1-wired alternator and V-belt squeal

[1976kjell]

Hello and merry christmas


I have a quite similar problem as Pentroof had: https://bit.ly/2QojQoO

In my case, a 1-wired alternater like this https://bit.ly/2t1YGF4 was installed, with a custom bracket like this https://bit.ly/2Q06WhZ


Its the same problem, at start ups, it squeals in some seconds, now and then more than 10 seconds, maybe 30 seconds. When the engine gets hot, its silent

As the attacked images show, the V-belt for the alternator/waterpump has a 10mm wide belt. It is a bit "deep down" in the groove imo.

The belt for the powersteering is 12 mm wide and it looks it isnt as deep in the groove as the 10mm belt

Have the belts the correct width? Are the grooves in the PS-pulley and outer crankpulley wider than the other grooves?

Following rockauto, 10 and 12 mm are correct belts


The crank- and waterpumppulley are the original ones


-Kjell

[jayb]

Have you thought about going to a dual belt pulley on the alternator?  Two belts will reduce the tendency to squeal.  I think I would go to the 12mm belts also, regardless of what Rock Auto says...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g3949b/overview/

[70tp]

Another vote for double belts

[Russ67Scode]

I had to put the dual belt pulley on my 140 amp alternator to stop the belt squealing. 

[TomP]

Belts made in Germany! You have the correct crank and water pump pulleys to just add a dual groove alternator pulley. Those were used on mid 70's pickup trucks. That would solve it with either belt size.
 I had that same problem with a 130 amp alternator, I fixed it by going to a smaller 80 amp alternator. It would squeal the belt and that took rubber off so now the belt is too loose and would need to be adjusted before starting it again. That got tiresome.

[MeanGene]

Yep, the dual belt pickup setup works very well

[1976kjell]

Agree


Its not much work or costs, and it will be more robust also. A dual belt pulley and 12 mm belts will be ordered

If this easy solution wont cure it, what about greasing the belts lightly with silicon dielectric grease when new, in the run-in-period?

#7 in this thread was a bit interesting: https://www.fordmuscleforums.com/threads/alternator-belt-squeal-after-3g-upgrade.497141/

[Joe-JDC]

Don't use dielectric grease, use a bar of hand soap.  The soap will clean the rubber off, and leave a grease free surface to grip the pulleys.  Simply hold the soap gently against the belt/s while the engine is idling, away from the pulley side.    Joe-JDC

[shady]

I also rough-up all the pulley grooves with 80 grit sand paper to de-glaze them.

[Jim Comet]

I put this larger March pulley on my car that has a 1 wire 140 amp alternator. I shift @6700 rpm's and there is no squealing at any time. The alternator charges great and I never have to charge the battery between rounds. I do run open headers so maybe I just can't hear any squealing !!

https://marchperformance.com/corvette-small-block-single-groove-aluminum-alternator-v-belt-pulley-with-cover.html

[Pentroof]

Well, a little update to my scenario, which was referenced. I could not get even a Kevlar belt to last sufficiently, so I ultimately swapped to a dual v belt setup.

Since I also have AC and power steering on that truck, I went a little non-conventional. I ordered a set of triple pulleys for the crank and water pump from CVF. Two rows are dedicated to the alternator. The AC is driven from the 3rd row on the crank and the power steering is driven from the third row on the water pump.

With two belts providing the power to the water pump, I’m comfortable with using that as a drive for the power steering. Power steering doesn’t require high tension and it’s not working that hard most of the time. Works great, and I still have the look I want with the AC compressor mounted down low on the passenger side.

[1976kjell]

A small update:

Work has began. Im not a car electric expert, but some knowledge I have. I assume its ok to remove the old generator regulator.

There is a black/yellow wire (orange/green arrow - same wire) from the regulator to the starter solenoid, its connected to same location as the red wire from the alternator (yellow arrows). Can this be disconnected from the solenoid?

Another wire, the yellow/black has the same route,  this is for the charging warning light, so it will be connected to the alternator


My plan is to loosen the three screws on the regulator, disconnect the wires. The insulate the metalconnectors on the wires and "hide" them in the engine bay

Non of the electric components are dependent on the old regulator?

The last picture is of the waterpump pulley. Does the rows look ok? That pulley, and the crankpulley was sandblasted some years ago. Then painted black, except the rows

These pictures are big, tried to make them more fitted for using here, but its still best to open them in a new tab

[TomP]

Those pictures remind me of school.... looking at things in the microscope in Science class !

You don't need the wire from the regulator to the solenoid but there should also be a thick wire from the regulator that feeds power to the fuse block. The light for the charge indicator can be hooked up. The main power wire from the alternator to the solenoid should be thick, like a #6 ga. I ran a 150 amp MegaFuse wrapped in a piece of heater hose when I did mine.

[63.5xl]

Well, a little update to my scenario, which was referenced. I could not get even a Kevlar belt to last sufficiently, so I ultimately swapped to a dual v belt setup.

Since I also have AC and power steering on that truck, I went a little non-conventional. I ordered a set of triple pulleys for the crank and water pump from CVF. Two rows are dedicated to the alternator. The AC is driven from the 3rd row on the crank and the power steering is driven from the third row on the water pump.

With two belts providing the power to the water pump, I’m comfortable with using that as a drive for the power steering. Power steering doesn’t require high tension and it’s not working that hard most of the time. Works great, and I still have the look I want with the AC compressor mounted down low on the passenger side.

How did the same size pulleys on thr crank and waterpump work out get, any cooling issues?

[cammerfe]

The one time, twenty years ago, that I had a noisy belt problem, I solved it with 'belt dressing'. Comes in a can about the same size as 3-In-One oil. If you get a bit on your fingers, you'll find it becomes seriously tacky in a few seconds. I never did anything else to the belts or pulleys during the time I owned that car---and that was several years.

KS

[chris401]

Dual alternator pulleys started in FE powered 1965 on pickups. I do not know about the Y-Block era. It is mentioned on the Slick60's website what the circumstances were to get the dual alternator belt set up. Seems like it was F-100 with a towing package and all FE F-250s. The better vanilla dual belt set up came out in 68 with the new balancer. Pictured is my 65 F-250 and a 66 F-250 engine. 

EDIT: The 3G I swapped in is a Ford unit. I did it when the truck got a new wiring harness. Simply ran the exciter wire through the ALT bulb. Works as it should but does squeal at first start if it sits for a few days with the trailer plugged in.

[cleandan]

V-Belts run on a few principles.
Look at the side view of a V-belt.
The cord body you see is where the power is transfered.
The rubber V below the cord body is there to keep the belt from being forced inot the pulley groove.
The rubber above the cord body is there to give substance and stability to the cord body.

V-Belts squeal because they are slipping...I know. EVERYBODY knows that.
But did you know the slip can come from worn pulleys, worn belts, dry belts, overheated belts, wrong sized belt for the pulley groove depth and groove angle, improper tension, belt whip, contamination in the air or directly on the belt.

The belt size, and pulley diameter/contact area play a big role in the amount of power a belt can transfer.

With your one wire alternator keep in mind it was probably designed for use with a poly-V Belt rather than a single V-Belt.
The poly-V Belt is capable of transfering much more torque than a single V-Belt and often poly-V pulley is designed smaller in diameter too. This often results in a smallish single V pulley being installed on the alternator in order to keep the same speed as the original intended use...and this often does not correlate to a good fit with the FE installation.

Worn pulleys get a bulge cut into them where the cord body of the V-Belt rides. Once this worn area is deep enough (does not look like much wear) the new V-Belt can not transfer proper torque because the cord body is not in proper contact with the pulley.
The belt will slip, squeal, and wear quickly but then a new issue pops up.
The belt is no longer a linear sided V-belt. Instead it now has a weird bulge shape to match the pulley and this never allows for full power transfer...It also causes other issues.

If the pulley has the correct depth and angle, and is not worn.
If the belt is the correct size (V shape, angle and depth) and riding at the correct depth in the pulley. (the V-Belt should be almost flush with the top of the pulley, or slightly recessed in the pulley, not sticking up any amount above the pulley.)
If the contact area around the pulley is maximized for the application and location and you still get belt slip...Then you need to change to more pulleys in order to transfer the required power.

[allrightmike]

Very good post cleandan; you mention contact area, could that be called wrap or how many degrees of belt contact does exist? I have seen installations where the belt almost just passes accost the pulley.

[cleandan]

allrightmike, that is exactly what I am talking about. The amount of belt contact around the pulley has a huge impact on the power that belt can put into the pulley.
There are other factors used to determine which belt is best: how much wrap, the diameter of the pulley, the physical size of the belt, and the belts speed, among a few other things.

But, basically, if you get more belt to pulley contace, you increase power transfer.

Yes, I have seen some belt to pulley applications with about 30 degrees of belt wrap, basically the belt is passing by the pulley. But if the pulley being driven does not require much power it will work great.

[machoneman]

Adding an idler with tension (ala' Ford's single-belt, Fox-bodied 5.0's) would help a lot with 'wrap' although it would not look anywhere near stock.

[57 lima bean]

         Not having an AMP/Volt gauge,the sound of a belt sequel is an audible prove-out.

[cleandan]

With a V-Belt, the tensioner does not work well like it does with a poly-V belt.
If you use a tensioner with V-Belts you should run the pulley on the V side of the belt.
If you run the tensioner on the back side of a V-Belt it tends to break the back of the belt and they wear out pretty quickly.

Running the tensioner on the back side of the belt will allow you to force the belt to wrap around the pulley more...with a longer belt of course, but it is not the best way to do things with V-Belts.

This is but one of the reasons the makers went away from single V-Belts.
The Poly-V Belts are capable of transfering more torque in a smaller area and being wrapped around the pulley more with less issues.

[70tp]

Maybe try a “cloth covered” lawnmower style belt?   They can tolerate some more slip without a lot of wear.   They aren’t always available in every width but usually you can get “close enough”    Lawnmower belts can transfer a lot of abuse and still not complain.   Some are available in Kevlar also.     They will tolerate  more misalignment and abuse than a normal belt. 

[BigBlueIron]

With a V-Belt, the tensioner does not work well like it does with a poly-V belt.
If you use a tensioner with V-Belts you should run the pulley on the V side of the belt.
If you run the tensioner on the back side of a V-Belt it tends to break the back of the belt and they wear out pretty quickly.

Running the tensioner on the back side of the belt will allow you to force the belt to wrap around the pulley more...with a longer belt of course, but it is not the best way to do things with V-Belts.

This is but one of the reasons the makers went away from single V-Belts.
The Poly-V Belts are capable of transfering more torque in a smaller area and being wrapped around the pulley more with less issues.

Right on the money, you can get away with it in most cases but it directly effects belt life.

If the regular dual belts are slipping try a notched or cogged belt.

Side note that has nothing to do with the performance but I have always liked the look of the dual alternator belt setup over a single for some reason. Just more industrial makes me feel warm and fuzzy.