Author Topic: Boring 390's  (Read 19636 times)

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frnkeore

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2019, 03:07:09 PM »
Frank, I don't claim any special information. Having said that, I have never read anywhere that early FEs were not thin wall. I have read that Ford's reason for the FE architecture was the thin wall casting to create a lighter block. My mention of 4.63 spacing is that it tends to limit production bore sizes, and later over bores, particularly when combined with the casting techniques and metallurgy of the period. The Lincoln Y-block 368 was a 4 inch bore, I imagine limited to some degree by the spacing.

BTW, the comment in the article about 428 bore sizes on 390 blocks does NOT describe what tests he did to do it, you can almost guarantee a lot of blocks didn't pass the test, and that some that did still failed.

Sadly, there isn't a treasure trove of special FEs out there we can use.
What you do not realize, is that Fords "Thin Wall" technology  did not occur until the release of the 1960 Falcon 144/170 engine. It was advertised a lot when it was released. It was again advertised when the 221/260 came out in '62, never before that. I would be interested in your citation of the FE being designed as a thin wall engine.

The FE engine was not, what you would call a light weight engine. The industrial engines, weighed in at 711-720 lb (I have the specs for those) based on that and my recollection, the car engine was in the 670-680 lb class, with cast iron intake and water pump. Has anyone weighed their engines with aluminum intake and water pump?

The 317-368 Linc/Merc engine was another one commonly bored 1/8". All engines, designed before '60, where commonly bore 1/8", including the SBC 283's. Although, I don't remember 327 and 350's being bored 1/8" but .060, for sure.  For those that say a Ford can not be bored even  a 1/8th, I have to refer you to the flathead engine, that was commonly bored 3/16 (I had one) and could be bored 1/4" on some blocks.

With the "thin wall" engines, Ford was able to decrease the distance between bores to .38 and still use .040 over, SBC to .40 with .060 over and Siamesed cylinders to .255-.275  and still allow a overbore. Take that technology to the FE and you get 4.25 - 4.375. Only the limited production, 427 had anything like that. Another reason I don't believe the early engines were "thin Wall".

Regarding block testing, I don't think anyone did that, prior to '80 and as a mechanic, between '62 and '70, I never heard of a cracked FE (hell, they weren't even called FE's before at least '75). The only racked blocks I ever saw was a std bore 350 SBC, cracked in the bore and a 312 cracked in the main bearing web. You also have to remember that the FE stands for Ford Edsel and that Edsel engine started life, in '58 at a 4.05 bore with .060 over pistons available.

Just a guess on my part but, the 352 casting numbers might mean that they used the original 352 sand cores on those blocks.

I'm not trying to say, the criteria that you are using is wrong not at all! What I started out looking for was the approx date that the FE was changed to a "thin wall" type engine and I would be interested in knowing the weight difference from that, if so.

I do not have a citation to back up, that they where changed, it's just something I read, at some time. From the response, that I'm getting, it sound like the if there was a change it may have occurred early (like '65/'68) and then a change that involved truck and 428 type blocks?
Frank

Heo

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 03:21:39 PM »
What i know for sure is i have a 64 block  cast in 63 that
is .060 over and sonics thin in one spot (.105) not much
thicker in other spots. It have the knobs for crossbolts but
not machined as such



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

frnkeore

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 03:34:19 PM »
I've already dated myself but, I have a question:

Do any of you remember Ak Miller? He was a Ford employed performance expert. He knew all things Ford and had access to the Ford engineering staff. He did special projects for Ford, modifying, almost all Ford engines.

Here is a additional part part of his '71 article, where he reinforces boring 390's, .080 over, to 4.13.

Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, I'm just looking for info and sharing mine.

Sorry, the pic isn't that good but, readable.
Frank

falcongeorge

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2019, 03:44:18 PM »
Do any of you remember Ak Miller?
Yes, very well, and more than just an article in Hot Rod. but we are really beating a dead horse here.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 03:53:26 PM by falcongeorge »

mike7570

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 03:49:27 PM »
390 C-4 Block I sold a while back. Another .046 over? not too likely.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:07:14 PM by mike7570 »

blykins

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 04:38:24 PM »
I've already dated myself but, I have a question:

Do any of you remember Ak Miller? He was a Ford employed performance expert. He knew all things Ford and had access to the Ford engineering staff. He did special projects for Ford, modifying, almost all Ford engines.

Here is a additional part part of his '71 article, where he reinforces boring 390's, .080 over, to 4.13.

Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, I'm just looking for info and sharing mine.

Sorry, the pic isn't that good but, readable.

I hate to sound crass, but I've heard of the name and he is wrong. 

Yes, we are beating a dead horse, but I would not reinforce to anyone to waste a good 390 block by trying to take it to a 428 bore.  You're much better off with having thick/stable cylinder walls and make up the cubic inches with a different crankshaft, or just flat out make more horsepower with better parts than we had 50 years ago. 

Again, what do you expect to gain from going to the large bore?  A 2.190/2.200" intake valve will work perfectly well on a 4.080" bore size and make big horsepower to boot. 
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
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FERoadster

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 06:59:04 PM »
Interesting that Mike7570's C4 block has the 2 bolt engine mount pattern and my C5 has the 4 bolt hole pattern.
Was C4 to C5 the changeover?
Richard

thatdarncat

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 07:04:01 PM »
Interesting that Mike7570's C4 block has the 2 bolt engine mount pattern and my C5 has the 4 bolt hole pattern.
Was C4 to C5 the changeover?
Richard

Yes, the 1965 model year was the changeover. So blocks started to be cast in the summer of calendar year 1964. A lot of new stuff started with the all new chassis 1965 full size Fords.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

frnkeore

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 07:34:44 PM »
Since you asked. What I'm looking for is free HP and a less expensive build.

4.125 adds 10 cubic inches, over 4.080 and I have a set of 4.125 forged pistons.

Whether or not, in your opinion Ak Miller and others, are wrong, is irrelevant to me, I only know that it was done by many and a usable platform.

The OP was only about when the FE changed to a thin wall casting and at this point, no one seems to know or where to point me, to find out. But, I did ask how much you can bore a late engine and find out that if you bore a later FE to .040, it will not last.

I thought that there might be some technical info from Fords engineering dept available on this forum.

Thank you all, for your input.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:39:39 PM by frnkeore »
Frank

falcongeorge

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2019, 07:41:30 PM »

I hate to sound crass, but I've heard of the name and he is wrong. 

Yes, we are beating a dead horse, but I would not reinforce to anyone to waste a good 390 block by trying to take it to a 428 bore.  You're much better off with having thick/stable cylinder walls and make up the cubic inches with a different crankshaft, or just flat out make more horsepower with better parts than we had 50 years ago. 

Again, what do you expect to gain from going to the large bore?  A 2.190/2.200" intake valve will work perfectly well on a 4.080" bore size and make big horsepower to boot.
heres the thing, Brent and I basically disagree on this, my position is, if you are smart about it, careful and systematic in your approach, and willing to go to a LOT of effort to hunt up the right block and then sonic test it, you can build a good 4.13 bore FE from SOME (very bloody few) 390 blocks. Brents position is, and in his place as a professional engine builder that is going to send this out the door under the arm of a customer who has paid him a substantial sum, I understand his trepidation, that its not worth it.
The real irony is, you seem to be discounting what BOTH of us are telling you, and feel that, in spite of looking at a couple of sonic maps of early 390 blocks, and Heo telling you that he had an early block that had a thin spot at +.060, you are INSISTENT that NONE of us know what the hell we are talking about, based on a 50 year old article in Hot Rod Magazine.
Now go back to my first sentence, where I mention being "careful and systematic"...do you see why both Brent and I might see a problem here? Probably not...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:59:18 PM by falcongeorge »

blykins

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2019, 08:08:48 PM »
Since you asked. What I'm looking for is free HP and a less expensive build.

4.125 adds 10 cubic inches, over 4.080 and I have a set of 4.125 forged pistons.

Whether or not, in your opinion Ak Miller and others, are wrong, is irrelevant to me, I only know that it was done by many and a usable platform.

The OP was only about when the FE changed to a thin wall casting and at this point, no one seems to know or where to point me, to find out. But, I did ask how much you can bore a late engine and find out that if you bore a later FE to .040, it will not last.

I thought that there might be some technical info from Fords engineering dept available on this forum.

Thank you all, for your input.

10 cubes is only about 12-13 hp.  Not really worth the effort. 

Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
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plovett

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2019, 08:13:42 PM »
Brent is simply right.  The gains from a few thousandths larger bore size are probably not even measurable.   The destruction from a cylinder wall a few thousandths too thin is VERY measurable.

JMO,

paulie


plovett

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2019, 08:16:38 PM »

10 cubes is only about 12-13 hp.  Not really worth the effort.

See...I don't agree it is even that much.  I would love to see a back to back test with only 10 cubes difference.  Never seen one. But he is still right about the core issue.

JMO,

paulie

falcongeorge

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2019, 08:25:01 PM »
Since you asked. What I'm looking for is free HP and a less expensive build.

4.125 adds 10 cubic inches, over 4.080 and I have a set of 4.125 forged pistons.

Whether or not, in your opinion Ak Miller and others, are wrong, is irrelevant to me, I only know that it was done by many and a usable platform.

The OP was only about when the FE changed to a thin wall casting and at this point, no one seems to know or where to point me, to find out. But, I did ask how much you can bore a late engine and find out that if you bore a later FE to .040, it will not last.

I thought that there might be some technical info from Fords engineering dept available on this forum.

Thank you all, for your input.

10 cubes is only about 12-13 hp.  Not really worth the effort.
Whats 13 cfm@.500 lift worth? Now, add that to the 12-13 hp from the extra 10 ci, and all of a sudden, its 20-25 hp. Because that's the difference in intake port flow I saw on my bench just by switching from a 4.03  bore fixture to a 4.155 bore fixture on a brand X head. That little test happened because several of us noticed that the flow numbers on some of the RHS heads a few years back looked a little "happy", and that the published flow numbers were obtained on a 4.155 bore fixture. Everything affects something else.
But the fact is, anybody that thinks that what he reads in the magazines is God-given gospel, and is going to ignore 2 sonic maps, and everything else that's been posted here, is in over his head boring a 390 block to 4.13. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Man, if I had a dollar for every piece of pure, unadulterated horsecrap I have read in the magazines over the years, I wouldn't NEED to worry about boring a 390 block to 4.13, I'd be able to buy a BBM block on the proceeds... ::)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 08:29:55 PM by falcongeorge »

thatdarncat

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Re: Boring 390's
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2019, 09:08:28 PM »
I just went to the garage and popped a core plug from a EDC-6015-C 1958 model year block I have. Date code is “7 0 B”, which is 1957 October 2nd. So a pretty early FE. A 1/4” ( 16/64” ) drill bit fits totally loose between the cylinders, the same as pretty much every other 352-390. You could easily get 17/64” or 18/64” in there. I’m sorry, there was no “switch” to thin wall cast FE’s, they’ve been the same since the start. Many years ago I used to part out ‘58 FE’s to get the EDC heads & adjustable rockers, I never saw a thick cylinder ‘58 FE. You’re getting good info from everyone, I’m sorry it wasn’t what you wanted to hear. Like the guys said, occasionally you find an anomaly, but it’s darn rare.





 
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V