Disaster!!! I am out for Dragweek

[AlanCasida]

I was doing some final prep today on the mustang and changed the oil. I decided to cut the oil filter open and I am glad I did (kind of). I found a bunch of copper/brass looking material in it. I pulled the distributor to see if it might have come from the gear but it looked perfect. So I am out.   

[jayb]

Boy, that sucks.  Looks like copper backing from one of the bearings.  Time to pull the pan and check the rods...

[AlanCasida]

I am glad I caught it when I did. I almost didn't change the oil since I only had about 400 miles and 11 passes on it. Then I almost didn't cut the filter open. But I noticed the last time I drove it the oil pressure was down some from it's normal so that kind of nagged at me. I think I will take a little break from it now.   

[428 GALAXIE]

What!!!!!
Oo man what a bummer.
Well I guess better this way than full qarnage at the strip.

[Bolted to Floor]

Man, that really sucks. But finding it now beats finding it on side of the raid somewhere!!

[Nightmist66]

Bummer! 

[machoneman]

Ouch!

Those look like pretty big pieces. I wonder if its from the thrust bearing as rod bearings usually produce finer particles. Ask me how I know this....................

[AlanCasida]

Ouch!

Those look like pretty big pieces. I wonder if its from the thrust bearing as rod bearings usually produce finer particles. Ask me how I know this....................

That is what I'm thinking, thrust bearing. it didn't knock or anything that would give me a hint something was wrong other than the oil pressure was some lower than normal when hot but I was driving it around in the heat more this year.

[falcongeorge]

Ouch!

Those look like pretty big pieces. I wonder if its from the thrust bearing as rod bearings usually produce finer particles. Ask me how I know this....................

my thoughts exactly, those are chunks. Lucky you cut the filter open, that's spooky looking.

[Stangman]

Sorry Alan, bummer for sure. I hope it’s not that bad. Was excited to follow you during dragweek.

[57 lima bean]

Have you compared to a new distributor gear?

[My427stang]

No noise?

Seems odd that much copper would be a wrist pin bushing, a blown our thrust bearing, or a regular bearing completely gone and make a lot of noise.

I'd be 100% sure that your bronze gear isn't the cause  (as you toss that junk in the trash anyway LOL)

Maybe check crank thrust from the bottom and see if there is a ton of it.  Loosen your belts and pry the balancer back and forth.

Not that that much getting through the motor is good, but you might get away with a good cleanup.

[AlanCasida]

The first thing I did was pull the distributor and check the gear. It shows a little wear but not enough to make that much debris and the color of the particles are more coppery looking than the gear too. Here is a pic comparing the gear to a new one.

[67428GT500]

I feel your pain. In and out two times in four months with a very expensive new paint job.  My hopes are that it hasn't done any heavy damage and is simple and inexpensive to correct.
                                                                   -Keith

[sixty9cobra]

Gulp. I just ordered a filter cutter. The last motor cost way to much. Good luck on finding the problem.

[My427stang]

The first thing I did was pull the distributor and check the gear. It shows a little wear but not enough to make that much debris and the color of the particles are more coppery looking than the gear too. Here is a pic comparing the gear to a new one.

Fair enough, that dark looks like rod bushing or maybe thrust? That stinks.  How about distributor bushing, does the block have one? 

No noises in the engine?  Seems like it would have made a racket if that much crap was bearing material

[blykins]

Bronze dist gears in Fords are a big no-no.  But when they fail, the shavings come off in little thin slivers.  You have bearing flakes unfortunately.  My guess is a spun rod bearing.

Sorry to see that.  Hate it for you.

[falcongeorge]

Bronze dist gears in Fords are a big no-no.  But when they fail, the shavings come off in little thin slivers.  You have bearing flakes unfortunately.  My guess is a spun rod bearing.

Sorry to see that.  Hate it for you.

I'm curious, why specifically in Fords?

[blykins]

Bronze dist gears in Fords are a big no-no.  But when they fail, the shavings come off in little thin slivers.  You have bearing flakes unfortunately.  My guess is a spun rod bearing.

Sorry to see that.  Hate it for you.

I'm curious, why specifically in Fords?

Poor choice of words on my part, I suppose.  I don't do many GM builds, but it seems like a bronze gear is the only choice for them when you go to a steel camshaft.  I'm not 100% on that, I just don't have much experience with them.   However, you will see that as a staple in the GM world and that's the first thing guys reach for when they use a billet camshaft and they seem to do pretty well.  Maybe it's because the install dimension isn't as critical???  Or maybe it's because of the gear shape?

Bronze gears just don't last long in a Ford engine, even with a very critical install dimension.  A couple of thousand miles and you see wear.   I understand that the cam companies want the distributor gear to wear before the cam gear, but if they would just sell the right materials, they wouldn't have any worries.   Steel cams get steel gears.   Iron cams get iron gears.  It's pretty easy.

[falcongeorge]

Bronze dist gears in Fords are a big no-no.  But when they fail, the shavings come off in little thin slivers.  You have bearing flakes unfortunately.  My guess is a spun rod bearing.

Sorry to see that.  Hate it for you.

I'm curious, why specifically in Fords?

Poor choice of words on my part, I suppose.  I don't do many GM builds, but it seems like a bronze gear is the only choice for them when you go to a steel camshaft.  I'm not 100% on that, I just don't have much experience with them.   However, you will see that as a staple in the GM world and that's the first thing guys reach for when they use a billet camshaft and they seem to do pretty well.  Maybe it's because the install dimension isn't as critical???  Or maybe it's because of the gear shape?

Bronze gears just don't last long in a Ford engine, even with a very critical install dimension.  A couple of thousand miles and you see wear.   I understand that the cam companies want the distributor gear to wear before the cam gear, but if they would just sell the right materials, they wouldn't have any worries.   Steel cams get steel gears.   Iron cams get iron gears.  It's pretty easy.

The same options are available for Chevys and Mopars as for Ford engines, that's why I was curious as to the way you had phrased it. I was wondering if there was something specific that you had figured out in regards to Fords with brass gears.
My experience is the brass gears don't hold up very well in Chevys either, but for many years brass was the only available option on a billet cam core, so you made do. I have run brass gears on the street in Chevys because at the time I was doing it, it was the only option on a steel billet roller, thankfully, there are more options now for everyone, whatever make you are running.

[blykins]

I have built a total of 8 Chevy engines and 3 Pontiacs.  Just don’t have the experience with them. 

[AlanCasida]

The 427/452 is back together(finally), in the car and running. I lit it off about an hour ago.  I ended up getting a Scat 428 crankshaft for it and my machine shop internally balancing the whole assembly. So far so good. Maybe THIS time I'll be ready for DW 2020. I don't know though, it's only 10 months away. 

[427mach1]

The 427/452 is back together(finally), in the car and running. I lit it off about an hour ago.  I ended up getting a Scat 428 crankshaft for it and my machine shop internally balancing the whole assembly. So far so good. Maybe THIS time I'll be ready for DW 2020. I don't know though, it's only 10 months away. 

What was determined to be the problem?

[AlanCasida]

The 427/452 is back together(finally), in the car and running. I lit it off about an hour ago.  I ended up getting a Scat 428 crankshaft for it and my machine shop internally balancing the whole assembly. So far so good. Maybe THIS time I'll be ready for DW 2020. I don't know though, it's only 10 months away. 

What was determined to be the problem?

As near as I could see, the torque converter was pushed out too far due to being machined wrong(or missing a part of the machining process) and that caused the crankshaft to push against the thrust bearing.
 It wasn't by much but it was enough to wear a groove in the thrust surface of the crankshaft.
 When you look at a C6 torque converter there are two flat spots on the snout that engage the pump. At the back edge of those flat spots there is a chamfered area where it transitions back to the round surface. That chamfer was missing on my converter causing it to stick out further. Instead of having .125" clearance between the mounting pad of the converter and the flexplate(when assembled) it had less than .050". This may have been enough for the crank to grab the thrust bearing. That's what I hope anyway. 
 I just put that chamfer back in those spots using my disc sander and now I have .125" clearance.

[57 lima bean]

                            Good to hear Alan.I've wrecked stuff in the same manner more than once.
                            Thanks for the inspirational DW talk a few weeks back.We'll see what happens.

[cjshaker]

Good to hear, Alan. Nice job on figuring out what the cause was, because something that small would be easy to overlook.
My son and I will be participating in DW 2020 also. Although I'm not sure if I'll have the new engine in by then, I will be taking the Mustang again. Looking forward to seeing you again.

[Stangman]

Glad your all back together Alan.
Doug get that motor in there.

[AlanCasida]

Good to hear, Alan. Nice job on figuring out what the cause was, because something that small would be easy to overlook.
My son and I will be participating in DW 2020 also. Although I'm not sure if I'll have the new engine in by then, I will be taking the Mustang again. Looking forward to seeing you again.

Thanks, Doug. You don't know how close I came to pulling a "Dragweek, never say die" ploy. I had my 428CJ motor sitting in the corner and I was thinking I could swap the top end and cam and put it the car. If I hadn't decided to slow down and figure out what caused the problem I would have most likely had two damaged motors on my hands.