Bullocks Power Service 461 inch, all iron 68.5 CJ 515 HP, pump gas power brakes

[My427stang]

Performance Summary:
      Cubic Inches:    461    Dyno brand:  Stuska
      Power Adder:               Where dynoed:  Dale Meers Racing Engines
      Peak Horsepower:   515 @ 5800 (520 with dyno carb)
      Peak Torque:   530 @ 4500 (536 with dyno carb)

Horsepower and Torque Curves:

Will upload Monday or Tuesday

Engine Specifications:
   Block brand, material, finished bore size, other notes:  Factory C scratch 4.155 bore, squared, deck plate honed, 10.155 deck
     
   Crankshaft brand, cast or forged, stroke, journal size:  SCAT cast 4.25 stroke
     
   Connecting Rods brand, material, center to center distance, end sizes, bolts:  Scat I-beam, 6.70"

   Piston brand, material 4032 forged Autotec, 7.5cc reliefs, SCR 10.4:1, .005 above deck

   Main Bearings, Rod Bearings, Cam Bearings brand and size:  FM 125M, FM BBC uncoated, Durabond cam bearings

   Piston rings brand, size, other notes:  Hastings hi performance, standard tension 1.5mm/1.5mm/3.0 mm
 
   Oil Pump, pickup, and drive:  Melling HV, Milodon pickup, Doug Garifo drive

   Oil pan, windage tray, oil filter adapter:  Mildon deep sump, Ford windage tray, factory Ford oil filter adapter

   Camshaft brand, type (hyd/solid, flat tappet or roller), lift and duration (adv and @.050"):  Custom Comp Cams hydraulic roller, 237/237 @ .050", 114 LSA, 106 ICL, .634/.634

   Lifters brand, type:  Morel

   Timing chain and timing cover:  Cloyes billet, factory Ford cover

   Cylinder heads brand, material, port and chamber information:  Fomoco originl CJ with Craft CnC port, 83cc chamber

   Cylinder head flow in cfm at inches of lift (28" H2O pressure drop):

.200   149   113
.300   224   144
.400   271   175
.450   284   182
.500   292   190
.550   307   199
.600   314   204
      
4.155      
No pipe      


    Flow bench used, location:  Craft Racing

   Intake valve brand, head size, stem size:   SI stainless, 2.200", 11/32"

   Exhaust valve brand, head size, stem size:  SI stainless, 1.700", 11/32"
   
   Valve springs brand, part number, specs:   Comp Cams Beehive 26120,

   Retainers and locks brand, part number, specs:  Comp Cams Steel 795, locators 4696, locks 630

   Rocker arm brand, type (adjustable or non-adj), material, ratio:  Lykins non adjustable rollers

   Rocker shafts and stands, brand, material: Sealed Power replacement shafts, stock alum Ford stands with Doug Garifo end stands and studs

   Pushrods brand, type, length:  Trend custom

   Valve covers, brand, type:  Tony Branda repop PBF chrome

   Distributor brand, advance curve information:  Fomoco CJ resto by Tim O,Connor, Accel Points Eliminator , 36° total, by 2800

   Harmonic balancer brand:  Factory CJ rebuilt by Damper Docs

Water pump brand, type (mechanical or electric):  Ford

   Intake manifold brand, material, porting information:  Ported, iron CJ

   Carburetor(s) brand, type:  Quick Fuel 830 Brawler out of the box just jet change  (dyno carb was custom built 830 no choke)

   Exhaust manifolds or headers brand, type: Dyno headers

[My427stang]

By the way, what a fun dyno day.  Owner of the CJ, Danny, is a good buddy from VA, our own Brent is 1/2 way between the two of us, so we spun this one in Brent's neck of the woods and I spent a second half day hanging around with him

I was supposed to do 2 461s, but 105 heat index in Omaha and the heat traveling east with only one good day to put them on the pump, I only brought one. Good thing too, because after some fighting with an AED resto carb, we ended up with the CJ in the bed of Danny's truck at about 2 PM and pretty much spent. Last thing I would have wanted to do is start a second one in that heat at that time.  The nice thing was the dyno couldn't have gone easier other than the carb which we swapped out and starting hitting all the numbers

Looks like we may do this again, I have more to do, good way to BS in person and helps me with some East Coast builds I have scheduled.
   

[Drew Pojedinec]

Awesome build. Two questions:

-What was wrong with the AED carb?
-Did you do a dyno test with it to see the difference in power?

[427LX]

What number beehive spring was used?   Looks like a nice strong "sleeper" 428 CJ!

[My427stang]

Awesome build. Two questions:

-What was wrong with the AED carb?
-Did you do a dyno test with it to see the difference in power?

Drew, it acted ugly and we didn't go back to it.  We should have but it would have needed some attention.

First it was scary lean, did a pull and it started to runaway lean so we stopped, 335 HP at about 4000 rpm,  we ended up jetting it to 74 primary and 82 secondary and it was still lean, but gained 50 hp.  On top of that, the idle circuit needed work, I was 2 turns out, it richened up, so I figured open the IFR, but after jetting, it was lean again, like 15:1. 

It was hot and we swapped an out of the box 830 on it and jumped to 500+, and we didn't go back, we should have.

I think the IFR just needed opening and I also think that maybe the transfer tube and very small bowl fittings, or even the filter, couldn't feed both bowls, because jumping as many jets as we did, it should have gotten real fat.

Regardless, I think it was too small, but it would have been nice to dial it in and compare it to the bigger carb.

What number beehive spring was used?   Looks like a nice strong "sleeper" 428 CJ!

Springs - Comp 26120
Retainers - Comp 795
Locators (cups) - 4696
Keepers - 630

It should do real well in the car, didn't miss a beat to 6200

[chilly460]

 Very cool build with the iron topend, and close to the rpm range I want with my 462” so very relevant.   CNC program is the way to go on the iron heads if they’re still charging only $400 like they were on the C8 stuff. 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Weird. Normally CJ carbs are pretty decent as is. Agreed it is small for what you are working with.

If ya get bored, send it to me and I’ll play with it.

[My427stang]

Very cool build with the iron topend, and close to the rpm range I want with my 462” so very relevant.   CNC program is the way to go on the iron heads if they’re still charging only $400 like they were on the C8 stuff.

The intake has a LOT of work too, but I agree, the CnC port is nice if you can live with a big port volume.

FYI - Note the 114 LSA, not standard but completely intended, if you don't have a vacuum requirement, you could tighten it up a little

ON EDIT: Here are two videos, sorry about the quality, sound is good at least

https://youtu.be/GE9hTD0CfrI

https://youtu.be/lHYvSy4YoQA (save yourself from warm up, scroll to 1 minute point) 

[chilly460]

Yep, I saw it, figured that may have contributed to the 6000 peak, with a 237* intake I’d have figured 5700-5800 in a 462 with a more conventional 108-110*. 

[427LX]

26120 is a good spring and used them on my 427 Windsor build with hyd. roller After 4 years I swapped them out
for the similar PAC version.

[6667fan]

Wondering what a split duration cam would do with those heads. The intake/exhaust ratio is .65
I don’t have a theory, looking for opinions.
Was the fuel type indicated?

Nice build,
JB

[My427stang]

Wondering what a split duration cam would do with those heads. The intake/exhaust ratio is .65
I don’t have a theory, looking for opinions.
Was the fuel type indicated?

Nice build,
JB

We tossed it around, but I needed to manage the overlap for the vacuum and was leery to spread the centers more.  With no pipe I think the flow numbers work out better in operation than they look in that list. 

Pump gas, 93 in the fuel cell, but will likely run easily on 91 or less

[My427stang]

[rockhouse66]

Geez!  You must be losing 10 HP driving the oil pump at those pressures!   

[67428GT500]

I see your HV pump was pulling over 80 lbs too. I thought there might be someting wrong with mine. It pulls almost what it did with the 427 pink spring change I had in the other. 100lbs cold.

[My427stang]

Geez!  You must be losing 10 HP driving the oil pump at those pressures!   

Maybe, to be honest I didn't expect it to be that high.  Clearances aren't loose by any means, not a lot of restriction with pushrod oiling and reasonably restricted rockers, plus its 10w30.   

You bring up a great point though, we didn't go too fussy on the pulls, got A/F right with a single jet swap on the 515 hp run, and tried a little timing along the way, but in the end, we probably could have pulled some her numbers with a thin oil swap, some temperature games, and some additional tuning, but this is set up conservative, turn the key and go.

[mbrunson427]

Ross, there's a local circle track guy here in Greeley CO that clearances, times, and sets up the spring pressure on Melling pumps. Next time you build an engine I can send one of his oil pumps to you and see if you like it. He has a "pump dyno", aka a drill, a pressure gauge, and a bucket of oil that he verifies all pumps on.

I've torn apart his pumps to figure out what the heck he does. I understand it now, but I still have him do them anyways.

[My427stang]

Ross, there's a local circle track guy here in Greeley CO that clearances, times, and sets up the spring pressure on Melling pumps. Next time you build an engine I can send one of his oil pumps to you and see if you like it. He has a "pump dyno", aka a drill, a pressure gauge, and a bucket of oil that he verifies all pumps on.

I've torn apart his pumps to figure out what the heck he does. I understand it now, but I still have him do them anyways.

Thanks, sounds interesting.  I think I'd like to do an HV pump with a standard spring.  Keep the idle pressure up with the peak a little lower

[blykins]

What a nice piece.  You need to put up some pics of it, Ross.

And let me tell you, a dyno experience is much more enjoyable when it's not your baby sitting on the mounts. 

[My427stang]

Realized I didn't reply, thanks, was a blast and the next one is only a couple months away, this time it should be cool enough to do my truck motor too!

Some pics

Color wasn't nearly as bright as it looks, was painted in the correct color with flattening agent, camera flashed on me making it look a little bright



Here it is on the dyno, me on the right, Brent on the left, after giving up on the CJ carb LOL



Here is another on on the dyno after a couple good hero runs



Stay tuned, this one (if I don't get lazy and just drop it in)  ....  and a TFS headed resto-disguised hero coming up next

[Sand hauler]

Very cool build, and real nice work on both

[falcongeorge]

Those are some solid flow numbers for a CJ style port.

[bobb428]

I want to see it in the car!

[My427stang]

I want to see it in the car!

I imagine it will be at every CJ meet it can attend next year, along with it's slightly more burly twin from North Carolina.  That one hits the pump in November....

It's getting closer to the car at least!  Got there from Nebraska via Kentucky to the east coast

[rockhouse66]

I saw both the car and the engine on Friday.  Both look outstanding!  Will be awesome to see it hit the road.

[447 Stroker]

Ross,

Do you have a build thread? Asking because I am wondering what all modifications were needed to make the FE fit. Love the car!

Zach

[Joe-JDC]

The '67-'70 Mustangs came from Ford with FE as options.  Bolt right in with proper motor mounts, exhaust system.  Weak shock towers in small block car or six cylinder cars can be modified for heavier FE.  Need C-6/4speed cross member, drive shaft, and highly recommended N case 9 inch with 31 spline axles.  Springs front and rear.  All bolt in.  Joe-JDC

[447 Stroker]

Thanks Joe!

[My427stang]

The '67-'70 Mustangs came from Ford with FE as options.  Bolt right in with proper motor mounts, exhaust system.  Weak shock towers in small block car or six cylinder cars can be modified for heavier FE.  Need C-6/4speed cross member, drive shaft, and highly recommended N case 9 inch with 31 spline axles.  Springs front and rear.  All bolt in.  Joe-JDC

Joe is exactly right, but in this case it isn't a modified car, the car in the picture is an original 4.30 4 speed Cobra Jet Coupe.  Very limited numbers.  The engine on the stand today is for a sister car, another original 68.5 4 speed CJ Coupe, a little different gearing and C-stripe, but basically it's twin

My 489 inch FE is in my 70 Fastback, we did all the things Joe mentioned and more to tighten it up as it came with a 302/C-4 combo.  Ultimately for 67-70 it's a bolt in though, because they came originally with 390s and 428s

[My427stang]

I saw both the car and the engine on Friday.  Both look outstanding!  Will be awesome to see it hit the road.

Jealous I missed the party!  Of course Danny not only has a man-cave we'd all be jealous of, but he clearly wears the pants of the family because he took over the main garage too!

[mbrunson427]

Ross, here's our '67 Mustang. Looks like the "slightly older brother" to that car! It's not all that common to find a coupe with the GT package and the hot engine. My grandpa opted for the coupe because the back seat has more space than the fastback. Used to ride around with my grandma in the passenger seat and 3-4 kids in the back seat, daily driver. Imagine that.

[My427stang]

Sorry I missed this one, great car and great history!

[WerbyFord]

Ross,
I just caught up with this thread.
Beautiful "sleeper" 428CJ, all it needs is a Thermactor to look stock. Well, and iron exhaust and an IMCO snorkel (yuck).

Do you have any dimensions or pictures of the dyno headers & exhaust?

[My427stang]

Werby, 2 inch, unknown length, same headers as Brent's.  Nov 15, will be spinning another one and can measure

[Gregwill16]

Ross,
What is the plans for exhaust on the car? I'm trying to decide which direction to go with a similar combo. I was thinking you had 3" on your car but that is probably overkill for my combo.

[My427stang]

Ceramic coated 6114s and a mandrel bent 3 inch. Should breathe deep

[Gregwill16]

Okay thanks. Will it be a kit exhaust system or custom bent?

[My427stang]

I am not sure what he plans to use.  I like to weld up my own but my guess is he will get a kit and tweak it to what he wants. Wish I had more info but the engine and car is 1200 miles away now.

[Gregwill16]

Okay thanks Ross!