My 2019 EMC engine Horsepower guess?

[Joe-JDC]

This year's entry will be another 292 Y Block Ford that is a true Y Block with Ford block, iron heads, crankshaft, oil pan, water pump driven by fan belt.  It will be +.062 over bore at 3.812", and the stroke is 3.310" with 10.45:1 compression rounded up to 303 CI.  Camshaft is solid lifter with 233/240 @ .050, 105* CL, .591" zero lash, and single four aluminum intake with BG 930 DP, FPA headers, MSD ignition.

I will be in partnership with Ted Eaton this year for the challenge.  We are supposed to be 6th up on Monday.

What is your guess on torque and horsepower?  Originally this engine was rated from Ford at 202 HP.

Joe-JDC

[mbrunson427]

I’ll take a stab.... 430hp, 360tq.

[Barry_R]

I'll go with 370 TQ and 385 HP

Joe - - you are actually running two engines in this years contest since you did the heads and intake on my entry as well.

[57 lima bean]

Are there EMC RPM parameters?

[shady]

390 hp- 375 torq

[Joe-JDC]

Are there EMC RPM parameters?

Yes, this year you can choose a 3000 rpm band that you want to compete with.  The rpm band is from 3200-7200, and they start the pull 200 before your start point, and go 100 rpm past the cutoff point.  The lowest pull will be 3200-6200, and highest pull will be 4200-7200.  The average tq and average hp for that 3000 rpm band will be added together and multiplied by 1000, and then divided by the claimed cubic inch.  Add your three best pulls together and average them for the final score.  This year, it made the camshaft selection a bit more difficult, but did let us choose our best pulls in a given rpm range.  I really like that idea, especially for these older engines, pre '69.   Joe-JDC

[57 lima bean]

Thanks Joe.......415hp 365tq.....Good luck with the XYZ 28 engine.

[My427stang]

I am going to say 475 HP / 380 TQ, I think you likely have it breathing pretty well

[Stangman]

How about 385 HP and 385 torque.

[Royce]

I think Mr Brunson will be real close.  I will go with 425 and 350.  This thing would be killer at 12:1

[57 lima bean]

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/studebakers-and-y-block-fords-on-the-dyno/ 

[Joe-JDC]

Update.  At home we were making 390 tq, 454 hp, using a mixture of pump gas and 110 VP.  At EMC, 367 tq, 430 hp.  The fuel used threw us a curve, again.  Brought a drum back to Texas for testing to get a handle on the Sunoco 100 oxygenated.  Made 12 pulls in our 35 minutes, two jet changes, and a timing change, all the wrong way due to the fuel not responding as expected.  Lean mixture of the oxygenated fuel will run hot and not produce more power.  It needs more fuel, not less.  Lesson learned.  Still, not bad for a 303 cubic inch Y block that is a 64 year old design.  Joe-JDC 

[gdaddy01]

not bad indeed . love to see you still learning after all these years .

[gdaddy01]

mbrunson427
Sr. Member
****

« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 11:04:50 PM »
Quote
I’ll take a stab.... 430hp, 360tq.



you must have known something about the fuel being used at emc . that was very close .

[machoneman]

Nice Joe with 1.287 per CID torque and 1.498 on hp. Scaled up, for the heck of it, to say a 427 CID FE, that's 550 torque and 640 on hp! 

[e philpott]

That's still cranking Joe ! Good job

[mbrunson427]

Joe, I think I may have pinpointed a slight error in the EMC dyno test cell as well, not really confirmed yet. If the weather station was not placed inside the test cell in this situation, the weather data was incorrect. To get air exhausting through the room, you'll need a slight pressure drop of roughly 1". So hypothetically, on a 30" barometric pressure day, the dyno cell itself would be at 29" during a run. Plug that into the horsepower correction equation and the factor change is significant.

As was said on the other thread, all engines ran in this scenario, so all is fair. But this could be part of the explanation of being down some HP on their dyno.

[Katz427]

You are confusing air pressure in inches of water with barometric pressure which is given in inches of mercury. 1 inch of water is .0734 inches of mercury. The Dyno room there, is pretty accurate for  atmospheric corrections.

[blykins]

Joe, I think I may have pinpointed a slight error in the EMC dyno test cell as well, not really confirmed yet. If the weather station was not placed inside the test cell in this situation, the weather data was incorrect. To get air exhausting through the room, you'll need a slight pressure drop of roughly 1". So hypothetically, on a 30" barometric pressure day, the dyno cell itself would be at 29" during a run. Plug that into the horsepower correction equation and the factor change is significant.

As was said on the other thread, all engines ran in this scenario, so all is fair. But this could be part of the explanation of being down some HP on their dyno.

You don't want the weather cell in the room with the engine.  When the engine gets hot and the headers get hot, it makes the temperature go up in the room, which affects the correction factor.

[Joe-JDC]

The dyno room there had a very negative area above the carburetor.  You could see the air swirling above the top of the dyno cell, especially with those engines that had valve cover leaks and smoked.  The room was terrible hot this year, and the air exchange was brought in the front of the engine, and went out near the floor at the rear of the room, so no fresh air actually was circulating near the carburetor area.  At UNWO, they had air from outside the cell blowing directly on the carburetor area from a large flexible tubing.  No excuses, everyone had the same conditions.   Joe-JDC

[mbrunson427]

You are confusing air pressure in inches of water with barometric pressure which is given in inches of mercury.

You know what....you're completely right.

I still am not a fan of how their cell was designed however. I've got napkin sketches of how I want the dyno cell at my place to look like, it's got a filtered plenum box above the cell that would be ducted down to the carb. The barometric pressure reading and temp reading would come from inside that plenum box.

Superflow suggests 10 air exchanges per minute minimum inside the dyno cells, which as Joe described, creates a wind tunnel inside the room. I think the carb intake air needs to be separated from the room air to avoid situations such as that.

[Royce]

Back in the day...   Before wide band O2 sensors.... a bell with a turbine was fitted tightly over the carb intake.. On most dynos it pulled outside air so the engine would never get fed dyno room air... I think Jay still uses this setup.. Certainly not the JE dyno

[Katz427]

In upstate New York, any opening on the roof that allows air or other products of the process to enter the atmosphere, we had to state to the DEC what the chemical composition of the air leaving was to our best estimate. I don't know about Ohio, but in NY it is a legal issue, air quality with oversight by the DEC. The owners of the building really frowned on putting any openings to the out doors except for the exhaust, which was necessary. We did have an A/C system with makeup air to keep temperatures inside the Dyno room reasonable.

[57 lima bean]

            An interesting video    .....   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB_Q9qpvnL0

[Royce]

Geeze  I see a bunch of un-necessary stuff and then  missed opportunities to add another 30 or 40 horse without disturbing it's manners..  Steve dropped this here just to get a rise out of Joe and I...Mission accomplished !!   I ran a bone stock 58 292 2 bbl on the dyno and it made 215 horse.

[Joe-JDC]

I have finally gotten around to follow up on dyno testing of my EMC 303 Y Block, and found a couple of rookie mistakes that I don't understand, but it is what it is.  My timing when I took the engine off the dyno here in TX was best at 37* total, and produced the same numbers at 38*, so we decided to leave it alone and dial it back in Ohio if needed.  The horsepower was 453.7/390 tq and several pulls over 450 hp.  We were down 24/24 on our dyno pulls at EMC, and nothing we did seemed to affect it more than a few horsepower.  However, when I checked my timing here, it was set on 42*, and we never actually changed it during the dyno session (my mistake), or messed with it before starting the engine here this week.  That cost me about 12 of those 24 hp we lost, and we were starting to think maybe the dyno was a bit happy here, but it has not been in the past.  We bought two sections of 4" flexible exhaust tubing to add to my header extensions like they use at JE Pistons dyno cell, and lost another 10 hp, bringing the horsepower down to 430, which is what we made at EMC.  So, tuning for the small flexible exhaust tubing, and timing set way too high were responsible for the loss of the horsepower difference from TX to Ohio.  Took the exhaust tubing off, and set the timing correctly, checked valve lash, plugs, and made a couple of jet changes for the weather here, and we were back at 454 hp/389 tq.  Tried a new intake manifold, and hit 461.2 hp/399.7 tq with the same carburetor we used at EMC.  So the little Y now has 67 dyno pulls, makes over 461 hp, and nearly 400 tq.  Not too shabby for a 62 year old iron head Ford.  Joe-JDC

[My427stang]

Good numbers for that old girl, and neat detective work.  It's amazing how little things make big differences.  Nice work

[BruceS]

Amazing power from that 'ol Y Joe!  Could eat off of any part of it too. Do you plan to run this at some point in your '55 T-Bird? 

[Gregwill16]

That would be alot of fun in little T-bird. Nice job!

[Joe-JDC]

It may find it's place in the '55 T-bird, but I have a 345 Y, and the 375 Y that I am working on, also.  The hp/tq cubic inch for an iron head and 10.4:1 compression is 1.522/1.319.  That is very efficient for what it started life as.  It actually will idle down to a decent 750 rpm, and sounds like no regular Y with the Mike Jones Racing camshaft.   I will be back on the dyno next week for another intake test, and a camshaft change to see if there is anything we left on the table with this build.  I ported that junky iron intake that I posted pictures of last year with all the rust pitting, and I ran it last after making the 461.2 hp, and the iron intake made 437 hp.  Not too bad for the old iron since it was only down 25 hp from the best aluminum intake available after porting.  I tried the new single plane Mummert intake that I ported, on this engine, and it is the one that made 461.2 hp. Joe-JDC