Author Topic: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...  (Read 8757 times)

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jayb

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You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« on: March 28, 2020, 02:05:12 PM »
Since the beginning of March I've finally been getting good cylinder head castings for the FE Power cylinder head project, and I just got the first set back from my local shop with the valve job done, so I've been working on getting my dyno mule ready to run.  I've been refining the design of my rocker arm system that is required for use with these heads, and thanks to some help from Bill Conley I've got that pretty much dialed in now.  The rocker system does require some special hardware though, in particular the nuts for the head studs on the intake side.  These nuts have a 1/2-20 thread on one side to screw onto the head studs, and a 3/8-16 thread on the other side.  The bar that goes across the head and supports the rocker shafts bolts into these nuts with some 3/8-16 bolts. 

I did this because I didn't want to rely only on bolts into the cylinder head itself to attach this bar, after seeing what happens to some other heads (specifically Blue Thunder High Risers), when a lot of valve spring pressure is used.  Some of you may have seen pictures of the top of the port being ripped right off the head in that case.  Attaching to the head studs is much better, so my system uses that approach.  As a result I need a nut like the one shown in the pictures below:





It's pretty simple.  It is just 13/16" round stock, 1.4" long with a 5/8" hex cut into the top of it, so you can tighten the nut.  The underside is threaded for 1/2-20, and the top is threaded for 3/8-16.  Nothing to it.

I went to ARP and asked how much it was going to cost for 20 prototypes, and a production run of 300.  Take a guess, folks, I'll post the answer tomorrow.  Bottom line is I may be making these myself... >:(
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2020, 02:45:24 PM »
$4,000 for the first 20 prototypes, then $90 each for the 300 run.
Bob Maag

WConley

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2020, 03:00:00 PM »
Bob's guess sounds spot-on to what I was thinking for the first 20, though I'd say the 300 "production" pieces would be about $125 each.

You may want to give these guys a call - Coupling Nut Supply.  They claim to make lots of styles of "Reducer Coupling Nuts" and they welcome custom jobs.

http://cnssales.com/?page_id=20

It's always the little things you weren't expecting...  >:(
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

57 lima bean

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2020, 03:07:30 PM »
          Fordytwo dollars a piece.Because 42 is the answer.

temarey

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2020, 06:59:12 PM »
Mc Master Carr has 1/2 - 20 grade 8 nuts 1.75 long and thread inserts 1/2 - 20 x 3/8 -16 . Nuts are $22.93 and inserts are 3.93
This might be too long of a package to work for you ,but is a rough idea of realistic cost

KMcCullah

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2020, 07:22:42 PM »
Would a change in material/method help with the cost? A chunk of hex material with a turned back end maybe? Versus what appears to be round material with a milled hex? Well that sounded just like bb.

I'm guessing 8k+ total for the first run. Formed threads vs cut threads, ARP is pretty much the shit. 
Kevin McCullah


jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2020, 08:39:31 PM »
The material is chrome moly steel, about a buck and quarter for a 1.625" length, which is what you'd need to make the nuts.  Hex stock is more expensive to start with, and it would still have to be cut down because a 13/16" hex would require a socket of the same size, and that won't fit in the counterbores for the head studs.

A lot of you guys are close on the numbers, I must just be cheap because the pricing I got pretty much blew me away.  I will probably end up making these myself, it's just not that hard to do...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

gdaddy01

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2020, 09:04:37 PM »
nine hundred dollars and some change .

FElony

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2020, 12:38:58 AM »
I'm thinking about 3000 cheezburgrz, give or take depending on which cheez. Am I right?

Dan859

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2020, 02:29:16 AM »
Quote
I'm thinking about 3000 cheezburgrz, give or take depending on which cheez. Am I right?
Where do you come up with this stuff???  LOL!  I'll gladly pay you Thursday for a cheezeburger today!

FElony

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2020, 11:55:29 AM »
Quote
I'm thinking about 3000 cheezburgrz, give or take depending on which cheez. Am I right?
Where do you come up with this stuff???  LOL!  I'll gladly pay you Thursday for a cheezeburger today!

Simple. The value of a cheezburgr can swing between a buck and ten bucks, depending on which retailer is chosen. Therefore, if Jay says 12 grand cost, I find a retailer that sells cheezburgrs for 4 bucks, and I automatically win his red '69 Cobra. If he says higher or lower, I adjust the value accordingly, down to the penny. I can't lose.

No freebies, Wimpy.   ;D

Dan859

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2020, 01:04:48 PM »
No wonder I flunked math.  I forgot to take the Cheezeburger Constant into account.  Life must be endlessly fascinating in FElony world  ;D.   You probably played Calvinball when you were a kid)). 

TomP

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 01:19:13 PM »
I will say the 300 production run will be ten cents each... $30 and the 20 prototypes will be ten dollars each... $200

Or are 1964 and Chinese prices not accurate?

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 02:14:00 PM »
$216.80 each for the samples, $25.12 each for a quantity of 300.

I think that is simply ridiculous.  I have to supply 10 of each of these with each pair of cylinder heads.  That will increase the cost of the heads by $250!  Unacceptable.  I will be finding a different alternative, even if it means making them myself.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

TomP

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2020, 02:50:05 PM »
Yeah that is quite a bunch. A 3/8" nut welded to the top of a 1/2" fine thread nut would even work if it sits on the threads above the nut holding the head down. Or is this to replace the head bolt/stud/nut?

FElony

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2020, 02:54:54 PM »
$216.80 each for the samples, $25.12 each for a quantity of 300.

I think that is simply ridiculous.  I have to supply 10 of each of these with each pair of cylinder heads.  That will increase the cost of the heads by $250!  Unacceptable.  I will be finding a different alternative, even if it means making them myself.

This totals 11,872 bucks for the 20 + 300. This comes out to 3.96 per cheezburgr. I said $4 each. Could I possibly be more bitchin'? Don't you guys get it by now? Get that Cobra ready to roll, Jay. No whining about "plans" or anything. I'll be there on Thursday. Be happy I don't ding you for shipping costs.

FElony

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2020, 03:01:33 PM »
No wonder I flunked math.  I forgot to take the Cheezeburger Constant into account.  Life must be endlessly fascinating in FElony world  ;D.   You probably played Calvinball when you were a kid)).

Calvin was created in 1985, according to the Net. I was old, toothless, and senile by then. I've never heard of Calvinball until now, but it does sound like a game I could excel at. And for heaven's sake, learn how to spell cheezburgr.

frnkeore

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2020, 03:19:11 PM »
I'm a retired aircraft machine shop owner. Your application doesn't require AQ specs so, I would suggest the following:

I assuming that they will have to HTed? You don't need 1 5/8 blanks, 1.5 is plenty. You will get 92 pieces to a 12 ft bar @ 1.50"

1. Use 3/4 Hex, 1144 steel, It's easy to machine and as strong and hard as 1045. You don't need 4140.

2. Change counter bore to 7/8" or turn the lower part to 13/16

3. Call the local job shops, in your area and get multiple quotes.

4. Call the heat treater's in your area and get a quote for that.
Frank

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2020, 04:31:43 PM »
Frank, thanks for the suggestions.  Heat treat is easy, there's a big heat treat place near my house that charges $33 for up to 20 pounds of small pieces.  But I was going to go with ETD-150, which is a modified 4140 and is 130Kpsi as is, so no heat treat is required.  I will look into your suggestions, though...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

preaction

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2020, 04:32:37 PM »
Depth of thread only needs to be 1.5 times the diameter after that no more strength is gained.

frnkeore

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2020, 05:50:36 PM »
A quick question: How are you going to oil the rocker shafts?
Frank

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2020, 07:21:49 PM »
Through the pushrods.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

babybolt

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2020, 09:58:31 PM »
The price reflects California taxes and overhead including fancy new CNC machines - rather than a big old fashioned screw machine spitting out a part every minute at pennies a piece.

WConley

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2020, 11:08:38 PM »
+1.  My guess assumed that ARP didn't want your business.  A run of only 320 small parts ties up a lot of design and setup time.  It's also opportunity cost for an expensive screw machine that could be spitting out many thousands of production parts a day.

I'm surprised the per-piece quote for the 300 was that low!
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Falcon67

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2020, 11:15:00 AM »
Dang, that's nearly 4 cases of toilet paper these days.

As above - having come from a background of manufacturing where we bought in smaller quantities and those lot sizes cost us dearly.  Not only in mechanical parts but PCB runs, PCB assembly processes, etc.  We did many things in-house because of the lot sizes.  You could look around for a smaller job shop that might be interested in work because orders may be thin right  now due to current conditions in the world. 

+1.  My guess assumed that ARP didn't want your business.  A run of only 320 small parts ties up a lot of design and setup time.  It's also opportunity cost for an expensive screw machine that could be spitting out many thousands of production parts a day.

I'm surprised the per-piece quote for the 300 was that low!

Hemi Joel

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2020, 11:28:45 AM »
Jay, can you bore the holes in the plates from 3/8 out to half inch? that way you could just use a longer stud, and a regular nut to hold the plate and the head down simultaneously. Or else you could use just a regular 1/2" coupler nut to hold the head down, and then a short stud or bolt through the plate and into the upper half of the coupler nut.

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2020, 12:55:59 PM »
I think getting longer than stock studs would be even more expensive than trying to get the nuts.  Also, room is real tight there, Joel, those are good suggestions but unfortunately not practical in this case.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

70tp

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2020, 01:03:04 PM »
Does the nut have to be smaller on top?   Maybe use a larger hex stock and leave the od alone or maybe turn the bottom or top part smaller if it gets in the way?   It’s easier to turn hex to round than to mill round to hex, at least for me. 

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2020, 09:27:40 PM »
Does the nut have to be smaller on top? 

Yes, to allow clearance between the socket and the counterbore that the nut goes into.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Hemi Joel

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2020, 01:25:05 PM »
Would you have to heat treat the nuts you make after machining?

hhiibel

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2020, 01:40:00 AM »
why cant the half inch stud be necked down to 3/8s at just the top and provision/seat for 1/2 nut in bottom of shaft mount?

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2020, 03:49:36 PM »
I just made these myself.  Took me about half a day to machine a fixture to hold 10 nuts, and then another day and a half to write the programs and do the machining.  Figure I've saved myself a few hundred bucks on these prototypes, and if I can't get the production pricing down to some reasonable level, I'd make these myself.  They are cut from ETD-150, which is a specially heat treated version of 4140 steel, as I understand it anyway.  They are 130,000 psi tensile strength, so no heat treating is necessary, although as mentioned previously heat treating is not that big of a deal, for me anyway.  The only thing I don't like about these things is that they aren't black, but I have found a local company who can do black oxide coating, so as long as they don't charge $10 per nut to do that ( >:( >:( >:(), I'll probably do that in production if I can't get these from somebody else at a reasonable price.

You may have noticed that I'm really wound up about this whole situation ::)  To me, I'm trying to bring a fairly significant product to market for the benefit of myself and other FE high performance enthusiasts, and things like these stupid high-dollar quotes from companies in the automotive aftermarket just get in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish.  I HATE that.  You would think that 10 special steel nuts would not be equivalent to 10% of the cost of a good pair of aluminum cylinder heads, but that's how it would come out if I went with ARP for these things.

OK, rant off.  Here is a picture of the nuts that I machined, and also a photo of a couple of them installed in one of my heads.



Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2020, 03:51:11 PM »
why cant the half inch stud be necked down to 3/8s at just the top and provision/seat for 1/2 nut in bottom of shaft mount?

Do you really think it would be less expensive to do a special set of head studs, rather than these nuts?  I don't.  Plus, a lot of people who are going to buy these heads already have head studs.  Using these nuts, you can use the aftermarket FE head studs as-is.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 04:34:08 PM by jayb »
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

57 lima bean

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2020, 04:01:36 PM »
                               Nicely done Jay.Time to wash your hands :)

WConley

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2020, 04:08:20 PM »
That'll work!  Way to show 'em.

- Bill
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

CV355

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2020, 05:43:02 PM »
You can get a black oxide kit for home use relatively inexpensively from Caswell.  One of my machinist buddies has a few 5gal buckets, some beakers and a heat plate for various home coating projects.

70tp

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2020, 07:04:52 PM »
Good job!!

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2020, 07:17:21 PM »
You can get a black oxide kit for home use relatively inexpensively from Caswell.  One of my machinist buddies has a few 5gal buckets, some beakers and a heat plate for various home coating projects.

Thanks for the info, I will check that out.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

ToddK

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2020, 09:48:57 PM »
I agree about the home black oxide kit, I have one also. It was fairly inexpensive and can treat a lot of parts. Took a little bit of experimentation to get the right finish, but the parts I have done have held up well.

It shouldn’t be an expensive operation to get it done commercially. The chemicals used are as environmentally unfriendly as those used for chrome plating.

CV355

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2020, 06:19:24 AM »
You can get a black oxide kit for home use relatively inexpensively from Caswell.  One of my machinist buddies has a few 5gal buckets, some beakers and a heat plate for various home coating projects.

Thanks for the info, I will check that out.

Cool!  Those parts turned out looking real nice, by the way. 

babybolt

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2020, 07:02:11 AM »
Would hex bar stock work instead of machining a hex onto a round bar?  I think they have threaded hex bar stock.

shady

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2020, 08:33:42 AM »

You may have noticed that I'm really wound up about this whole situation ::)  To me, I'm trying to bring a fairly significant product to market for the benefit of myself and other FE high performance enthusiasts, and things like these stupid high-dollar quotes from companies in the automotive aftermarket just get in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish.  I HATE that.  You would think that 10 special steel nuts would not be equivalent to 10% of the cost of a good pair of aluminum cylinder heads, but that's how it would come out if I went with ARP for these things

APR gave you what I call the F you price. They are fat and happy and don't want to deal with one time pain in their ass projects, so they give you a price to discourage you but hey, they will do it for a ridiculous amount of money. I do the same. say a kid comes in my shop and wants a stupid sticker for the back window of his ricer. I tell him $50 bucks, he says he can get it on the internet for $5 bucks.
Goodby. I have to write a program, put material in the machine, run the program, take the material out, weed it, transfer it and trim it. For 5 bucks? Ain't gonna happen. $50? Yep. There is a down side to it however. I had a guy that I never saw before, come in for some stickers for the side of his pick-up bed. At the time I was a little slow and he never asked a price, so I did them. He was happy, I had $50 for some cheezburgrs and beer. Long story short, this guy was a plant manager for an east coast frozen food distributor. Because of doing that $50 job I got thousands and thousands of dollars worth of work.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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Falcon67

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2020, 09:31:44 AM »
>It shouldn’t be an expensive operation to get it done commercially. The chemicals used are as environmentally unfriendly as those used for chrome plating.

Depends - if they are in a decent size city or one with the EPAs eyes on it (non-attainment area) you'll likely get hit with environmental charges and it'll likely cost "more" because of compliance efforts.  The instrument company I used to work for used a Polane spatter paint on the cases.  Looked nice, held up well.  When we moved the company to Houston, environmental regs limited VOC emissions so much that once the few companies that even shot commercial paint hit their limits, they hung up the guns and production would stop.  We had to switch to using powder coating to keep our production line going.  And you could forget anodizing.  Most of that went to podunk Arkansas where some guys still brewed that nasty stuff in barrels. 

Jay, since you have the capital equipment LOL, I'd bet that even with a full cost accounting type analysis your in-house production cost is still way cheaper than farming it out.  It's just more work for you.  If this was 1990 I could recommend several places that could likely do it.  I'm sure by now all those guys are long retired.  There was a guy that had a shop in northern Arkansas, across the road from one of Bo Pilgrim's chicken farms.  Looked like just another old tin barn from the outside.  No signs, nothing but a dirt driveway.  One man operation, good looking shop inside with well cared for machines.  Made us some most excellent precision parts and was really affordable.  Don't think you can find much of that anymore. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:33:32 AM by Falcon67 »

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2020, 10:35:34 AM »
I just ordered one of the do-it-yourself black oxide kits from Caswell.  I'll report back with the results...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2020, 10:39:23 AM »
Would hex bar stock work instead of machining a hex onto a round bar?  I think they have threaded hex bar stock.
Believe me Doug, I've thought about all this stuff.  13/16" or 7/8" hex bar stock would work, but I would still have to machine a smaller hex on the top to fit the socket into the counterbore of the heads, plus have two different thread sizes inside.  Can't make the counterbore in the head bigger without it coming to close to the edge of the intake ports.  I could potentially buy 5/8" hex stock, but it would still have to have two different thread sizes, and I'd be a little nervous about the wall thickness of the nut in the 1/2-20 threaded area.  The design I have is the best solution.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

hhiibel

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2020, 11:19:53 AM »
i’m still thinking get a total length 1/2” stud and re-thread the end. not as deep a cut in the head. a single stud seems sounder than splicing two. don't know socket depth for either scenario. too bad not metric. belmetric lists lots of step down studs.

TimeWarpF100

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2020, 02:14:43 PM »
I just made these myself.  Took me about half a day to machine a fixture to hold 10 nuts, and then another day and a half to write the programs and do the machining.  Figure I've saved myself a few hundred bucks on these prototypes, and if I can't get the production pricing down to some reasonable level, I'd make these myself.  They are cut from ETD-150, which is a specially heat treated version of 4140 steel, as I understand it anyway.  They are 130,000 psi tensile strength, so no heat treating is necessary, although as mentioned previously heat treating is not that big of a deal, for me anyway.  The only thing I don't like about these things is that they aren't black, but I have found a local company who can do black oxide coating, so as long as they don't charge $10 per nut to do that ( >:( >:( >:(), I'll probably do that in production if I can't get these from somebody else at a reasonable price.

You may have noticed that I'm really wound up about this whole situation ::)  To me, I'm trying to bring a fairly significant product to market for the benefit of myself and other FE high performance enthusiasts, and things like these stupid high-dollar quotes from companies in the automotive aftermarket just get in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish.  I HATE that.  You would think that 10 special steel nuts would not be equivalent to 10% of the cost of a good pair of aluminum cylinder heads, but that's how it would come out if I went with ARP for these things.

OK, rant off.  Here is a picture of the nuts that I machined, and also a photo of a couple of them installed in one of my heads.





Jay, I have a good friend who is local with huge machine shop probably would not hurt to give him a call to see what he says. I will send you PM with his contact info. R

mbrunson427

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2020, 05:07:14 PM »
I'd send them off to Drew P when you're ready to do a production batch. He did some random bolts for me as a favor a while back. I'm sure he'd be more than willing to do you a favor Jay, even though it's not Holley carburetor parts.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2020, 06:36:07 PM »
Mike, I have two plating barrels now.
One can do about 5-10lbs of bolts per hour, the other can do 35-50lbs per hour.


Stangman

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2020, 07:59:05 PM »
Jay just curious if you called maybe a company that makes wheel locks or lug nuts. The nut that you made (which looks great by the way) looks like a cross between a wheel lock and lug nut.  If you needed a bunch maybe they could give you a deal, and who knows maybe they have some kind of blackish or dark coating. You may have already gone down this road already but was just thinking out loud looking at your nuts. :o.

jayb

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2020, 09:12:08 PM »
...was just thinking out loud looking at your nuts. :o.

LMAO!  I didn't think they were showing...  :-[
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Stangman

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2020, 10:09:00 PM »
Ha Ha. But really did you look into that.

JERICOGTX

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Re: You won't believe how much these cost. Take a guess...
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2020, 11:37:23 AM »
                               Nicely done Jay.Time to wash your hands :)



Says the guy that has destroyed multiple chairs that didn't belong to him...