stops, one can dial in the correct prop valve setting where the front brakes  lock up just before the backs lock up.   

[69Cobra428]

Thanks for the reply, Bob.

In looking for a master cylinder, is just the bore size critical or should I look for one with both front and rear reservoirs with the same size?
From what I’ve seen, most of the OEM style masters with a 7/8” bore have different size reservoirs while the  aftermarket ones have similar size reservoirs.

Also, my car does have a power booster if that makes a difference. I’ll probably check the adjustment on the push rod again tomorrow and take the car out for a drive.

[machoneman]

Thanks for the reply, Bob.

In looking for a master cylinder, is just the bore size critical or should I look for one with both front and rear reservoirs with the same size?
From what I’ve seen, most of the OEM style masters with a 7/8” bore have different size reservoirs while the  aftermarket ones have similar size reservoirs.

Also, my car does have a power booster if that makes a difference. I’ll probably check the adjustment on the push rod again tomorrow and take the car out for a drive.

It's the bore size that counts. The size of the reservoirs makes no difference.

I'm going to go back to your 1st post and say that the OEM Ford front discs aren't really all that hot for a 500hp ride. Heck, no muscle cars of the era (and I drove most all of them) had brakes worth a darn except for a few (4 wheel disc Vettes, Boss 302's, Z-28's). Point is you may still need to upgrade the fronts to bigger and better rotors/calipers even with rear discs. Try your changes now and then decide on rear discs....and then maybe better fronts. I did on my '70 Mach 1 and although it was all quite pricey, the car now stops like an SCCA racer.   

[69Cobra428]

It's the bore size that counts. The size of the reservoirs makes no difference.

I'm going to go back to your 1st post and say that the OEM Ford front discs aren't really all that hot for a 500hp ride. Heck, no muscle cars of the era (and I drove most all of them) had brakes worth a darn except for a few (4 wheel disc Vettes, Boss 302's, Z-28's). Point is you may still need to upgrade the fronts to bigger and better rotors/calipers even with rear discs. Try your changes now and then decide on rear discs....and then maybe better fronts. I did on my '70 Mach 1 and although it was all quite pricey, the car now stops like an SCCA racer.

Well I’ve already got the rear discs on there

[machoneman]

It's the bore size that counts. The size of the reservoirs makes no difference.

I'm going to go back to your 1st post and say that the OEM Ford front discs aren't really all that hot for a 500hp ride. Heck, no muscle cars of the era (and I drove most all of them) had brakes worth a darn except for a few (4 wheel disc Vettes, Boss 302's, Z-28's). Point is you may still need to upgrade the fronts to bigger and better rotors/calipers even with rear discs. Try your changes now and then decide on rear discs....and then maybe better fronts. I did on my '70 Mach 1 and although it was all quite pricey, the car now stops like an SCCA racer.

Well I’ve already got the rear discs on there

Missed that. Great. One other thing, if you stick with the OEM front discs, note that most off-the-shelf pads are hard (like in way too hard) for long life. You many wanted to investigate softer pads for better street braking. Porterfield, Performance Friction, Hawk and other aftermarket brake pad makers offer a wide range of soft to hard pads.   

https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

https://pfcbrakes.com/products/brake-pads

[69Cobra428]

It's the bore size that counts. The size of the reservoirs makes no difference.

I'm going to go back to your 1st post and say that the OEM Ford front discs aren't really all that hot for a 500hp ride. Heck, no muscle cars of the era (and I drove most all of them) had brakes worth a darn except for a few (4 wheel disc Vettes, Boss 302's, Z-28's). Point is you may still need to upgrade the fronts to bigger and better rotors/calipers even with rear discs. Try your changes now and then decide on rear discs....and then maybe better fronts. I did on my '70 Mach 1 and although it was all quite pricey, the car now stops like an SCCA racer.

Well I’ve already got the rear discs on there

Missed that. Great. One other thing, if you stick with the OEM front discs, note that most off-the-shelf pads are hard (like in way too hard) for long life. You many wanted to investigate softer pads for better street braking. Porterfield, Performance Friction, Hawk and other aftermarket brake pad makers offer a wide range of soft to hard pads.   

https://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

https://pfcbrakes.com/products/brake-pads

Thanks for that info. I will look into those.

I’m not sure why the rest of my post didn’t show but I mentioned that I will make some adjustments to the push rod and see how it works. I’m hoping it will work for the summer and then I will look into a new master and maybe some bigger front discs as next winters project

[machoneman]

Be careful with the pushrod adjustment as if it's set too tight (long) it will put pressure on the master's piston and cause brake drag.

[SReist]

Rear disc brake conversions are sometimes very tough to bleed. Especially the ones with the parking brake incorporated into the caliper. The bleeder screw my not be positioned at the
high point. You may have to remove the caliper and tilt it. These kits are typically a mismatch of factory parts. Hope this helps, Steve

[TomP]

Just a sec… you have a disc drum master but using disc all around? There is a residual valve in the master for those rear drums.  Use a four wheel disc master , like Explorers and 94 and newer Mustangs have.

I am just not a power brake guy and the Hydroboost even less but those are not as critical for bore size as manual brakes are.  Too big a bore with manual and you will need both feet to push the pedal.

I am curious what I am seeing in JimComet's picture. It looks like the stock motor mount perch area but a rear steer rack and tube upper control arms with a coilover. Does that still use the original lower arms and spindles?

That Stratus master is compact!

[Falcon67]

It's the bore size that counts. The size of the reservoirs makes no difference.

I'm going to go back to your 1st post and say that the OEM Ford front discs aren't really all that hot for a 500hp ride. Heck, no muscle cars of the era (and I drove most all of them) had brakes worth a darn except for a few (4 wheel disc Vettes, Boss 302's, Z-28's). Point is you may still need to upgrade the fronts to bigger and better rotors/calipers even with rear discs. Try your changes now and then decide on rear discs....and then maybe better fronts. I did on my '70 Mach 1 and although it was all quite pricey, the car now stops like an SCCA racer.

If you are using the 70s single piston calipers, the reservoir makes a difference.  For sure a drum/drum master is short on volume in the rear chamber to safely (in my mind) operate the big piston front units.  I run single piston front (75 Comet), drum rear, disk/drum (76 Maverick) manual master with a 15/16 bore and organic front pads.  I have not changed or wore out a set of pads or shoes since a freshened them in 2004.  No problem stopping a 3250 lb race car from 90+ MPH on the track, stops fine on the street.  Holds fine in the burnout box.  To add to that, I bracket race which means I'm on the brakes either riding or punching at 90~95 MPH in the lights when running the finish line.  I might look into upgraded disks on the corners if the car got over, say, 100~110 MPH in the 1/8 mile.  I'd have no issue running 6.80s,90s or so in the 1/8 on the stock system.  Passes - I have no idea in the last 16 years, but between 2003 and 2005 when I was saving ET slips, I tossed out 2200 or so slips.

Also note that most of the braking - 70% or so - is handled by the fronts, so the rear isn't all that busy most times. Running SCCA or some such track racing is different.  On the street, meh.  If you like 'em, run 'em.

Multi-piston calipers likely don't need much master volume.  The dragster weighs 1650 lbs with driver and runs 126 in the 1/8.  The braking system is two 4 piston calipers and a bitty 7/8" bore master cylinder.  There's more volume in a coke can.
 

[machoneman]

Rear disc brake conversions are sometimes very tough to bleed. Especially the ones with the parking brake incorporated into the caliper. The bleeder screw my not be positioned at the
high point. You may have to remove the caliper and tilt it. These kits are typically a mismatch of factory parts. Hope this helps, Steve

Trick I learned long ago from a Formula III racer. Pop off the caliper, pads included, and stuff a cut-down 2X4 or other other chunk of wood about the thickness of the rotor between the pads. Hold up or wire up the caliper with the bleeder facing up. Have your helper push the brake pedal until all air is cleared. Tighten the bleeder, yank the wood and re-install the caliper. Move onto the next wheel and repeat.

Works every time!