Author Topic: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?  (Read 3943 times)

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427HISS

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Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« on: May 10, 2019, 06:35:41 PM »
I installed a new bushing in back of the block. How deep should the Tremec TKO shaft go into the bushing ?

Also, what's the torque spec of the flywheel bolts ?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:38:22 PM by 427HISS »

machoneman

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Bushing ?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2019, 06:39:15 PM »
I've never seen a spec. yet IMO it should be over say 7/8'ths of the depth of the bushing. Even more important is the fact that it can't bottom out (tranny nose) into the back of the crank.

I've always used the stock Ford flywheel bolts, with a bit of Loctite, torqued to factory specs (75-85 ft-lbs). If the stock 5/16" pressure plate bolts are used, the factory spec is 18-20 ft-lbs, I normally use ARP or Mr. Gasket bolts, torqued to 28 ft-lbs. The pressure plate bolts have lock washers, so I don`t use Loctite on those.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:42:58 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2019, 06:56:14 PM »
Yes, I've never seen a spec either, so I'll say, just enough without causing a problem. lol
I always use Loctite on threads, but NEVER the red....a bitch to remove (or try) a bolt.

I wanted to try the roller bearing type, but two people said not to, as they can fall apart. Not an issue with the bushing.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2019, 10:12:01 PM »
Every late model car has a roller bearing pilot.  Not an issue.  I've run the same sealed bearing in my wagon for years and years without issue.

You just need the width of the bearing/bushing for support.  Anymore and risk bottoming out in crank.  Much less and not good either.  Just don't include the lead in taper of pilot as the amount.

I've never loktited flywheel/clutch bolts.  Never an issue there either.  I torque flywheel to around 75# and clutch is just snugged up by hand.  I'm pretty good with feel, so never a problem in wagon or hot rods.

To each their own.
Larry

drdano

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2019, 10:19:18 PM »
This brings up some terrible memories.  You can go relive my pain with a TKO input and my 428 at this thread.  Get it sorted out!

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=581

cammerfe

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2019, 10:54:10 PM »
Be aware that a pilot for a Ford small-block is likely to bottom out in an FE crank and push the crank forward. This is VERY detrimental to main, and sometimes to rod, bearings. The 2-6 throw is often the problem area. This can 'lunch' an entire engine. Ask me how I know.

(Make sure your dyno operator uses a drive spud for an FE and not one for a small block.)

KS
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 10:56:00 PM by cammerfe »

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2019, 04:23:37 PM »
What do you guys prefer, the bushing or bearing ?
Where can I get the correct one for the FE ?

Do you machine the bearing to fit the block for a very snug fit, as mine from Jegs was too large.
For removing, do you a socket and grease, rag, paper towel, etc..to hydraulic the bearing out ?
For installing, do you use a proper sized socket and hammer ?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 04:46:47 PM by 427HISS »

shady

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What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
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BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2019, 11:19:33 AM »
I run a sealed bearing #6303.
Larry

cjshaker

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2019, 11:45:54 AM »
I run a sealed bearing #6303.
\
Same here. Been using one in the Mustang for the last 15+ years, no issues. Just had the tranny out again to put in a different one and looked the bearing over real good, still didn't see any issue with it so I left it alone.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

Rory428

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2019, 02:01:03 PM »
I have had good results using OE style bronze pilot bushings in FE applications using organic disc material, but they will not live with a sintered iron drag race clutch, the abrasive clutch dust eats the soft material in very short order. On my Fairmont, with Fe engines, and a sintered iron clutch, I also use a 6303 ball bearing, but preventing them from falling out can be a challenge . The hard outer section would be great is it was a thou or 2 larger OD, as they don`t fit as tight as I like, at least on the OE Ford crankshafts I use, also the ball bearing outer section is thicker than the hole in the crank, so it hangs out a bit. Also the fit of the input shafts pilot tip is nice and snug, so combined with the slightly smallish OD, I often experience that the bearing pulls out of the crankshaft when removing the transmission. I had tried various Loctite styles, which helped some, but still usually allow the bearing to come out during trans removal. About 15 years ago, I had used a Ford needle bearing pilot bearing, that had a powdered metal outer section. Unbeknownst to me, the pilot walked out, and during a dragstrip pass, my clutch disc ripped out the hub around the rivited clutch hub (McLeod Soft Lok, sintered iron , solid hub), and my guess is that the pilot had walked out some time earlier, and that allowed the input to move up and down enough that the disc cracked around the hub, until it broke free. When I stabbed the clutch pedal, the disc dropped down enough to grab the inside of the Lakewood scattershield, and carve deep grooves inside, and the pieces flying around put large dents in the bellhousing, fold over the pressure plate flange, and snap off the starter nose. When I attempted to remove the transmission, it pulled back about 3/4", and jammed up, as the front bearing retainer of the transmission was flared out enough from the moving input shaft, that the throw out bearing would not slide over the bulge. The bellhousing, clutch and flywheel, starter motor, clutch fork, as well as the Jericos front bearing retainer and front bearing were all destroyed. All because of an inexpensive pilot bearing.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2019, 06:46:41 PM »
I've only had one experience where that bearing would be not be as snug as I wanted.  It was a Scat cast 3.98 crank.  You could tap it in, but once I removed the transmission after a season or so, the bearing would be slipped out about 3/16".  The input spline was holding it from coming out any further.  Never a problem as it as still in the crank enough to hold.   The forged 4.25 crank is much tighter and has not been a problem in 5 yrs now.  All my stock 428 cranks were good.

I tried some lok tite on the loose crank to no avail.  All the forces would work it loose.  I never tried peening the bore of the crank.  It's a now issue now.

I had the issue with bronze bushings also. I would get about 50 passes and the bore would have grown from .69 to over 1.00.  It would cause a horrible vibration with the input being out of centerline and using the disc to shake pretty bad.   I would use a 1 1/8-6" tap to screw it out of the back of the crank.
Larry

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2019, 06:34:22 PM »
We made a video of our situation.. As you can see, the crank end is off about 0.014 out of round.

https://webmail.windstream.net/service/home/~/?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=36161&part=2

What should we do ?

Oh, by the way, we bolted up the bellhousing and measured and the shaft will be sitting on the bushing about 1/2", so good to go there.


« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:51:42 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2019, 09:14:06 AM »
Bump...

machoneman

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2019, 01:17:26 PM »
Bump...

Link won't open and shows this message:

HTTP ERROR 404
Problem accessing /service/home/~/. Reason:

    must authenticate
Bob Maag

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2019, 05:39:52 PM »
OK, a friend shot it for me on his cell, then sent to my email address. My server is Windstream so it looks like you must have them. I'm sending him the link here so he can post it.

BattlestarGalactic

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2019, 09:05:34 AM »
Best way is get it downloaded to a hosting site(youtube or such).  Then link it here. 
Larry

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2019, 01:27:47 PM »
Never tried it before. How's that done on like, YouTube ?

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2019, 05:42:06 PM »
OK, guess just a photo.

 The highest was 014
Tap on Pic for larger view.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 08:06:40 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2019, 09:43:33 AM »
Anybody ? 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:48:31 PM by 427HISS »

427HISS

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Re: Depth Of Trans Input Shaft Into Pilot Bushing ?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2019, 08:12:30 PM »
Great news. My friend is so good at machining, that he made a bearing to fit the not so great round hole in the block that when we measured the bearing installed, we could not see the needle move,....at all. His measurements and skill is wonderful !

I installed the Ram bullet flywheel, so the dual disk clutch is next. I'm going slow, but at least I'm getting some things done.