I broke my toy in Detroit!!! Updated Jan 2020

[Bolted to Floor]

Ok guys, we the car to the Mustang Steve Bash in Clinton Michigan and made it up with no issues. We are now in Detroit!! Had just shifted back into 5th gear around 50. The car started to shake, I thought a tire came apart. I pushed in the clutch and headed for the side of the road. On the way to the shoulder the engine died. Did a walk around on the side of the road, all tires are good. Under the hood, all looks as it should. Try to start the car, it does not want to turn over. 
After a wrecker ride to the nearest hotel, I start looking for the cause.
No water in the oil.
No loss of coolant in radiator.
Pull valve covers, push rods look like they are supposed to, nothing appears bent or out of place.




Pulled the spark plugs, they appear ok to me. 

1-4 right to left


5-8 top to bottom

Use the ignition to spin the motor over. It goes about a turn and a half then stops. Hit the key again, and it spins even less and stops. Popped the distributor cap to look at rotor, it turns as the motor turns.
Loosened all belts, the water pump and all accessories spin freely. No improvement to length of time engine will spin over.
I used a long ratchet on the harmonic balancer bolt, it was all I could do to get it to rotate a small amount.
 
Took a picture through the hole in Scatter shield of clutch and TO bearing. It looks like it should.


I don’t have an oil pressure gauge, it hadn’t made it high enough on my priority list.

I have looked at all I can think of and went about as far as I can without draining the oil, have I missed anything? Thoughts?

I have a bad feeling about a spun bearing or something worse.

.060 390 block with 3.98 crank, about 9.5 compression on cast pistons, hydraulic roller cam, RPM intake.

[Bolted to Floor]

Short video.   . My wife waited for a 3 count between attempts.

https://youtu.be/A514V_g9vh0

[67428GT500]

Were the plugs out when you turned it over?
                                              -Keith

[WConley]

I'm afraid something bad happened to your oil supply (based upon how dry it is under the valve covers in the video) 

The oil pump could have seized and twisted up the drive shaft, or the pickup side could have lost its seal.  It does indeed act like burned up bottom end bearings. 

I hope I'm wrong and it's an easier fix 

[67428GT500]

That doesn't look dry at all. Look at the returns. I have .075 restrictors in the supply for the rockers. I also have enlarged the returns. Everything is wet and there is a puddle of oil sitting in the returns on the end. He didn't mention anything about a knock or unusual lifter noise. However, you may be right.  All but one plug looked pretty damn good. Makes me wonder about hydraulic lock up and a bent rod.  He can pick up an electric drill and a cheap  10" 1/4" extension and a 1/4" socket and put it on the pump shaft, spin it and see if he gets oil up to the top end. I personally would NEVER be without an oil pressure gauge. We know how things go with an FE.
I sure the hell hope it turns out to be something stupid like a starter.  I feel his frustration after pulling my engine out three times around a 16,000 paint job because of piss poor machine work.
                                                                                   -Keith

[Bolted to Floor]

Were the plugs out when you turned it over?
                                              -Keith

Yes

[Bolted to Floor]

I'm afraid something bad happened to your oil supply (based upon how dry it is under the valve covers in the video) 

The oil pump could have seized and twisted up the drive shaft, or the pickup side could have lost its seal.  It does indeed act like burned up bottom end bearings. 

I hope I'm wrong and it's an easier fix 

I hadn’t thought about the oil supply issues. The heads do have oil restrictors and it sat for close to 2 hours before I tried to turn it over. And now that you mention it, the oil wasn’t spilling off of the head when I pulled the valve cover.

[Bolted to Floor]

That doesn't look dry at all. Look at the returns. I have .075 restrictors in the supply for the rockers. I also have enlarged the returns. Everything is wet and there is a puddle of oil sitting in the returns on the end. He didn't mention anything about a knock or unusual lifter noise. However, you may be right.  All but one plug looked pretty damn good. Makes me wonder about hydraulic lock up and a bent rod.  He can pick up an electric drill and a cheap  10" 1/4" extension and a 1/4" socket and put it on the pump shaft, spin it and see if he gets oil up to the top end. I personally would NEVER be without an oil pressure gauge. We know how things go with an FE.
I sure the hell hope it turns out to be something stupid like a starter.  I feel his frustration after pulling my engine out three times around a 16,000 paint job because of piss poor machine work.
                                                                                   -Keith

Keith this all happened in what seemed like 4-7 seconds. The car shaking took my attention, a knock could have been mixed in there that just didn’t register in my ears.

I will check the distributor to make sure whatever cylinder it’s pointing at is up top to fire. A sheared pin is the only other thing that has come to mind.

Not looking forward to pulling the motor back out either. It will give me a chance to dimple the header tube that’s making contact with the idler arm bolt!!

[BattlestarGalactic]

Have you put your finger over every plug hole to make sure you have compression in every cylinder?

Seems strange, but if you can't turn it by hand, then it's bad situation.

[Falcon67]

Have you put your finger over every plug hole to make sure you have compression in every cylinder?

Seems strange, but if you can't turn it by hand, then it's bad situation.

From his description he can't turn it enough to do anything.  If it was mine, I'd truck it back to the barn and get the engine up on a stand.  If the battery is fresh and the starter decent, it sure sounds bound up somewhere.  At the very least put a drill driver on the oil pump and see if it has oil pressure.  If you can spin the pump and no pressure, there's the thing.  If you have good oil pressure then not sure.  Not being able to turn the motor over with a breaker bar and the plugs out says loss of oil to me. 

[shady]

I had a .060 over 390 do that. Block broke through in a cylinder and hydro locked the motor. I was amazed at how thin the cyl. walls were at .060.

[Falcon67]

Same on a 351C but pulling the plugs let me know ASAP that's what the deal was. 

Sometimes during tear down, things just sort of jump out at you.

[gregb]

How much voltage does that battery have?  What's all that extra stuff hooked to the positive terminal?  I'd do as has been suggested, pull the distributor and use a drill to see if there is pressure. 

[GerryP]

I cranks like it is suffering a hydraulic, but given you've tried with the plugs out, that can't be it.  I would have to go with piston(s) seizing in the bore.  If it was a bottom end issue, you probably would have heard the knocking well before.  As to the causes; detonation, overheating, inadequate piston to wall, tight rings.

[Joe-JDC]

In your first statement, you say the car started to shake and you thought a tire had come apart.  Something had to cause the imbalance, and in my experience that was a broken rod that did not show up until I pulled a head and a piston didn't move.  The rod broke in two places and the big end stayed on the crankshaft, but the piston was held in place at the top of the bore and the engine shook like it had a plug wire off.  The engine would start and run, but was down on power, running on 7 cylinders.  Joe-JDC

[BattlestarGalactic]

^^Friend lost a 427 like that many moons ago.  Piston stayed at TDC, the rest hung on and didn't hurt a thing.

[turbohunter]

Why is the ac belt loose?

[1968galaxie]

I looked at the 2 cylinder head pics.
It looks like all of the rocker arms are at the same position - like no valves are open.
I would expect to see open and closed valves.
Looks weird to me.

Good luck diagnosing issue.

[GerryP]

Y'all really need to look at his video.  Valves move.  Engine cranks REAL hard like a dead battery.  But keep in mind that he wasn't able to rotate the engine from the dampener bolt, so it really is turning hard.

[Bolted to Floor]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I wiped the dipstick on a clean paper towel three times and found a few small shavings.



Secured a Uhaul trailer and working on a truck, some are due back today.

I loosened the belts to make sure accessories weren't the problem.

[BruceS]

John, sorry to hear of your toy breaking. I'm sure you'll get it figured out, and it's a long tow home!

[Stangman]

Hey John sorry to hear about your problem. So no other vibrations except for 4-7 seconds worth. Have you had good oil pressure all along, what’s it been hot.

[67428GT500]

I really feel for him and the loss of a new engine. I just had to pull mine three times. Thanks to a Chebby machinist.  So, I essentially started over again. I am disgusted and the fact He wouldn't pay for his mistake will likely land him in court. Charles Eller showed me why and what happened. If you can't understand
how to read a sonic report then perhaps you shouldn't be in the engine building business.  His mistake cost me almost 4K.

                                                                                    -Keith

[winr1]

Around 1970, my Brothers 390 in his 67 Mustang suddenly locked up idling

He pulled the pan and replaced the inserts, locked up again idling

Pulled the mill and tore it down, after head scratching, I pulled the main inserts and torqued the main caps down

The front main had a crack that opened up when the cap was torqued down
..............................................................................

Possibly a stacked rod or main insert ??

Have seen a few buy cant remember if the mill was locked up completely ...


Best wishes on something not costly




Ricky.

[Bolted to Floor]

Well….. We finally made home on Friday, after stopping to see some sites along the way.



We passed on any food they sold….to many references to “Thanks for picking Uranus” and other off color comments!!

I got the pan off. I was really expecting to see a busted rod. Instead, the crank is broke!!! It has a new parting line on the throw between the 1st and 2nd mains closer to main #2, pistons 1 & 5. Both of those pistons have touched the crank in some manner and it looks like one of the rods may have touched the block. I couldn’t tell much looking at the throw for pistons 2 & 6.













 
I pulled that crank out of a 410 Mercury motor from a big 4 door land barge in Pick-A-Part around 1990, then moved it from house to house over the years with all of the other parts. In 2016, it got checked for cracks before it was turned under .010 for install. Now if I could understand why it broke like it did.

Is this a common location for a break?

What is the consensus for harvesting parts from the short block?

Now, I’m content to let it sit for a bit while I catch up on things around the house

[TomP]

Wow, that sucks. Never seen one broken there. Hope the block and rods are OK.

It looks like Uranus is a popular place. It looks like they pack fudge too. 

[Joe-JDC]

Well, that is an eye opener, and sorry for your troubles.  Personally, I would start fresh with a different block, double/triple check those rods, and find a new crankshaft and new pistons and rings, etc.  You will always have doubts if you do try to re-use that block.  Joe-JDC

[67xr7cat]

hard to say for sure with it all together, but bet that crack started at the rod pin. Is common when the crank is ground that not enough radius is ground where the journal meets the side. Is why on performance bearings they have extra relief as cranks ground for performance use usually have a bigger radius for strength. Is also possible the #2 main cap is loose too, but I doubt it.

I'd have the block webbing checked real good for cracks and the rods checked for a bent condition. Good luck with it. Steve

[67428GT500]

I am really sorry to see this. I had a cylinder split and had to pull it out twice with a fresh 16K paint job. I got about 390 miles on it.
It's aggravating and expensive just for a full tear down, inspection and to replace bearings and gaskets and rings.

I have a question, only because I ran into this with the reciprocating assembly.  I noted you have Eagle/Scat rods but you ran cat pistons?
Did you have the assembly balanced? if so, how well is the shop known in the FE community?
Most of my issues have boiled down to a presumptive machinist who is a brand X guy and arrogant at that. He actually offset bored the block backward by assuming brand X and ford had the same bank numbering.  I can't expound on how important it is to know your machinist, his knowledge and his limits.

I hope most of the assembly is salvageable and you can get back on the road and enjoy your vehicle soon.  P.S. Here I thought it was safe to bend over and pick up my wallet in Missouri. I guess it's like San Francisco. If you drop anything, kick it to a safe corner and back into said corner before picking it up!
                                                                            -Keith

[67xr7cat]

I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.

[410bruce]

Wow! I've never seen a crank in anything let go right there. Sorry for your misfortune.

I think I'd have a difficult time buying food from a place called Uranus.  It is quite humorous, though. 

[BattlestarGalactic]

Ugh.  Sorry to see this.  I feel your pain though. 

This was Memorial Weekend 2000.  Only had 50 passes on fresh rebuild.  Crank had been magged and was given a clean bill of health.  .010 under 428 crank.  Crank came out in FIVE pieces.  Granted it came apart at 6000 rpm.

I've heard of them letting go at idle.  Friend lost his in the water box a few years back.  Luckily it just started sounding funny and he shut it off.  Nothing horrible hurt.  Just luck of the draw I suppose.

[Falcon67]

Guess I've been lucky here and have yet to lose a stock crank.  A 351C 4V I had (see the window cylinder picture) dropped a valve head at 3300 RPM on the freeway.  Blew out the cylinder, bent two rods, beat up one forged piston really bad, etc.  Washed the crank off, put it on a surface plate and it checked .0005 TIR.  It's in the 351C in the Falcon with about 3000 more rounds on it.  That one is a keeper. 

[410bruce]

Double wow!! Man, that's heart breaking BattlestarGalactic.  Completely destroyed 427 block.

Any idea why the crank came apart?

These instances are making me nervous about using my 410 crank. 

[BattlestarGalactic]

It was actually a 406 HP block.  It was .050 over, 3/4 filled, I put 427 caps on it.  Running a 1U crank.

Still no real thought on what came apart first and why.  I give full credit to the scat rods.  They hung on for dear life.  In the picture you can see that only one actually lost the head of the bolt, but never let go of the crank.  The mangled one really held on tight.

If you look at the block picture closely, #3-7 are hanging down a bit more then the rest.  That journal is also broke loose and just hanging there.  It broke at the thrust, the #3-4 journal, #4 main, #4-8 journal and the rear main.

After that, I would put about 4 yrs on a stock crank and replace it.  Then I bought a Scat cast 3.98 and ran it for about 4 yrs and then I bought a forged 4.25 and currently on 6th season.  No guarantees on anything, but I try to at least sway the odds in my favor.

Those main caps are currently on the 428 service block I run today.

I did my own machine work to install the caps.   The advantage at working at a machine shop with big equipment.

[67428GT500]

His claim was bank identification.  He's Schultz when it comes to the FE. I am tired of excuses and I'm right on it. Too many poor excuses for machinist.  Even good ones make mistakes. I was doing the prep on my new block post machine work. The front cam bearing oil slot is at the bottom of the cam bore and facing to the rear of the block.  I know the slot goes forward and should be at the 4 o'clock position. .

[Bolted to Floor]

Thanks for the condolences guys. 

Well, that is an eye opener, and sorry for your troubles.  Personally, I would start fresh with a different block, double/triple check those rods, and find a new crankshaft and new pistons and rings, etc.  You will always have doubts if you do try to re-use that block.  Joe-JDC

Joe, do you have doubts over the block since it looks like the rods and or crank may have hit the bottom of the cylinders and the damage that could have been caused that is not readily apparent?? I’m not opposed to replacing it, just trying to understand.

This is a .060 over block, I’m not real interested in buying 8 new pistons for it. 2 maybe, but it doesn’t seem like a good investment. I do have another block in the garage that’s .030 over, I think. 

Keith, I'm not looking forward to pulling the motor back out either, it took a long time to get that paint. The cast pistons stayed due to a budgeting decision in 2016. The motor started out as a rebuilt 390 long block in 2006 with truck pistons and no run time by an outfit that is no longer in business. When I finally learned that the 410 used the same piston, I opted to install the 3.98 crank. At that time, I upgraded to Eagle rods because the bushing on one of the factory rods was loose enough to slide it out by hand!! I guess all the work on that long block wasn’t up to spec.  And I kept the cast pistons. The assembly was balanced by Houston Engine and Balance here in town, he does great work and knows his way around FE's. I wish you a lot better luck with your build than you've had in the past.

A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.
 

I agree with this, but if a shop owner has a closed mind or ego that needs stroking, all bets are off. 

OK Larry, You win the award for most catastrophic failure in the thread!!!

I’ve start pricing new parts to get an idea of what it will take to put it back together and realize it won’t be real accurate till I get it out of the car and disassembled. Crank and rod prices were easy to find. What is the ball park price on a set of pistons in a nonstandard size? It will give me a place to start. I hate to bother folks with price checking when I won’t be ready for a month or two. This set back will delay my upgrade to the 2x4 intake by a year or so!!

[wayne]

Sorry for your bad luck i bought a boss 302 years ago it ran good oil pressure was ok but made a odd noise. When i tore it down the crank was broke at the number 2 main the cap was also broke. A friend of mine had a dodge box truck just driving at 50=55 it just started slowing down the crank broke at the rear main and they were both steel it just happens some times.

[thatdarncat]

428 IUB crank with a lot of drag strip passes. Engine was still running.

[RJP]

I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.

Was that Al Liest's shop in San Mateo?

[RJP]

To add:. The only time I've seen a Ford cast crank break at the #1/5 journal such as yours is when someone beat the harmonic balancer on with a hammer or if the engine came out of a wreck with severe front end damage [everything stuffed into the front of the engine] For example; A friend of a friend had a 400 Cleveland type Ford and beat the H/B on with a heavy hammer, crank lasted 11K miles before it broke in the same fashion as the one pictured here.

[DuckRyder]

Wow, my condolences to all who suffered the carnage in this thread... OP in particular, very nice car on a nice road trip... you’re taking it better than most...

Might as well make it a 445... 

[Barry_R]

I have not seen many factory 428 cranks break.  But we have magnufluxed several that had surface cracks showing up in the rod journal radius.  Usually they recheck OK after turning them to clear the crack (or we discard) but I imagine that if they did not recheck or if they missed the crack you would eventually get this result.  With a little luck you might get by with a new cracnk, balance, and some light touch up work.

[falcongeorge]

Guess I've been lucky here and have yet to lose a stock crank.  A 351C 4V I had (see the window cylinder picture) dropped a valve head at 3300 RPM on the freeway.  Blew out the cylinder, bent two rods, beat up one forged piston really bad, etc.  Washed the crank off, put it on a surface plate and it checked .0005 TIR.  It's in the 351C in the Falcon with about 3000 more rounds on it.  That one is a keeper.

Years ago, a friends wife broke one in a 283 Chevy. Funny thing was, the motor had been beat hard for about two decades, been through the hands of four other hot rod guys, almost since it was new. It was a four speed car, must have been about 100,000 wot 7000 rpm shifts on it, one night his wife came out from work, gently eased the clutch out just above idle to drive away, and the engine stalled, wouldn't start again. Pulled it apart, the crank was broken in front of the 3rd main journal. After all those decades of abuse, and it went out with a wimper instead of a bang. Poor little thing had just had enough I guess.

[66FAIRLANE]

I have a 390 crank at home I will not use as the hollows for the rod journals are way off centre & there is not a lot of metal left in the corner between the radius and air.

[My427stang]

Any chance that was an irrigation motor crank?  They run 8-10 groove pulleys,  I used to see some broken when they were more plentiful.  Likely because the belts were overtightened. (not saying your belts were too tight, but they were all loaded one direction in original use)

[Barry_R]

I have a 390 crank at home I will not use as the hollows for the rod journals are way off centre & there is not a lot of metal left in the corner between the radius and air.

I have seen an aftermarket 428 forging where that dimension was scary thin - under .100

[Bolted to Floor]

Wow, my condolences to all who suffered the carnage in this thread... OP in particular, very nice car on a nice road trip... you’re taking it better than most...

Might as well make it a 445... 

Thanks, I’m doing OK. I’m not a big drinker, but there were several over the next few evenings!!! A 445 is really tempting and I have already been cautioned about “upgrades”. 

[Bolted to Floor]

428 IUB crank with a lot of drag strip passes. Engine was still running.

I wish I could have been so lucky.

[Bolted to Floor]

Barry, I’m hoping to get out on the cheaper side, but will post some more pictures when it’s all apart.

Ross, I pulled this crank out of a 410 years ago. That motor looked to be original to the car and never touched. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t a transplant at some point.

[67xr7cat]

I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.

Was that Al Liest's shop in San Mateo?

No Medford Speed Shop
In NJ

[fairlanegt427]

after reading this post.  i have a question.  probably not related but how did the cam look?   I have had one of those break and lock everything up just doing a burnout at the strip.   it was like the key was turned off.

[67428GT500]

I will say Keith you have one thing right and that is to know what a shops abilities are. As for the rest I never bought into he is a chevy guy and can only work on chevy's. Every engine has its own oddities to know about, but some things don't change much. If  you cannot look at a sonic map and off set bore something correctly that is the fault of the guy doing it. You look at the map not offset #2 to the left. Is like the doctor cutting off the wrong leg.

I can say this I grow up around Fords, worked in a machine shop that bleed ford blue, built street to race and everything in between. They even put a set of Cleveland Hi port heads on a SBC block and raced it in a dirt modified. Don't ask why...

Built a lot of Chevy's, Some BOP, Mopars, Flat head fords, and farm tractor engines from 1920. A good shop can do it all and has the sense to ask and find out when needed. Boring cylinders and balancing crankshafts does not require an FE guru. Just a guy that knows his stuff, has the right equipment, and is interested in doing quality work.

Not the OP, but to answer about the balance question that Eagle rod is a good 40 or so grams heavier on the big end so that is adding 80+ grams to the bob weight. Short answer is that is way too much to not get the crank balanced.

Was that Al Liest's shop in San Mateo?

WCH Engines in Waxahatchie Texas screwed the block up. What complicated matters is after they sleeved #6 I asked for full mag, pressure check and sonic to verify all was well.
I drove it 150 miles before #4 cracked. 
As you're well aware just replacing all the bearings, gaskets and rings on an FE is about 600.00, not to mention the 300.00 in machine work.

I think someone also misinterpreted my statement about the Chevy guy. He almost exclusively does Chevy work. If he had consulted the manual he wouldn't have mistaken which bank #1 was on.   It's the fact that after asking for a copy a dozen times of the sonic it never was provided. So it wasn't done and cost me another set of bearings, gaskets and rings.

I found a great machinist in North Arlington Texas. Charles Eller.  Very competent and the FE is a specialty for him. He is meticulous not only with work, but the organization and cleanliness of the shop itself.

[Bolted to Floor]

after reading this post.  i have a question.  probably not related but how did the cam look?   I have had one of those break and lock everything up just doing a burnout at the strip.   it was like the key was turned off.

The engine is still in the car. Pulling the pan showed enough damage that I will pull it before I tear it down any farther.

[fairlanegt427]

i forgot to add that the car felt like a little bit of a shake . like you were saying.  i thought low tire also.  motor would turn 1/2 turn and that was it.   just thinking if it maybe bound up timing gears enough to break front of crank.   just me thinking too much.   i definitely feel your pain. 

[Bolted to Floor]

Thanks.

[Bolted to Floor]

Well…. it’s been busted since June and life has finally slowed so I could get the motor out of the car and torn apart.

For what I see, I think there was a crack in the crank for some amount of time prior to it breaking. The only measurement I took on disassemble was for end play, it was .010. I want to say it was within the .008 spec when I assembled it, going from memory only at this time. Main bearing number 2 looks really bad and the bearing does not sit right in the block or cap. Same goes for #2 rod. I have pics of the other rods if anyone is interested. Not sure what to make of all this.

Prior to the break, it had enough blow by that the dipstick was pushed out each time I lifted the hood. I really expected to find busted rings, but I didn’t. I can’t tell you anything about the rings other than they were there! None were stuck in the grove when they came out of the block. This was a .060 over block when I got it and I have serious doubts that a torque plate was used when ever it got bored.


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It appears that pistons 1 and 5 kissed the head. There is a small mark on the head for #5. I don’t see any damage otherwise, but I will get the heads checked out.

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Cylinders 5 to 8

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#5 Rod

Number five rod by JOHN DIXON, on Flickr

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#2 Piston

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#2 Main and Thrust bearing

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#2 Main

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Would this be considered Fretting?

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I am worried about the roller cam. What’s seen in the pictures won’t wipe off. There is a difference in the surface finish when you drag a fingernail across, but it’s not enough to catch on. Is this normal wear for a roller?

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It’s the same set of rollers from 3 angles.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Especially if it will help to avoid a repeat on the next build.

[cjshaker]

It looks to me like the crack started at the journal radius adjacent to the oil hole drilled for the rod journals, proceeded to expand to the oil passage, then let the whole thing split. Hard to say if the crack was already there, or if it appeared after the machining. Some detailed shots of the rod journal radius might help some of the engine guys determine if it was correctly machined. Either way, that oil passage is closer to the journal surface than I imagined. I can see where taking too much off the crank journal, or offset grinding, could weaken that area quickly.

Judging by the shiny spots on the backsides of the bearings, and the bearings themselves, I'd say it looks like the crank was starting to go out of balance for some time before it let go. Those bearings were certainly getting pounded, and they seem to coincide with the journals ahead of the cracked area, which has the least amount of stabilization and also has belt tension pulling on the snout.

Nothing looks damaged bad, and a good check might show the block, heads and possibly even the rods to still be good. I'd be more worried about the rods than the block, but I'd still get it checked and pressure tested, paying special attention to the mains webbing and bolt holes for cracks. The cam journal surface and roller wheels look marred from bearing debris, but not bad. I don't know about rollers, maybe it can be re-polished? The lifters would need rebuilt at the least, I'd think.

[c-reed]

Sorry about your misfortune, but a question for you. Do you know the brand of that camshaft? I bought a  used cam a while back and the only marking on it is in the same place as yours and just trying to figure out who made it. Thanks

[FirstEliminator]

Darn, that's a bummer to be on a pleasure trip and break down cutting the trip short. All in all, a crank failure is way better than a collision.   Will this be ready for Beaver Springs?

[Bolted to Floor]

Thanks for the feedback Doug.

I am done with this block and have acquired another that cleans up at .020. New rods, crank, bearings, and rings are in the garage. I'm waiting on pistons to take it all to the machine shop. I will take the heads to him also for inspection. I will see what I can do about a rebuild on the lifters.

I was showing some of the parts to a friend today and his comment on the cam was it looked like valve float since the chatter marks were on the ramp down side of the lobe. I don't know that my pictures show it that well.

I was going to try to sell some of the rods. Number 1 was a gift to a friend. Number 5 will be wall art for me. Number 2 is questionable to me due to the bearing condition. At $95 for a single from summit, I don't expect to get much for the rest of them.

Is there a market for garden variety main FE caps??

C-reed, mine is a Comp Cam bought in 2017.

Yes, Mark, it was a bummer. We had drove up from Houston to Adrian Michigan for the Mustang Steve Bash that took place the day before. We had more sight seeing planned for the way home. We still got to do a lot of that, but we lost a day rounding up a truck and trailer. I hope the car will be ready, whether it is or not, I will be in Surfside Beach SC for the 2020 Mustang Steve Bash. The Bash and Reunion are on the same weekend this year. I would love to make it to one of the Reunions.

To all, I want to be clear that I'm looking for a better understanding......to use it as an expensive learning experience, nothing more.

[cjshaker]

John, I'm surprised more people haven't chimed in.
Unless you drag raced the car, a crank failure is obviously a rare thing. I'd have to guess that it was a fluke, a bad luck deal, but I'd look the machine work over carefully on that radius, and get some input from the guys here who machine that stuff. A bad machining practice on a radius could have led to that failure, and you don't want a repeat of that!

Heck, I could be wrong about the radius failure, but it sure looks like that's where it started, right at the apex of where the radius machining ends and the forging starts. And if that's the case, it seems to me that that's not just a coincidence. Has the crank led a hard life? Drag raced? Abused in a previous engine? Was it magged?

[Bolted to Floor]

The radius was brought up early on and could be a possibility. I will get some better pictures of it, but I’m not sure how well it will be for a comparison to what one should be. Fluke or bad luck is a possibility with a 50 year old part.

Drag raced, no. Heavy foot, hard acceleration, yes.

I took the crank out of a 410 in a pick a part about 1990. It’s been moved from house to house over the years standing on end in my garage till it went to the machine shop. It was magged for cracks and checked good. Prior to that, no idea.

[dcm0123]

Was the dark stain shown in the break area on the 7'Th and 8'Th pictures from the bottom there when it was removed from the car?
This does not look normal and may be an indication of why it cracked.

I would discard the block or have someone check it for bearing bore alignment and fractures before you use it.
I recently took apart a Ford 302 which had a broken crack. The block was severely cracked as well.

[Bolted to Floor]

The only thing I wiped off was some excess oil.

I won’t be using the block again.

[My427stang]

The only thing I wiped off was some excess oil.

I won’t be using the block again.

I initially was going to tell you not to replace the block just for a bad crank, but went back and saw it was a .060 over 390 not the 428 I thought it was and changed my tune.

Cranks break and often in that general area.  A bit of balance issues, belts pulling on them, a previous cut that may take away a little margin of fillet, and you have what you see.  You could easily push the pistons out, take a good look at the block and just stab another crank in, and it wouldn't scare me to tell the truth unless you find that a cylinder split.  However, given the .060, and quality of the car, I'd likely build something stronger in both durability and horsepower, seeing that you are forced to take it apart and have good supporting parts already.

Honestly though, a broken crank is a reason to look at a block closely but not itself a reason to swap a block.  Regardless, if motivated to do so, it'd be nice to do a min overbore internally balanced stroker and go with nice light components. 

[Bolted to Floor]

Thanks for the feedback Ross.