Author Topic: Convince me an engine lifting plate works  (Read 5628 times)

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chilly460

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2020, 05:19:35 PM »
No problem using the carb plates, as others have said, the bolts are in full tension and plenty strong.  Will say last time I slid the engine in my Merc, I did it with the trans connected and used an engine tilter.  I'd used cheapo Harbor Freight models which are all but useless, bought an OTC for $55 and it was money well spent, very nice being able to tilt a few degrees either way as you're easing it over the rad support. 

Falcon67

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2020, 08:51:59 AM »
Have one, it's been picking up engines for over 20 years. No issues. 

CV355

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2020, 06:50:00 AM »
60kpsi tensile strength yields around 3,000-3,200lbs on a single G2 5/16" bolt, assuming it is 100% tensile and no shear.  You can suspend a typical 4-door car with a single Grade 8 1/4-20 bolt or C12.9 M6 bolt.  Can, doesn't mean should, but it gives a sense of scale to the strength of materials. 

Where a carb plate can fail is:
1)  Hardware is compromised (rusty bolts, hydrogen embrittlement, stress fractures/elongation from previous use, torqued beyond 75% yield or drastically unevenly, etc)
2)  Chain is compromised (same as previous failure modes)
3)  Intake is compromised (too weak to begin with such as sheet metal, stress fractures in castings, threads stripped, etc)
4)  Weld failure (bad weld, damaged from previous use, etc)
Plus unique circumstances that I won't get into because it would be a long list...

A carb plate is actually much safer than bolting down chain to heads/intake because the load is distributed far better between fasteners.  The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear, whereas the chain method always put shear force on the fasteners which is the quickest way to cause failure.  I have never witnessed a carb plate failing, but I have seen chains and fasteners snap when loaded improperly.

When I train up new engineers, I always get asked "how do you pick the right hardware sizes and number of fasteners?"
1)  Determine working loads/moments
2)  Determine default fastener size based on min thread engagement requirements (material thickness or thread engagement = 1.5x dia for ferrous, 2.0x dia ferrous, min)
3)  If the working loads/moments exceed the tensile or shear strength of a fastener sized for min thread engagement, and material thickness cannot be increased or reinforced, add fasteners to distribute loading, perform FEA if application has potential to cause failure or injury (in some cases, add torque pads to prevent deformation)
4)  If forces aren't the limiting factor, default to what is the easiest to manufacture and at the lowest cost (usually means oversize it, tiny hardware is more expensive than larger, common sizes)

99.9% of fasteners used on the planet are drastically oversized based on the loads/moments they see.  Just for S&Gs, I designed up an example assembly using "appropriately sized" hardware and material thicknesses based on loading, and the fasteners were all insanely tiny.  In that example, an M6 bolt would have been 100x oversized, but far easier for the machinist to cut threads and a builder to install than M2.5s everywhere. The assembly looked goofy and fragile, but was designed with a true 4x safety factor.  I showed it to younger engineers to illustrate why not all fasteners or material thicknesses are designed solely for load factors.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-bolts-tensile-proof-load-d_2066.html

Now, with all that said...  I pucker a little every time I see an engine hanging from a carb plate, even though the math says it is totally fine :)

Same goes for tractor tipping angles.  I hit 5 degrees on my tractor and I freak out, even though I know a static 22.5 is safe, mathematically.  Sorry for the long post, this is a subject I enjoy.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 06:58:40 AM by CV355 »

fairlaniac

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2020, 06:57:53 AM »
60kpsi tensile strength yields around 3,000-3,200lbs on a single G2 5/16" bolt, assuming it is 100% tensile and no shear.  You can suspend a typical 4-door car with a single Grade 8 1/4-20 bolt or C12.9 M6 bolt.  Can, doesn't mean should, but it gives a sense of scale to the strength of materials. 

Where a carb plate can fail is:
1)  Hardware is compromised (rusty bolts, hydrogen embrittlement, stress fractures/elongation from previous use, torqued beyond 75% yield or drastically unevenly, etc)
2)  Chain is compromised (same as previous failure modes)
3)  Intake is compromised (too weak to begin with such as sheet metal, stress fractures in castings, threads stripped, etc)
4)  Weld failure (bad weld, damaged from previous use, etc)
Plus unique circumstances that I won't get into because it would be a long list...

A carb plate is actually much safer than bolting down chain to heads/intake because the load is distributed far better between fasteners.  The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear, whereas the chain method always put shear force on the fasteners which is the quickest way to cause failure.  I have never witnessed a carb plate failing, but I have seen chains and fasteners snap when loaded improperly.

When I train up new engineers, I always get asked "how do you pick the right hardware sizes and number of fasteners?"
1)  Determine working loads/moments
2)  Determine default fastener size based on min thread engagement requirements (material thickness or thread engagement = 1.5x dia for ferrous, 2.0x dia ferrous, min)
3)  If the working loads/moments exceed the tensile or shear strength of a fastener sized for min thread engagement, and material thickness cannot be increased or reinforced, add fasteners to distribute loading, perform FEA if application has potential to cause failure or injury (in some cases, add torque pads to prevent deformation)
4)  If forces aren't the limiting factor, default to what is the easiest to manufacture and at the lowest cost

99.9% of fasteners used on the planet are drastically oversized based on the loads/moments they see.  Just for S&Gs, I designed up an example assembly using "appropriately sized" hardware and material thicknesses based on loading, and the fasteners were all insanely tiny.  In that example, an M6 bolt would have been 100x oversized, but far easier for the machinist to cut threads and a builder to install than M2.5s everywhere. The assembly looked goofy and fragile, but was designed with a true 4x safety factor.  I showed it to younger engineers to illustrate why not all fasteners or material thicknesses are designed solely for load factors.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-bolts-tensile-proof-load-d_2066.html

Now, with all that said...  I pucker a little every time I see an engine hanging from a carb plate, even though the math says it is totally fine :)

Same goes for tractor tipping angles.  I hit 5 degrees on my tractor and I freak out, even though I know a static 22.5 is safe, mathematically.  Sorry for the long post, this is a subject I enjoy.

I design a lot of equipment for our steel mill operations and always get into bolt yields. However as you said. When I see an engine hanging...................... that is why I asked my original question.

Thanks!
Doug Bender
1966 Fairlane 427+/5 Spd TKX

CV355

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2020, 07:14:48 AM »
I design a lot of equipment for our steel mill operations and always get into bolt yields. However as you said. When I see an engine hanging...................... that is why I asked my original question.

Thanks!

It's funny how that works.  We both know the math behind it, but it just doesn't "look right." 

8 years ago I was working on a system that needed M64 and M80 fasteners in several areas due to shock loading.  I'll never forget the machinist's face when I handed him that drawing package...  That's what the math called for, and it did not look right, but it functioned properly. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 07:22:07 AM by CV355 »

Thumperbird

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2020, 08:01:19 AM »
"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"

This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)

Picky comment I know.

Falcon67

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2020, 09:43:08 AM »
Common Grade 2 5/16 is around 2900 lbs proof load and there's 4 of them.  Considering I use ARP items everywhere, the 4 carb studs are well double that each.  I don't have the thread strength for 5/16 thread in aluminum, but should be well up there and most studs thread in at least double diameter.   What Me Worry

yellercat

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2020, 10:17:21 AM »
This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.

"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"


Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.
Brad
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cjshaker

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2020, 11:44:08 AM »
This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.

"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"


Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.

Probably for reasons of being sued if something went wrong. Not uncommon for manufacturers to do that.
I admit I still don't like the "idea" of lifting an engine with an aluminum intake, using a plate, but I have yet to hear of an incidence when one failed, including the intake threads, which was always my concern.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

TomP

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2020, 11:51:08 AM »
I  use a homemade carb plate, also made one for dual quads, it's simply two pieces of 1 1/2" angle iron about 18" long that bolt to the four carbs studs in a row with a couple holes drilled in to run a 7/16" 4" long bolt through side to side that the hook fits on. Two positions so it will balance with the bellhousing and clutch or without.

64PI

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2020, 12:24:53 PM »
When I was younger I worked at a shop that built dirt track big block and small block chevys. We had a piece of 2"x 4" square tubing with 2 flanges  that we would bolt to the lift eyes in the carb plate using 3/8" bolts. We would slide the tow motor fork in the tubing to pick them up. I used to lift those chevys 12' in the air to put them on the top of the storage shelves. Never once had a problem. In my shop I use an engine leveler that I use the 4 corner intake bolts. I've found that to be easier for me by myself.

CV355

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2020, 01:14:13 PM »
"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"

This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)

Picky comment I know.

True to an extent.  If everything is torqued properly and the two mating surfaces are flush, then it becomes tricky to calculate what's going on.  The bolts wont feel any shear unless the friction between the plate and intake is exceeded and it shifts in place.  When fasteners are used properly, the mating bodies are considered solid unless external forces exceed that friction created by the fasteners imparting force.

1968galaxie

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2020, 01:36:18 PM »
I believe Darin Morgan once cautioned on the use of lift plates on heavily ported single plane intake manifolds.
For un-ported aluminum intakes or cast iron this would not be an issue at all.

Cheers

blykins

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2020, 02:34:56 PM »
This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.

"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"


Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.

I'd venture to say every Edelbrock intake that has came through here has had a lift plate bolted to it. 
Brent Lykins
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1968galaxie

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Re: Convince me an engine lifting plate works
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2020, 02:43:11 PM »
I haven't had a manifold break either. However, interesting that Edelbrock has issued this caution.
Perhaps they have seen some (perhaps non Ford applications) where a manifold did break when using a lift plate.

Good info.


Cheers
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 02:53:53 PM by 1968galaxie »