Methanol/water injection

[Dan859]

The Germans were using methanol injection in their airplane engines back in the 30's.  It was controlled by the pilot, and could only be used for a short period of time, but it provided a definite power boost.  As others have noted, I remember back in the 70's, when water/alcohol injection kits came out, to compensate for lower octane gasoline.

[plovett]

By the end of WWII the Germans had M/W systems that could be used continuously for around 30 minutes.  Of course that dictates a fairly big tank for the M/W.  They needed it because their gas had much lower octane than ours.  It is hard to make high quality fuel when your refineries are getting bombed pretty much weekly.

There was a period mid-war, maybe 1943 and 1944 when their planes (engines) were getting their ass kicked because they couldn't run as much boost and they hadn't implemented a way to compensate yet.  By wars end, there was parity again, but of course too late.  Of course there are lots of other factors, too.  The guy who designed the two stage supercharger for the Merlin was knighted, with good reason.  The Merlin engine itself wasn't overly impressive in my opinion, but the two stage blower was a work of art.  Combine that with good fuel and you can do amazing things.

I don't know if the numbers translate directly, but they had two main grades of fuel, something like 87 and 100 octane.  By the end of the war we had something like 120 and even 150 octane, allowing more manifold pressure.

An on top of that we could inject M/W, too.  I don't think we used nitrous oxide?  But the Germans did.

Aero piston engines are very interesting.

paulie

[Faron]

I am installing a Snow Performance system on my newest 671 Blown 390 Combo ( higher compression than the norm rule for street pump gas combo , as its 10.25-1 ) hope to be running at the 2020 FE Race and reunion this year , also going back to my C-6 combo for now will let you all know how it works , The new Meth systems are a quantum leap in technology compared to the water injection systems that were previously available , they are a far cry from a windshield washer pump and a nozzle :-)

[Tommy-T]

I ran a Snow water injection set-up on my blown 454 FE for quite a long time. It worked fine and the results were exactly as advertised. I bought the Snow "Boost Juice" but you could buy methanol and demineralized water and mix your own for cheaper. The only gripe I had about the Snow system is that the controller is quite small and getting my fat fingers to work it was difficult. You can ramp in the amount and boost level that the water/meth comes in with the Snow system.

In my research on the water/meth systems I came across some interesting data. It seems the 50/50 mixture was decided upon by current kit manufacturers not because it gives the best results. At 50/50 the the mixture is supposedly not flammable and reduces liability of selling the kits. Alcohols burn with an invisible flame and fires are highly discouraged. Many use straight methanol, but most serious users reportedly are using a 70/30 meth/water mix.

[plovett]

I am installing a Snow Performance system on my newest 671 Blown 390 Combo ( higher compression than the norm rule for street pump gas combo , as its 10.25-1 ) hope to be running at the 2020 FE Race and reunion this year , also going back to my C-6 combo for now will let you all know how it works , The new Meth systems are a quantum leap in technology compared to the water injection systems that were previously available , they are a far cry from a windshield washer pump and a nozzle :-)

Where do you inject the M/W in a roots blower application?   Sounds like it is going to run hard.

paulie

[Leny Mason]

I am looking to buy a system for My supercharged Cammer , I think I will inject in just under the Enderly hat, so it good to read about it hear wit someone that have done it, I drilled the intake for injectors so I can use the Hilborn plate for the meth system I think any way ?. Leny Mason

[GerryP]

Excess is just right for the cammer, Leny.

[plovett]

I would think you would want the M/W injected after the blower.  But I don't know.  I certainly don't water going through my blower.  I think it eventually causes pitting on the rotors and case?  Plus, it seems like adding the "coolant" after the charge is heated would be more beneficial than before?  Again, I don't know for sure.

paulie

[Tommy-T]

On my Snow kit the water/meth was injected in plates, similar to nitrous plates, under the carbs. I ran it for 3-4 years with no harmful effects to my blower and the fellow who has the Mustang now has run it for a couple more years. The way I had mine set up was that the system started injecting a small amount at 5 lbs. of boost and was "all in" at 8 lbs. so it's not as though the blower is seeing the Boost Juice except when your leaning on it.

[plovett]

On my Snow kit the water/meth was injected in plates, similar to nitrous plates, under the carbs. I ran it for 3-4 years with no harmful effects to my blower and the fellow who has the Mustang now has run it for a couple more years. The way I had mine set up was that the system started injecting a small amount at 5 lbs. of boost and was "all in" at 8 lbs. so it's not as though the blower is seeing the Boost Juice except when your leaning on it.

Good to know.  Thanks.  Maybe I was thinking of injecting M/W into the inlet of a centrifugal blower causing issues?  Or maybe it is not an issue at all.

paulie

[BigBlueIron]

It can potentially cause an issue (erosion of blade tips) in a turbo if injected pre compressor wheel, but is still done quite a bit. I don't think there is any issue on a blower.

[Stangman]

Faron have you had that bad boy at the track before. With the blower.

[Faron]

I put the Blower on in 1987 rather than try and find a 427 block , it was raced from then till 2010 best time of 10.56@133.56 in full pa street trim 10.33@134.87 in race trim .this is a new combo , more cam better heads ( Blair Patrick Prepped ) 10.25-1 compression oh and the car weighs 3675 with me in it

[Stangman]

Thats sweet and impressive

[pbf777]

It can potentially cause an issue (erosion of blade tips) in a turbo if injected pre compressor wheel, but is still done quite a bit. I don't think there is any issue on a blower.

     With the turbos, I've witnessed failures of the impeller from shedding vanes to complete loss experienced when injecting chilling fluids into the compressors.       

      In the case of GMC blowers, the concern would be if the cooling effect to the rotors caused enough distortion to effect the available clearances in either the rotor to rotor, or the rotor to case.  This would only be ascertained upon inspection, as the sum of clearances and fluid varies in each instance.

     Scott.