Author Topic: Cam ICL suggestions  (Read 3617 times)

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66FAIRLANE

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Cam ICL suggestions
« on: April 02, 2020, 05:30:55 AM »
Have put this old cam back in my 390. Just about to degree it. Any suggestions on ICL or stick to the card?
It is a 390+.040 with TRW 2291F's, tidied up Edelbrock heads, Tri-y headers, Performer RPM & Holley Sniper EFI.


blykins

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2020, 07:57:10 AM »
What's your calculated compression ratio?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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gt350hr

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2020, 11:41:19 AM »
   Looks like 114 LSA + 5 out of the box and what many EFI cams are made like.

My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2020, 01:29:31 PM »
What an odd cam card, advertised numbers are shown on one centerline, .050 on another.

To gain a little vacuum and torque, I'd likely advance it to a 104-105 centerline using your parts.  L2291 should be around 9.5 - 9.75 depending on chamber size, deck and gasket.  I'd likely use .050 open/close and put it at 9.5/37.5 or if it came in close to 8.5/38.5, I'd call it good.  Leaving it where it says to works well too, I ran one of those in a 4x4 truck for years, but given your combo you may want a little more vacuum

What's weird is, the top numbers show it 1 degree retarded, bottom 5 advanced, I wonder if those old Fireballs were assymetric or just a goofy cam card.  Also, remember that that cam shows 294@.010, it's a little milder than most we see now rated at .020 advertised



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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

gt350hr

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 05:00:30 PM »
  Ross,
       The Fireball cams were "bulk buy" cams from Camshaft Machine in MI. When I was @ Sig Erson's in the late '70s we had a cam called the High Flow which was the same master but we got it on a 108 , straight up. Back then at 100 pcs , they were UNDER $20.00 in a plain white box. We stamped the end with the logo and part number , put a sleeve over their white box and we charged Waaay more . The Viking 100 was the loss leader @39.95
    Randy

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2020, 05:03:22 PM »
Thanks for the input guys. I haven't calculated compression yet as I am still to assemble my heads & partly because it is what it is. At the moment I can say that the pistons have -10cc, they sit at zero to the deck, I will be using the gaskets that come in the Felpro full set (think they squish to about 040) & the heads have been shaved a bit (probably around .030) over the years. I will measure a chamber when I slip the valves back in. The cam is not by choice but necessity, the low Aussie dollar over the past couple of years & now my income has been cut in half by Chinavirus. My old cam is too rowdy for me now & I had this one lying around. It was in the car when I bought it 25 years ago & from memory it went pretty good in a worn out old engine with really crappy exhaust. So I am actually interested to see how it goes in a fresh build with better inlet & exhaust. I just hope it lives. No real science to inspecting it. Just that it was ok when it came out & its not rusty, so cleaned it off & in it goes with new lifters.

Didn't notice that on the card, but yeh that's a bit weird. So Ross are you saying to put it in another 4-5 degrees advanced? Vacuum is not really an issue. I have been living with 7" for 23 years.

My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2020, 05:28:11 PM »
Thanks for the input guys. I haven't calculated compression yet as I am still to assemble my heads & partly because it is what it is. At the moment I can say that the pistons have -10cc, they sit at zero to the deck, I will be using the gaskets that come in the Felpro full set (think they squish to about 040) & the heads have been shaved a bit (probably around .030) over the years. I will measure a chamber when I slip the valves back in. The cam is not by choice but necessity, the low Aussie dollar over the past couple of years & now my income has been cut in half by Chinavirus. My old cam is too rowdy for me now & I had this one lying around. It was in the car when I bought it 25 years ago & from memory it went pretty good in a worn out old engine with really crappy exhaust. So I am actually interested to see how it goes in a fresh build with better inlet & exhaust. I just hope it lives. No real science to inspecting it. Just that it was ok when it came out & its not rusty, so cleaned it off & in it goes with new lifters.

Didn't notice that on the card, but yeh that's a bit weird. So Ross are you saying to put it in another 4-5 degrees advanced? Vacuum is not really an issue. I have been living with 7" for 23 years.

If you look at that cam like a 282 @ .020 duration comp on 114, you should have decent vacuum.  However, your low end and cruise may be happier by going another 4 forward. I wouldn't say you HAVE to, but if you did, it'd feel good and you could always lash a little tighter if you decided you want more
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Heo

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2020, 09:41:40 AM »
Thats the cam i had in my engine when i tore it down
worked fine in the galaxie with highway gears, vaccum
for powerbrakes. Degreed for more bottom end according
to the previous owner




The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2020, 06:36:49 PM »
One more question on this. Would bringing it forward a few degrees affect the top end rpm?

My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2020, 07:45:01 PM »
In theory, yes, advancing the cam can shift the peak down a bit, retarding can go up.  However, that's why I mentioned tight lashing, you could likely gain it back if you didn't like the peaks by closing that lash up.

In the end, that isn't a huge cam, despite the lazy lobes, essentially using a normal lobe measurement, I would call it a 282-ish/227 @ .050, 114 LSA on 109.  109 is a late intake valve IMO, especially on a 390, but if you compared that to a hydraulic CJ cam, those were smaller lobes but on a 114 ICL, so it's not like 109 is crazy.  If you are not confident in running it early, I'd just stick it in at zero, and if it comes in later than 109, advance it a bit, if it comes in on target, run it

That being said, I do think it'd run a little stronger low and mid advanced, but if you are used to 7 inches of vacuum, we may be negotiating something that won't matter at all.  That cam should have plenty of vacuum regardless
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 08:51:12 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2020, 11:22:33 PM »
Thanks Ross. I do appreciate the input. I know its a smallish cam and I do like my stuff to rev to at least 6000 so I just didnt want a few degrees of advance costing me a few hundred revs at the top. I have taken out a 3500 flash converter and will be running around 2500 so there is still a bit of slip down there.

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2020, 04:19:35 AM »
Well I clocked this in yesterday with some interesting results. Dot to dot it was at a 110 ICL so I advanced it 2 degrees for a 108 ICL. But here is the interesting stuff. I will preface this by saying I have a small degree wheel so half a degree of error is quite possible.
I measured the lobe lift at bang on .300" so that is .003 over the card.
The events @050 were, IO 6 deg BTDC, IC 44 deg ABDC for a total @050 duration of 230 against the cards 227.
The events @010 were, IO 38 deg BTDC, IC 88 deg ABDC for a total @010 duration of 306 against the cards (advertised) of 294.


blykins

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2020, 05:48:18 AM »
It's not out of the range of possibility for something like that to happen, but I would check your TDC again. 

The quickest way to degree a cam using the ICL method with a lift measurement is to do it this way:  Make sure you're on the heel of the lobe, zero your indicator.  Roll the engine over until you get peak lift, note that measurement, then zero your indicator again.  Back up .100", go forward .050", note the number on the wheel, keep going forward until your indicator hits zero (it should go directly to zero), then keep going forward until the indicator reverses direction and hits .050" again.  Note that measurement.   Add the numbers together, divide by 2, get your ICL.   Repeat the process on the exhaust lifter.  Then add your ICL and ECL together, divide by 2, and get the LSA.

The .050" method will show changes based on how you have the cam clocked. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
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www.customfordcams.com
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My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2020, 09:15:35 AM »
Sometimes the dial indicator and associated pieces won't follow perfectly, make sure eveything is in a straight line and the lifter is loose and only oiled lightly, can even use something like WD40 to keep things thin. Even lightly resting a finger on the dial indicator slide can help sometimes. My guess says that the spring pressure of the dial indicator didn't let the lifter follow perfectly

I use the ICL method like Brent, often checking at different offsets, .050, .100, etc if I don't like my numbers, but I always check open close like you did, just to make sure the cam was what I thought it was. 

If you end up at 108 that shoudl work out fine.  BTW, I looked again at your cam card, the .010 advertised corresponds perfectly with the lash given X 1.76.  That cam does have more advertised than I initially thought at that lash. In other words, the lash is basically .010 X rocker ratio, which means that barring any mechanical loss, the advertised is pretty accurate for what the valve will see.  Doesn't change the recommendation a lot, but I certainly wouldn't be afraid of it ending up more advanced rather than retarded
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

gt350hr

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2020, 03:59:57 PM »
  No surprise on being off a bit. "On occasion" numbers are changed "on purpose" to make them different from another manufacturer. It used to happen more than it does now.

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2020, 06:11:44 PM »
Thanks all. I did check TDC several times during this process with the positive stop method just to make sure I hadn't bumped the pointer. It was spot on every time. Even pulling the stop off & on it stopped the piston at 34.5 degrees before & after every time. I rolled the engine many times doing this constantly checking the lifter was following the cam, it was. I got the ICL by stopping 010 before max lift & 010 after max lift & splitting the difference.

My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2020, 09:27:02 PM »
Sound s like you have your procedures down, I just may go a little bit further off max lift on each side, sorta lets things level out a bit more than .010.  Like I said, I usually do .050, but will check at .100 if I think I don't like what I saw

I lost track of where you think you are now though :)
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

66FAIRLANE

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2020, 12:34:38 AM »
 Where I am now is 108 ICL and timing cover on!    :D
Yeh I checked the max lift at 050 before and after but it was a bit screwy. Almost like the back of the lobe was different to the front. So I went 010 and it jived with the other events and card so ran with it. Still a lot of work to do before it gets slotted in but getting there.

My427stang

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Re: Cam ICL suggestions
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2020, 07:06:49 AM »
Well done!
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch