Author Topic: Let the debunking begin (Read 7298 times)

Royce · « **on:** May 16, 2019, 01:45:04 PM »

I find this story hard to believe, but I have no specific knowledge.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25220/lot/180/

chris401 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2019, 02:59:07 PM »

Quote from: Royce on May 16, 2019, 01:45:04 PM

I find this story hard to believe, but I have no specific knowledge.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25220/lot/180/

The car is about two hours North of me. The owner said it is leaving for auction 10 days from today. The ad has some of his cars mis represented. The 65 cammer has 65 Lincoln suspension with front disc brakes with a 4 link 9" rear 2 1/2" drums. Mr. Fuche told me a bit about this car and how Ford got caught showing this car repainted as a different car. The owner confirmed that story. Hopefully I will create the opportunity to look at in person before it is shipped to Ct.

babybolt · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2019, 03:34:16 PM »

From the link:

"The original data plate was missing from the car and there was little paperwork included."

Royce · « **Reply #3 on:** May 16, 2019, 03:38:09 PM »

Not throwing stones, but I hope he has a paper trail to back it up..65 Lincolns were unibody and the Gal has a frame.. Might be quite an operation to switch them over and get decent geometry.. I could believe Lincoln disc brakes on a Ford but wonder about complete suspension. This reminds me of the 427 in a Mustang controversy. Hope you get to look it over Chris.

chris401 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 16, 2019, 06:43:15 PM »

Quote from: Royce on May 16, 2019, 03:38:09 PM

Not throwing stones, but I hope he has a paper trail to back it up..65 Lincolns were unibody and the Gal has a frame.. Might be quite an operation to switch them over and get decent geometry.. I could believe Lincoln disc brakes on a Ford but wonder about complete suspension. This reminds me of the 427 in a Mustang controversy. Hope you get to look it over Chris.

I don't know how good of a look I can get. Been interested in this car for the past 30 years.

67428GT500 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2019, 08:02:57 PM »

I also don't show a "M" engine code in any Ford or Merc manuals I have. As a matter of fact the cammer isn't covered in any service manual I own, which covers most FOMOCO products from 63-68 in my library. There have been a bunch of crap coming out if the woodwork lately. Did anyone see the Dark Pony Shelby supposedly built all while engulfed GT350 Program? I used to go over and talk to Little Joe and Carroll Shelby at the Gardena Tire Distributorship. Shelby was never a warm fuzzy hugger, as this person claims. He was brash, to the point and often countered anyone who had an opinion that differed from him. Usually with colorful language. What I appreciated is he wasn't a person who said things behind your back, he was confrontational and direct.
I know most people get butt-hurt over people who are direct these days. It's why the cry-babies have an issue with Trump. He doesn't candy-coat and is a doer, not a talker. He follows his vision. I agree as a former military officer that sometimes diplomacy is over-rated and simply waste time and resources.
Anyway, back on topic: Without Ford documents that prove without a doubt this was built by Ford it just becomes another cool car.

-Keith

preaction · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2019, 08:51:39 PM »

I found this for 67 motor listings.

67428GT500 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2019, 10:17:37 PM »

You show what I do. No M. Nor "production" vehicles with an installation of the SOHC. Even if it was a Ford "Skunk Works" car I doubt at this late stage that it wouldn't have surfaced with the paperwork to substantiate its existence.
No doubt a great combination none the less.

Royce · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:45:41 AM »

Has anyone ever heard of this Watkins Glenn secret test site? Why would Ford pick a road course for testing if they were preparing for NASCAR?

This has lawsuit written all over it.. The savvy Ford buyer will see through it, but quasi endorsement by Bonham's may entice someone who is less tapped in to Ford history to pay up believing the story is fact.. When a knowledgeable Ford guy pokes holes in the story, the buyer may seek recourse.. OH WELL Caveat Emptor

mbrunson427 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:09:43 AM »

Quote from: Royce on May 17, 2019, 08:45:41 AM

This has lawsuit written all over it.. The savvy Ford buyer will see through it, but quasi endorsement by Bonham's may entice someone who is less tapped in to Ford history to pay up believing the story is fact.. When a knowledgeable Ford guy pokes holes in the story, the buyer may seek recourse.. OH WELL Caveat Emptor

It's funny you say that..... I was just on vacation and the guy staying next to our room was a US Martial. He got to telling stories one night about cases he's dealt with and one of them was eerily similar to this, but with wine. The guy sold a couple bottles of wine out of his "collection" and made up some grand story about them, sold them for 7 figures. Ended up locked up.

gt350hr · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2019, 11:49:46 AM »

Royce ,
You are SPOT ON! The Ford X garage was AT FORD in Michigan , not Watkins Glen NY!!! The late Bill Holbrook ( rip) ran it. It was not secret at all. MANY engine combinations were tested there. One of the oddest was the installation of an all aluminum pushrod 255 Indy engine into an early Galaxie with headers that went straight up in the air. ( no hood). They had "pool cars" that were used for testing all kinds of prototype things , calibration of engine and powertrain parts for specific applications. Bob "Jumpy" Snider was one of the "test" drivers. IF this car is real , it WOULD have a brass "asset tag" as all of the X garage cars did to keep track of them.
My Ford literature does not give an engine code for a '65 cammer but does show D for a '66 dual four car. We know there were two '66s made ( Passino and Gordon Cooper) plus the drag cars of Mike Schmidt and Jerry Harvey , plus the "mule" '64 done at the X garage. Bill never mentioned this one in any of my conversations with him.
One MAJOR thing like the X garage being in NY makes ALL the rest suspicious "to me".
Randy

cammerfe · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2019, 05:34:52 PM »

It was common at FoMoCo to have experimental areas in many production plants. The one at T&C Livonia was located just 'inboard' of the Executive garage in the southwest corner of the plant. They were forever playing with things. After going through a project, the parts would be displayed in the experimental area. We saw several iterations of a C6 with the bell cut off and a scattershield fastened on with the pump bolts. They were figuring out ways to drive the pump with a converter hub and ways of engaging the pressure plate.

On another occasion, they brought a '69 Mustang in and converted it into a Boss 302 car for Trans-Am racing. I seem to remember the engine on a pallet, strapped down, with Bud Moore shipping-labels attached. The plant manager's son wanted to go road racing. He was later killed in a 'round-the-houses' SCCA race in Pontiac.

When Bunkie Knudson came to Ford, he had a Mustang made -up specially for his wife. It was in our garage for some of the work. I don't know exactly what all was done, but the car was painted pink and it had a 'Shaker' scoop through the hood although the engine was a more-or-less base 302.

KS

ntheogen · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2019, 06:52:11 PM »

I've seen the car twice and know the owner, buyer beware and then some on this one...

CDXXVII · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2019, 07:23:22 PM »

Quote from: 67428GT500 on May 16, 2019, 08:02:57 PM

I also don't show a "M" engine code in any Ford or Merc manuals I have. As a matter of fact the cammer isn't covered in any service manual I own, which covers most FOMOCO products from 63-68 in my library.

From what I have read the car has zero documentation. I can't figure why the VIN code for the assembly plant shows Dearborn (F) but Dearborn was building Mustangs in 1965. Mr Rummel is a real nice guy but he may have been snookered when he bought the car way back when.

Keith-If you have the 1965 factory Ford shop manual it shows the M engine code on page 4. Evidently the plug was pulled on the cammer after the books were sent to print.

TomP · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2019, 09:50:13 PM »

Is that the car the guy with a huge collection of parts had for sale a few months ago?

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/autos/news/one-of-one-big-block-cammer-ford-galaxie-heads-to-auction/ar-AABsMDx?li=AAggFp0&ocid=mailsignout

427Fastback · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:17:01 PM »

I would think that John V would be on the list of guys to ask about this one....Up here in BC we have a Shelby built Cougar GTE and a Galaxie with a CJ and tri-power...Owners swear they are authentic....We call them one of none..

No paper work,no tags and no proof....Just a interesting story....

67428GT500 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2019, 11:03:32 PM »

Yeah, just like the 1967 Shelbys with a 427. We saw that '65 Mustang fastback that was supposedly built by Shelby and he happened to " Hug the guy and smile and tell him about the two cars" Shelby remembers little about the Supersnake and that made the press. I also knew Carroll Shelby and He wasn't a smiling warm kind of guy. He was very a matter of fact and direct, usually with colorful comments in between.
The stories for most are nice but simply BS.

WConley · « **Reply #17 on:** May 17, 2019, 11:44:51 PM »

No way there was an "X-Garage" in Watkins Glen. As stated earlier, the real X-Garage was at the Dearborn Proving Ground on Oakwood Blvd. Drive a few miles down the Southfield Freeway and you have Engine Manufacturing Development Operations, where the cammer engines (and most other prototype engines) were hand-assembled. Roughly between those two facilities was the Pilot Plant.

I worked in Ford Engineering and I was in those facilities many, many times for projects. On any development program, you had lots of technicians, prototype mechanics, fabricators, engineers, drafting room guys, etc. working together. All of those folks were within a few minutes of each other in Dearborn.

Who in their right mind would ship such a high profile project to the backwaters of upstate New York? All of the Top Secret projects I ever heard of stayed right in the Dearborn area. Sometimes we'd do unusual stuff at Roush or McLaren Engines if we wanted it out of sight, but it was always within a close drive for any team member. Big companies run on meetings!

This story holds no water at all. I bet that "original" car doesn't even have the factory cast iron SOHC headers. Some poor buyer is in for a big disappointment.

- Bill

67428GT500 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2019, 04:12:49 AM »

My spouse is from Watkins Glen. It's a crock of crap fabricated to raise the value of the vehicle. Her father was a Glen official.

GJCAT427 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2019, 05:28:27 AM »

Both of those links smell a little fishy. The auction description is more or less a PR sales pitch to excite buyers to bid high. I see some "facts" that contradict actual known facts. Again "Buyer Beware".

Katz427 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2019, 08:08:21 AM »

I agree, there was no Ford garage at Watkins Glen, on or near the race track. Having been at the facilities multiple times in the mid to late sixties, I can say that story is fantasy. Some discussion on Hemming's Motor News about the car. Dr. John Craft and a few others doubt this 1965 Galaxie's story.

TomP · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2019, 11:40:20 AM »

From Hemmings story
"In addition to those two, however, Ford built at least one more SOHC Galaxie, according to John Rummel, a Ford FE collector from Fort Worth, Texas. Originally built in Dearborn as a 289-powered car, the Galaxie 500 two-door hardtop (chassis number 5F66M100016) was never intended for sale to the public, Rummel said. Instead, Ford marked it with a District Sales Office number of 87, the code for further internal work. That work apparently included the installation of an M-code dual-quad SOHC 427 and four-speed manual transmission as well as a full 1965 Lincoln Continental front suspension and four-link rear suspension."

Hmmm, so if Dearborn plant was building Mustangs and this was built there as a 289 then how did it get the M code?
I wonder what the rest of the Data plate says. I assume it is a repro. Is that VIN on the cowl and frame?

I would love for this to be proven as the real deal and certainly there must be several people still around who would know.

machoneman · « **Reply #22 on:** May 18, 2019, 01:18:11 PM »

Quote from: TomP on May 18, 2019, 11:40:20 AM

From Hemmings story
"In addition to those two, however, Ford built at least one more SOHC Galaxie, according to John Rummel, a Ford FE collector from Fort Worth, Texas. Originally built in Dearborn as a 289-powered car, the Galaxie 500 two-door hardtop (chassis number 5F66M100016) was never intended for sale to the public, Rummel said. Instead, Ford marked it with a District Sales Office number of 87, the code for further internal work. That work apparently included the installation of an M-code dual-quad SOHC 427 and four-speed manual transmission as well as a full 1965 Lincoln Continental front suspension and four-link rear suspension."

Hmmm, so if Dearborn plant was building Mustangs and this was built there as a 289 then how did it get the M code?
I wonder what the rest of the Data plate says. I assume it is a repro. Is that VIN on the cowl and frame?

I would love for this to be proven as the real deal and certainly there must be several people still around who would know.

Bet John Rummel owned it at one point, build it himself, sold it as gennie or maybe he hits 2 out of these 3!

ntheogen · « **Reply #23 on:** May 18, 2019, 08:36:44 PM »

John still owns it, that's who is selling it.

machoneman · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2019, 08:29:05 AM »

Quote from: ntheogen on May 18, 2019, 08:36:44 PM

John still owns it, that's who is selling it.

That's what I thought. Thx.

BH107 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2019, 03:40:47 PM »

John has been trying to get the car authenticated for years, and no former Ford guys will get near it. Even when he had it in Detroit in 2015 the guys that were there in 1965 just rolled their eyes.

gt350hr · « **Reply #26 on:** May 20, 2019, 10:02:12 AM »

DSO 87 does NOT specifically mean it was marked or held for modification "by itself". It was fairly common for early production cars to be sent to a specific Ford location. To be a car destined for "further internal work" it would "normally" get an asset ( brass ) tag and there would be paperwork ( elusive to Mr Rummel because it likely doesn't exist) to show what was done as "some " department had to pay for the rework. Everything had to be accounted for.
Randy

C8OZ · « **Reply #27 on:** May 20, 2019, 10:09:39 AM »

Does anyone here have a copy of the list of brass tag cars/special vehicles activity from this period? I've seen a section from 66-67 posted elsewhere.

And slightly OT...If so, I'd love to see the '68 data if it exists.

gt350hr · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2019, 10:41:24 AM »

I have a partial ( relating to racing entities) from '69. I haven't seen another.

Dr Mabuse · « **Reply #29 on:** November 19, 2019, 05:46:37 PM »

My "1965 Ford Service Specifications For Cars and Trucks" (First Printing) is dated September 1964.

(Cars) - Engine ID - Warranty Plate symbol:

"L" is for overhead cam 427 V-8 (4V)
"M" is for 427 (ohc) 8V

(page copy attached)

Q: WHAT were they THINKING?

KMcCullah · « **Reply #30 on:** November 20, 2019, 09:27:05 AM »

Just an observation here. But you'd think a car with such storied provenance would NOT have a Mr Gasket select-o-pressure regulator installed in plain sight. And on the suction side to boot!

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-9710

chris401 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 20, 2019, 05:34:12 PM »

Quote from: Dr Mabuse on November 19, 2019, 05:46:37 PM

My "1965 Ford Service Specifications For Cars and Trucks" (First Printing) is dated September 1964.

(Cars) - Engine ID - Warranty Plate symbol:

"L" is for overhead cam 427 V-8 (4V)
"M" is for 427 (ohc) 8V

(page copy attached)

Q: WHAT were they THINKING?

That is the book I saw at Mr. Rummels shop. Thanks for posting it

News:

Author Topic: Let the debunking begin (Read 7298 times)

chris401

chris401

chris401