Author Topic: I broke my toy in Detroit!!! Updated Jan 2020  (Read 14229 times)

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My427stang

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2019, 06:19:58 AM »
Any chance that was an irrigation motor crank?  They run 8-10 groove pulleys,  I used to see some broken when they were more plentiful.  Likely because the belts were overtightened. (not saying your belts were too tight, but they were all loaded one direction in original use)

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2019, 06:54:50 AM »
I have a 390 crank at home I will not use as the hollows for the rod journals are way off centre & there is not a lot of metal left in the corner between the radius and air.

I have seen an aftermarket 428 forging where that dimension was scary thin - under .100

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2019, 11:00:36 AM »
Wow, my condolences to all who suffered the carnage in this thread... OP in particular, very nice car on a nice road trip... you’re taking it better than most...

Might as well make it a 445...  ;D

Thanks, I’m doing OK. I’m not a big drinker, but there were several over the next few evenings!!! A 445 is really tempting and I have already been cautioned about “upgrades”.  ::)
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2019, 11:02:00 AM »
428 IUB crank with a lot of drag strip passes. Engine was still running.


I wish I could have been so lucky.
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2019, 11:05:56 AM »
Barry, I’m hoping to get out on the cheaper side, but will post some more pictures when it’s all apart.

Ross, I pulled this crank out of a 410 years ago. That motor looked to be original to the car and never touched. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t a transplant at some point.
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

67xr7cat

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2019, 11:58:41 AM »
I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.
Was that Al Liest's shop in San Mateo?

No Medford Speed Shop
In NJ

fairlanegt427

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2019, 10:17:15 AM »
after reading this post.  i have a question.  probably not related but how did the cam look?   I have had one of those break and lock everything up just doing a burnout at the strip.   it was like the key was turned off.

67428GT500

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2019, 03:57:14 PM »
I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.
Was that Al Liest's shop in San Mateo?

WCH Engines in Waxahatchie Texas screwed the block up. What complicated matters is after they sleeved #6 I asked for full mag, pressure check and sonic to verify all was well.
I drove it 150 miles before #4 cracked. 
As you're well aware just replacing all the bearings, gaskets and rings on an FE is about 600.00, not to mention the 300.00 in machine work.

I think someone also misinterpreted my statement about the Chevy guy. He almost exclusively does Chevy work. If he had consulted the manual he wouldn't have mistaken which bank #1 was on.   It's the fact that after asking for a copy a dozen times of the sonic it never was provided. So it wasn't done and cost me another set of bearings, gaskets and rings.

I found a great machinist in North Arlington Texas. Charles Eller.  Very competent and the FE is a specialty for him. He is meticulous not only with work, but the organization and cleanliness of the shop itself.

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2019, 04:32:15 PM »
after reading this post.  i have a question.  probably not related but how did the cam look?   I have had one of those break and lock everything up just doing a burnout at the strip.   it was like the key was turned off.

The engine is still in the car. Pulling the pan showed enough damage that I will pull it before I tear it down any farther.
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

fairlanegt427

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2019, 09:31:04 AM »
i forgot to add that the car felt like a little bit of a shake . like you were saying.  i thought low tire also.  motor would turn 1/2 turn and that was it.   just thinking if it maybe bound up timing gears enough to break front of crank.   just me thinking too much.   i definitely feel your pain. 

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2019, 10:19:04 AM »
Thanks.
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

Bolted to Floor

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!! Updated Jan 2, 2020
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2020, 12:19:21 AM »
Well…. it’s been busted since June and life has finally slowed so I could get the motor out of the car and torn apart.

For what I see, I think there was a crack in the crank for some amount of time prior to it breaking. The only measurement I took on disassemble was for end play, it was .010. I want to say it was within the .008 spec when I assembled it, going from memory only at this time. Main bearing number 2 looks really bad and the bearing does not sit right in the block or cap. Same goes for #2 rod. I have pics of the other rods if anyone is interested. Not sure what to make of all this.

Prior to the break, it had enough blow by that the dipstick was pushed out each time I lifted the hood. I really expected to find busted rings, but I didn’t. I can’t tell you anything about the rings other than they were there! None were stuck in the grove when they came out of the block. This was a .060 over block when I got it and I have serious doubts that a torque plate was used when ever it got bored.


Cylinder 1 by

Cylinder 1 by

Cylinder 5 by

Cylinder 5 by


It appears that pistons 1 and 5 kissed the head. There is a small mark on the head for #5. I don’t see any damage otherwise, but I will get the heads checked out.

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Cylinders 5 to 8

#1 by

#1 rod

Number 1 rod by

#1 rod

Number one rod by

#1 rod

Number five rod by

#5 Rod

Number five rod by JOHN DIXON, on Flickr

#5 Rod

Number two Rod by

#2 Rod

Number two Rod by

#2 Rod

Number two Rod by

#2 Rod

Number two Rod by

#2 Rod

Number two piston by

#2 Piston

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#2 Main and Thrust bearing

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#2 Main

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Number two main bearing by

Number two main bearing by

Would this be considered Fretting?

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I am worried about the roller cam. What’s seen in the pictures won’t wipe off. There is a difference in the surface finish when you drag a fingernail across, but it’s not enough to catch on. Is this normal wear for a roller?

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It’s the same set of rollers from 3 angles.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Especially if it will help to avoid a repeat on the next build.
John D -- 67 Mustang 390 5 speed

cjshaker

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!!
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2020, 01:44:33 AM »
It looks to me like the crack started at the journal radius adjacent to the oil hole drilled for the rod journals, proceeded to expand to the oil passage, then let the whole thing split. Hard to say if the crack was already there, or if it appeared after the machining. Some detailed shots of the rod journal radius might help some of the engine guys determine if it was correctly machined. Either way, that oil passage is closer to the journal surface than I imagined. I can see where taking too much off the crank journal, or offset grinding, could weaken that area quickly.

Judging by the shiny spots on the backsides of the bearings, and the bearings themselves, I'd say it looks like the crank was starting to go out of balance for some time before it let go. Those bearings were certainly getting pounded, and they seem to coincide with the journals ahead of the cracked area, which has the least amount of stabilization and also has belt tension pulling on the snout.

Nothing looks damaged bad, and a good check might show the block, heads and possibly even the rods to still be good. I'd be more worried about the rods than the block, but I'd still get it checked and pressure tested, paying special attention to the mains webbing and bolt holes for cracks. The cam journal surface and roller wheels look marred from bearing debris, but not bad. I don't know about rollers, maybe it can be re-polished? The lifters would need rebuilt at the least, I'd think.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
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c-reed

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Hey Bolted to the Floor
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2020, 07:32:23 PM »
Sorry about your misfortune, but a question for you. Do you know the brand of that camshaft? I bought a  used cam a while back and the only marking on it is in the same place as yours and just trying to figure out who made it. Thanks

FirstEliminator

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Re: I broke my toy in Detroit!!! Updated Jan 2020
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2020, 10:25:10 PM »
Darn, that's a bummer to be on a pleasure trip and break down cutting the trip short. All in all, a crank failure is way better than a collision.   Will this be ready for Beaver Springs?
Mark
Berkshire Transmissions
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