Author Topic: L-2291F Clearance?  (Read 6096 times)

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66FAIRLANE

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L-2291F Clearance?
« on: September 15, 2019, 05:43:22 PM »
I am going again with my +.040 L-2291F's & a different block. Attached is the sheet I got with them 20 plus years ago. My machine shop was extremely surprised at the small clearance. I did measure everything up when I first built this but no way can remember what my original machine shop did.

Is this clearance, .002, correct?


falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2019, 05:58:35 PM »
Sounds about right. TRW/Sealed Power forgings don't need as much skirt clearance as aftermarket forgings. You may want to go a LITTLE looser (like .0005-.0007 more) depending on application and how the engine is going to be used, but .002 is about right if its a motor that is seeing predominately mild street use. These pistons were originally intended as an upgrade for stock rebuilds, but they are very durable, and have a nice skirt design that is easy on the cylinder walls. The thick rings are a little dated, but I like 'em, still use them a LOT. Much prefer them to hypers.

67428GT500

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2019, 11:51:50 PM »
The 70 TRW forged 428 pistons I had in the other block called for .007-.009. That is WAY too tight for TRW pistons. The new JE forged pistons have a minimum of .004 with modern material.

falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 09:59:20 AM »

wayne

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 12:00:10 PM »
Yes that is tight for trw pistons unless they have changed.007-.009 sounds right. A guy i used to work with ran a boss 302 bored it .010 and ran std pistons he turned it 8000+.It broke the stock forged pistons after he made the bore larger it never broke a any more.

C6AE

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 12:14:25 PM »
Maybe put one in a 250° oven and measure it?

frnkeore

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 12:18:05 PM »
Back in the late '60's, I had 3, 271 HP, 289's (all 5 bolts). I only tore one of them down, but all 8 forged (TRW I believe) pistons had cracks in the oil return slots. I did flog it a lot, in those days. I've never bought any kind of pistons, that used slots, after that. Overall the slots create a very weak area in the piston. That said if, if these L-2291F, are sloted.

If they are sloted and your going to run them, I would install them at .002 and no more than .003. I think any additional clearance will cause them to crack early.

Frank

Frank

falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 12:49:33 PM »
Back in the late '60's, I had 3, 271 HP, 289's (all 5 bolts). I only tore one of them down, but all 8 forged (TRW I believe) pistons had cracks in the oil return slots. I did flog it a lot, in those days. I've never bought any kind of pistons, that used slots, after that. Overall the slots create a very weak area in the piston. That said if, if these L-2291F, are sloted.

If they are sloted and your going to run them, I would install them at .002 and no more than .003. I think any additional clearance will cause them to crack early.

Frank
L2291's are a replacement piston with the slotted skirt.

Falcon67

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 04:50:58 PM »
Don't know specifically about those, but the old TRW forged I put in the 302 (4.030) were set at .0035 and the shop said "make damn sure it's warmed up before you hit it."  That was in 1996, and it's still running fine.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:02:04 AM by Falcon67 »

falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2019, 06:21:37 PM »
Crap, how do I get myself into these situations, why cant I learn to just KEEP MY BIG MOUTH SHUT!  ::) ;D
OK, this is basically all in reference to the "old days" when all these pistons were made domestically, but under the old system, there were basically two different species of TRW/Sealed Power/Speed Pro forged pistons, there is the "stock replacement line" pretty much direct copies of OEM pistons and were boxed as TRW or Sealed Power, these generally had a slotted oil ring land, were the same weight as the oem piston, oem pin offset,  and were designed to replace an OEM piston. They were listed in the old TRW and Sealed Power catalogs by OEM application, you would look up the year and engine in the TRW/Sealed Power catalog, and they would list all the parts they made for that application across the page, lifters, bearings, pistons, rings, ect. They were available for pretty much any domestic engine, and honestly, if you used them properly, they were a pretty damned good piston for the price. I'd way rather have them than a goddam hyper, that collapses the ring lands at the first hint of detonation, and fails catastrophically when it fails. I still use them a LOT, and often pick them up good used or NOS for around $100-$150 a set for chevies and small block fords, a little more for FE or BB Mopar. When I first started building motors, if you went to a cruise night or a bracket night or street race, that was what would be in about 98% of the motors there.
 There were also the so-called TRW "racing pistons, which were also sold under the old "Speed-Pro" label, and also Manley and Duffys sold pistons based on the same basic forging, but with slightly different machining. In the case of TRW, these were actually listed in a separate "racing pistons" catalog. These pistons were machined for 1/16 rings instead of 5/64, had drilled oil ring lands rather than slotted, centered pins, most numbers also had floating rather than pressed pins and the majority of applications were domed. A lot of these part #'s could even be ordered without ring grooves and an unfinished dome, so hard-core racers could finish them the way they wanted. These pistons were also designed to run at typical "race piston" clearances. Some of them could even be ordered with grooves pre-cut for head-land or dykes rings, and they didn't weigh the same as OEM pistons, so required balancing. They are a COMPLETELY different deal than the OEM replacement pistons, I know, because I made my living selling all this shit in the late seventies/early eighties. These pistons were also only available for a fairly limited range of engines, compression ratios and pin heights, especially if you raced anything other than a chevy. These ran about $100 more than the OEM replacement line, but to give an example, in the early eighties there were only two FE pistons in this line, a std bore 12/1 428 piston, and a +030 12/1 428 piston.  Any other FE? Forget about it, it was get something from the "OEM" line, or Venolia/Arias.
At that time, you didn't have the myriad of different aftermarket piston manufacturers like you do now, and the price leap between a OEM replacement TRW/Sealed Power piston and a true race piston, like a Venolia or Arias was profound, we are talking the difference (in Canada, were I am) between $200-$250, and $700-$800. there were no mid-priced race piston makers like RaceTec, SRP or Ross, there were the OEM replacement pistons, there was the limited range of TRW/Manley/Speed-Pro "race" pistons, mostly for chevies, and there was the custom race piston, like Arias, Venolia or BRC. So most of us learned how to use the OEM replacement pistons in the vast majority of engines we built, and make them work. And we sure as hell didn't do it by doing things like running them at 4 times the recommended wall clearance. ::) But hell, its not my motor, I don't have any skin in the game, so....
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 06:31:46 PM by falcongeorge »

66FAIRLANE

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 10:01:34 PM »
Thanks falcongeorge for all of your input. There would have had to be some pretty compelling arguments (known typo etc.) for me to go against the sheet that came with the pistons. But my machine shop guy said he had been bit before by people coming in and demanding tight clearances on forged pistons only to be blamed when they locked up. He was still surprised after I produced the sheet but will go with .002. I really do appreciate the input & knowledge on this forum.

My427stang

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2019, 05:49:55 AM »
I think you are on the right track

- Instructions came in the box
- Modern L2291s are run tight like that
- 20 years ago wasn't the 60s, is was 1999-2000, so these pistons aren't that old
- You are choosing the high side of the given spec

All sounds good

If your machinist is really concerned, I can't imagine .0025 -  .003 would rattle cold, a .030 over 390 likely flexes more than that anyway
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Falcon67

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2019, 09:07:11 AM »
Per Falcongeorge - "L" in the catalog meant Forged Racing piston as I recall.  I sold a bunch of those too.  I have a set of 8 new L2249NF-30 popups for a 289/302 build.  ( and maybe someday I'll use them - he said since buying them in 1980). I still have a nice 1979 TRW Engine Parts catalog, I'll get some particulars on that L number tonight when I get time. 

falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2019, 09:33:04 AM »
Per Falcongeorge - "L" in the catalog meant Forged Racing piston as I recall.  I sold a bunch of those too.  I have a set of 8 new L2249NF-30 popups for a 289/302 build.  ( and maybe someday I'll use them - he said since buying them in 1980). I still have a nice 1979 TRW Engine Parts catalog, I'll get some particulars on that L number tonight when I get time.
I have TRW, Sealed Power and Speed-Pro catalogs from the late seventies too, theres a lot of very useful information in the TRW catalog especially.

falcongeorge

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Re: L-2291F Clearance?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2019, 09:49:45 AM »
Per Falcongeorge - "L" in the catalog meant Forged Racing piston as I recall.  I sold a bunch of those too.  I have a set of 8 new L2249NF-30 popups for a 289/302 build.  ( and maybe someday I'll use them - he said since buying them in 1980). I still have a nice 1979 TRW Engine Parts catalog, I'll get some particulars on that L number tonight when I get time.
some of the cast pistons in my catalog have the L prefix. The most consistant thing I have found is the cast pistons had a C as the first letter of the suffix after the number. The old TRW part numbering system is a little odd, and can be difficult to de-code. For instance, a Ford 400 piston, L2414F is forged, L2414CF is cast. Occasionally, you will also run across a number with an AF suffix, this is mostly on pistons dating back to the late fifties/early sixties, I'm not sure if those were forged or cast, maybe I can read the catalog and figure it out. For example, the piston listed for '61-'65 390s is L2143AF. Of course these haven't been made for decades, so theres probably not much point in calling your local NAPA and giving them that number. I was thinking last night about scanning a couple of pages of FE pistons and posting them, kinda help make this the "definitive FE TRW piston post".