Milling heads

[JimNolan]

Jay or someone that knows,
     I've got to mill my C1AE-A  heads .024" to give me the 9.7 CR I'm needing. How much do I need to take off the head intake surface so the Streetmaster will fit properly ( or, do you think I even need to take anything off the intake surface). The Streetmaster has never been cut on and the C1AE-A heads ended up with 76cc's, so other than just cleanup of the surface, I'd say they haven't been cut on either.
  Now, I searched your book and I've been all over the internet getting information. I couldn't find anything in your book and the bad thing about the internet is, you get more than one answer.
  I need your advice. I'd like to have some idea of what I need before I take the heads to the machinest. Thanks, Jim PS  I rechecked the head CC's today and filled the chambers until it came out the hole in the glass, and it was 76cc's.

[Heo]

Half of what you mill from the head if my memmory is right
But at .024 i dont think you nead to take anything

[CaptCobrajet]

Jay or someone that knows,
     I've got to mill my C1AE-A  heads .024" to give me the 9.7 CR I'm needing. How much do I need to take off the head intake surface so the Streetmaster will fit properly ( or, do you think I even need to take anything off the intake surface). The Streetmaster has never been cut on and the C1AE-A heads ended up with 76cc's, so other than just cleanup of the surface, I'd say they haven't been cut on either.
  Now, I searched your book and I've been all over the internet getting information. I couldn't find anything in your book and the bad thing about the internet is, you get more than one answer.
  I need your advice. I'd like to have some idea of what I need before I take the heads to the machinest. Thanks, Jim PS  I rechecked the head CC's today and filled the chambers until it came out the hole in the glass, and it was 76cc's.

You really should mill the heads first, then put em on the engine..........torqued, and then fit the manifold.  The bolt holes and the VC rail could be anywhere..............a fit before you mill is the only way to do it.  Block deck, head gasket, and head milling all effect manifold fit.  I would mill my heads, and then set the intake on with no gaskets.  If it is too low, put the gaskets in.  If it is too high with gaskets, figure out what you need to do based on the gasket thickness, and you will hit it right on.  The bottom will probably not need anything at .025 off the heads, so you will only have to mill the flanges on the manifold.

[jayb]

Blair is right, test fit the manifold on the heads first.  I prefer to mill the intake surface of the head rather than the intake itself, but either way works.  If your manifold fits just fine now, before milling the heads, then take the same amount off the intake flange of the heads as you do off the deck surface, .024", and the intake will fit the same, but with a smaller gap between the bottom of the manifold and the block.

[JimNolan]

You really should mill the heads first, then put em on the engine..........torqued, and then fit the manifold.  The bolt holes and the VC rail could be anywhere..............a fit before you mill is the only way to do it.  Block deck, head gasket, and head milling all effect manifold fit.  I would mill my heads, and then set the intake on with no gaskets.  If it is too low, put the gaskets in.  If it is too high with gaskets, figure out what you need to do based on the gasket thickness, and you will hit it right on.  The bottom will probably not need anything at .025 off the heads, so you will only have to mill the flanges on the manifold.

You know. That sounds like the way to go. Jay's book had something about the rail too. I'll have to do more than skim over that section. Thanks, jim
   I've got an old set of gaskets, so tomorrow I'll see where it's at. That way I'll have a better idea of the fit AND the rail before I even start. Thanks guys.

[BruceS]

Hey Jim, some nice looking toys there!  Is that 63 Boxtop a 406?  Anything more to tell us about it?  Thanks

[Barry_R]

x3 on the mock up - its the only way to do it.

And do not be surprised to find that the intake needs to be milled "back to square" - more on one end or side than on the other.  We've seen every possible variation on these.  I think intakes tend to twist and warp once removed from the first installation.  Its the only way to explain the variances we regularly see.

[machoneman]

Maybe FE intakes are warped more readily during use due to the extreme size and mass of the casting? Comparing a 302 Windsor intake to an FE, I've wondered if this has more to do with your statement.

[JimNolan]

Hey Jim, some nice looking toys there!  Is that 63 Boxtop a 406?  Anything more to tell us about it?  Thanks

Bruce,
   It's a 396ci block with the 406 parts. The only thing that isn't a 385hp/406 is the block, cam and 1.73 rocker ratio. The cam was special made to replicate a 385/406 but in hydraulic format. The forged pistons I used gave me a 10.38 CR. I used maddog headers, Xpypes and 2.5" exhaust. The only thing firewall forward that isn't powercoated is the tye rods, ball joints and springs. I ended up with a 365HP engine (Dyno5). I don't know that I'd do it again. Finding the original 4V aluminum intake, grooved crank and 67cc heads with 2.03/1.65 valves was costly. Finding an original block in good shape is impossible. I got it finished at the first of the year and it's got about 10K miles on it now. 16 mpg @ 65-70mph with 2.75 Trac-Loc. Thanks

[JimNolan]

Guys,
   I got the intake mocked up today. Since I'm having .024" taken off the heads and I'm using .020" steel shim head gaskets, I just bolted the heads to the motor without a gasket. That put me within .004" from where it will sit eventually anyway. I bolted the intake on using the same intake gaskets I'll eventually use but old used ones. The intake rails were higher on all four cormers, front right = .031", rear right = .050, rear left = .021, front left = .050. I had the distributor installed when checking.
   Since I know I'm in the ball park and all the bolts fit, I'll go ahead and have the head work done. Then, I'll decide if I want to mill the intake rails on final fit.
   I talked to my machinest ( he's at a show in Indy now, he makes custom Rods for people all over the world that go in engines I've never heard of ) and he said he was planning on milling the heads, doing the pocket porting and installing the valves but the runners were just getting cleaned up at the first inch, exhaust and intake. The runner part I don't understand. My exhaust ports dump out into larger chambers on the headers and the intake runners dump into much larger intake ports on the heads. What would working on the runners accomplish. I could run two sets of Streetmaster intakes into the intake ports of the C1AE-A heads I've got. How the hell Jay got that much horsepower out of those little bitty intake runners on a Streetmaster is suspicious. LOL  PS  I forgot to put that the gap at the bottom front and back was .148", the cork gasket is .170". I think it'll be good.

[Heo]

well im no expert but i think on the C1heads the floor of
the intake port dont see so much flow and there is where
they are bigger than later heads. The flow hapens on
the roof side radius

[JimNolan]

After doing the math, given the intake surface of the head can be cut on a 1-1 bases as the deck surface. I surmize I can cut the intake side .025" and the deck side of the head .024", that will reduce the Streetmaster valve cover rail mismatch to .029". That way I won't have to cut the intake.     .029" shouldn't be that much of a detriment to misalignment. Especially if I use a cork valve cover gasket.

[427highriser]

what head gasket do you have? we tried the .020 one's  and wound up with around .030 on the crimped ones and around .033 on the doubled over ones??? jack

[JimNolan]

Jack,
    It's the MRG-1132G. Mr. Gasket .020 steel shim w/4.42" hole. I used them on the other engine also. I don't know if they are crimped or doubled over. Don't they make anything as advertised anymore. Looks like they could take a piece of metel, put 90 lbs of torque on it and mike what they had left and advertise it that way. You guys that do this all the time are a wealth of information.  Jim
PS.  Boy, I hope you're right about the head gaskets I'm using. That'd put me within .024" at the two highest points and near even at the other two.  That'd work for me.
   

[JimNolan]

I just alleviated the possibility of a warped Streetmaster intake. All it took was $359.95. I'll refigure the alignment in a few days. Jim

[427highriser]

sounds like you have the Fitzgeralds.the last one's we used came in at .033 compressed, that would put you at around .068 piston to head. they say .020 but we got different results. I don't think quench matters that much on a 9 to 1 motor ?? jack

[JimNolan]

Jack,
  I called Summit and gave them hell for advertising something that wasn't true. I looked up the Mr. Gasket website and they state that the compressed thickness of the 1132G is .030". That's OK. I'll live with that. I'll have the heads milled .030 to give me the 9.7CR / 7.64DCR, have the new valves installed and then set the heads on the block without gaskets and measure the fitment of the new intake then. Since the deck side and the intake sides are cut 1-1 on the heads, I should be able to minimize any futher screw-ups. The .062" quench I'll just have to live with. Thanks for pointing this out to me. It's hard when you don't know. This is a good forum for me. Jim

[hotrodfeguy]

My intake lost it's dog ears LOL And the ports were opened up to match the C1/LR ports But that is one fine intake either way. 

[JimNolan]

Guys,
    New intake came in today, really nice. I found out I really did have .030 deck height by using depth mikes on all four sides of piston. Hopefully that'll give me .060-.062" quench now. The heads were bolted down to the block without gasket and with the intake set in place and torqued, it gave me .008"/.009"/.008"/.009" intake high position on all four corners using the depth mikes. I'm milling .023" off the heads and that'll give me a pretty near flush valve cover rail without milling the intake side of the heads. The cam ended up being cut at 110/107 degrees. So I'm setting the ICL at 105 degrees so I'll end up with 9.58 CR / 7.6 DCR. With the big valves and 670 cfm Avenger the Desktop Dyno 5 says I'll be getting 389 HP at 5000 rpm / 477 ft. lbs at 3500 rpm. The problem I see is what am I going to do with 456 ft. lbs of torque at 2000 rpm, pull stumps I guess.
    It's a nice intake, I could have saved about $400.00 if I'd taken everyones advice on intakes to begin with. As long as I can cool this monstrasity I won't mind putting gas in it just to be able to drive it. Here's a couple smaller pics. Thanks everyone. Jim

[My427stang]

Jim did you end up having those heads ported?

[JimNolan]

As soon as he gets back home he should be calling me.  He has been busy with his shows. Hopefully it'll be next week. The valves are a must. There's @ ten horsepower in the intakes and @ 24 in the exhaust. It's worth the effort to make the heads flow better.

[hotrodfeguy]

And every one on the other site says too much cam kills the bottom end. Well look at what your DT-5 is saying at 2K Besides how many of us spend time down there driving our FE's really. Thats a awsome looking engine ya have there.

[My427stang]

As soon as he gets back home he should be calling me.  He has been busy with his shows. Hopefully it'll be next week. The valves are a must. There's @ ten horsepower in the intakes and @ 24 in the exhaust. It's worth the effort to make the heads flow better.

It is absolutely worth it.  I am not sure I agree with the exhaust valves helping that much, calculators tend to show a bigger benefit than what pan's out.  Intake flow is where it's at until the exhaust backs up, but having a good exhaust with a great flowing intake certainly is the goal.

Keep in mind, bigger valves without bowl work don't do much at all and really only get you new material for the valve seat