Mobil 1 15w-50 full synthetic for flat tappet?

[cjshaker]

I'm thinking about switching to Mobil 1 15w-50 full synthetic in my 427 solid lifter engine. I've always shied away from full synthetics on flat tappet engines, but according to their data, this stuff has pretty good zinc content to work with flat tappet cams. I'm curious what the engine builders have to say, or if anyone has used this stuff in flat tappet engines with good success? All of their other racing oils are 0 or 5 weights, which is too thin for my liking.

[mbrunson427]

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/?code=ZRTQT-EA

The label says all the right things on this stuff. Expensive though.

[rcodecj]

I've used Mobil 1 15w-50 full synthetic for decades with no problems. Mobil 1 also makes a 0w40 full synthetic with zinc that I've used but before I used any of them I would check the Mobil 1 site as they do change formulas sometimes.

[Stangman]

I am using 10-40 Brad Penn and feel pretty comfortable with it. I have about 1500 miles on it and oil is still real clean. Now I do change it whenever I feel like it, or on a whim because I take it to the track but it always feels very slippery when it get on your hands. Ive felt many an oil and sometimes I wonder how motors last the oil feels like water and like just wisks away on your hands no slippery feeling. I do like the extra thickness and thats probably what you like also. Maybe you should ask about your clearances and go from there. I was advised to use 10-40 for the clearances that I have from builder.

[64PI]

I've been running Brad Penn 10w30 in my 451" flat tappet engine for 4 years now. Like Stangman  mentioned its very slippery stuff. I just tore down a 390 I had together for 10 years that has seen approx. 20,000 street miles and countless passes. That engine has been through Rotella, V-R1 and Brad Penn.. The bearings looked new and the 294s comp cams looks new. Bradd Penn gets my vote but I'm curious to hear what people have to say about mobil....

[cjshaker]

I suppose I should have mentioned that clearances range from .0025-.0035. The engine has probably 5k road miles and about 30 track passes, so it's broke in. With my clearances, zero or 5 weight is not something I want to go to. I've been using Rotella 15w-40, but I think they've dropped some of the zinc additives from their newest blends. As usual though, details are hard to come by. Mobil is pretty open about their blends and zinc content, at least on their website. My concern is for the flat tappet cam.

[Stangman]

I think my clearances were 0025-0028 so maybe thats why Im 10-40. I never inquired but does Brad Penn have a 20-50?
I am also using a solid Doug. With those clearances 20-50 dont sound unreasonable.

[CaptCobrajet]

 I like Valvoline VR1 SAE 30.  I wouldn't use the full synthetic oils until it has a lot of miles on the rings.  Like maybe 15000.  Just my opinion.  It needs to be sealed and "worn in" for a while on regular oil.  If not, it will always consume a little.  In '09, my brother and I both got new 4.6 Mustangs for our wives.  He went synthetic from day one.  I brought ours home and dropped the oil out, and put dinasour guts in mine.  I ran it 20K on conventional VR1, then switched to synthetic.  Both cars have a little over 100K now.  His uses some between changes.  Mine does not.......

Just a side note......cars with cats won't like the zinc oils long-term.  It plugs them up.

[Stangman]

I dont think Brad Penn is synthetic, I will have to look maybe its synthetic blend? I was thinking when I bought it that I didnt want synthetic cause evryone says synthetics have more oil leaks. I dont know if thats a thing with FEs cause they leak anyway alot of times. But I know I ran my brake in 30 weight BP for like 50 miles then changed the oil and filterwith new break in oil for 500 miles then went to the 10-40. Maybe its overkill but I thought I was  protecting my investment.

[cjshaker]

Blair, thanks for the input. I wondered if that was enough miles. I think I will go with the VR1, which I already have several cases of.

I also have an '09 GT, bought in early '10 with only 3k miles. I've always used full synthetic, but it only has 28k on it currently. Don't drive it much.

[Katz427]

I know this topic has been discussed many times. My experience has been altered in that at work or customers were having pump failures we had never seen before with the diesels. Checking the oil for additive package , we found that the zinc had been reduced, but should not have caused the failures we were seeing.
The parts were sent to metallurgist and he discovered that one of the other extreme pressure additives had a greater affinity for plating the metal surface, than the zinc. The zinc basically did nothing. This info was passed along to our oil supplier.
What does it mean? IMO forget focus on zinc and go with what has worked. Depending on the additive package the zinc content may be misleading.

[ACHiPo]

I suppose I should have mentioned that clearances range from .0025-.0035. The engine has probably 5k road miles and about 30 track passes, so it's broke in. With my clearances, zero or 5 weight is not something I want to go to. I've been using Rotella 15w-40, but I think they've dropped some of the zinc additives from their newest blends. As usual though, details are hard to come by. Mobil is pretty open about their blends and zinc content, at least on their website. My concern is for the flat tappet cam.

Doug,
I emailed both Shell and Chevron to ask about ZDDP levels in their diesel oil (Rotella and Delo) as I was figuring out what to run in my new 470 FE with flat hydraulic tappets.  Chevron reduced their ZDDP from ~1200 to 800 ppm and added other additives (ash?) to compensate while meeting EPA standards.  Shell Rotella still has 1200 ppm ZDDP.  I have no idea why Shell is able to make their higher zinc additive compliant while Chevron (and other companies) couldn't.

A member of our Cobra club was a development engineer for Chevron in charge of their racing program for many years.  He convinced me that the 1200 ppm ZDDP diesel oil is the best for performance engines (claims even race teams sponsored by Penzoil, etc. used Chevron Delo because it flat worked in race conditions).  He recommended using Delo, but adding ZDDP additive since the Delo now has reduced zinc.  I understand his loyalty to Chevron, but that seems a little silly when I can get Rotella that already has the right zinc level in it.  I'm planning to use the Rotella starting my first oil change.  Given the relatively low mileage my Cobra will see, I figure dino makes more sense since I'm going to want to change the oil every 3k anyway.

I'll close by saying that the whole oil thing is a mystery, in large part because of the proprietary nature of the compounds.  There's a whole lot of opinions, but the only folks that really seem to have data are the oil companies, and they wrap marketing-speak around everything.

[Katz427]

The reason Shell has kept zinc levels relatively high is that Rotella oil is listed strictly for diesel use.  It is not to be used in new cars with converters as Blair stated, the zinc causes degradation, and pollutes the catalyst  media in the convertor and that leads to shortened life.
So far, I have not heard of those zinc levels causing problems with DPF filters.

[plovett]

Yes.  You can use it.  I have been using it for as long a I can remember with my solid flat tappet.  I have about 405 lbs open pressure, nitrided cam and EDM lifters.   I like synthetic because I have a half-filled block so I know the oil temps are higher.  Also, you get maybe a 1% gain in power.  Not a lot but something.

I usually get it at Wal-Mart for about $23 per 5 quarts?

JMO,

paulie

[wayne]

VR1 all the way for me its all i use no trouble ever,

[Barry_R]

I know this topic has been discussed many times. My experience has been altered in that at work or customers were having pump failures we had never seen before with the diesels. Checking the oil for additive package , we found that the zinc had been reduced, but should not have caused the failures we were seeing.
The parts were sent to metallurgist and he discovered that one of the other extreme pressure additives had a greater affinity for plating the metal surface, than the zinc. The zinc basically did nothing. This info was passed along to our oil supplier.
What does it mean? IMO forget focus on zinc and go with what has worked. Depending on the additive package the zinc content may be misleading.

Ford ran into something similar on the newer 6.7 diesels when testing on a new upgrade oil for current rules.  Sent out a TSB to tell folks not to use some of the newer oil formulations, making note of the fact that the Motorcraft diesel oil had not yet been "updated" to the newer specification and still performed fine, while updated oils were causing premature wear.  No oil upgrade for them is planned anymore - not sure who actually makes the Motorcraft oil.

Doug - I would keep running what has been working all long.  Making a change is a risk taken with no potential reward.  The key benefits of synthetics are a really low cold pour point - which does not affect a hot rod, really good extremely high temperature characteristics which are not likely for a hot rod, and extended oil change intervals while we change oil so frequently that it seem like we enjoy doing it.  As hard as you have run that engine and as many miles as it has already gone I would expect its already pretty well sorted out.  I'd concentrate on chassis and driveline - there is still plenty of ET to be gained there.

[cjshaker]

Doug - I would keep running what has been working all long.  Making a change is a risk taken with no potential reward.  The key benefits of synthetics are a really low cold pour point - which does not affect a hot rod, really good extremely high temperature characteristics which are not likely for a hot rod, and extended oil change intervals while we change oil so frequently that it seem like we enjoy doing it.  As hard as you have run that engine and as many miles as it has already gone I would expect its already pretty well sorted out.  I'd concentrate on chassis and driveline - there is still plenty of ET to be gained there.

Barry, all very valid and good points. Chassis set-up is my biggest issue still, and that's where pretty much ALL gains will come from at this point. I just don't have anyone with experience watching me and telling me which way I need to go, so it's just a guessing game as I try and follow some internet-found guidelines on the Caltracs. Of course I'm also making realizations on my own, so seat time is also key.

The 2 reasons I considered an oil change is 1: The car will go straight from warm-up to racing at the FER&R, unlike Drag Week where it's subjected to extended highway driving and the latent heat build-up that affects oil viscosity (especially in my case with 4.30 gears and no overdrive). And 2: I've seen reports about Shell dropping some of the zinc levels in their Rotella T-4, which is what I've ran in the summer months. I was using Valvoline 20w-50 during Drag Week, for the reasons I mentioned. While considering the change, I was looking at options of using a synthetic. I think I agree with you though, no reason to change horses in the middle of the stream. I may get away from the Rotella though, and just stick with a racing oil like the Valvoline VR1, which is more suited for flat tappet cams.

[cjshaker]

The parts were sent to metallurgist and he discovered that one of the other extreme pressure additives had a greater affinity for plating the metal surface, than the zinc. The zinc basically did nothing. This info was passed along to our oil supplier.
What does it mean? IMO forget focus on zinc and go with what has worked. Depending on the additive package the zinc content may be misleading.

I'll close by saying that the whole oil thing is a mystery, in large part because of the proprietary nature of the compounds.  There's a whole lot of opinions, but the only folks that really seem to have data are the oil companies, and they wrap marketing-speak around everything.

You guys are right, which is what is so frustrating about oils; you just don't know what changes they are making, or how it affects your investment. And they are not always entirely open about those changes; it seems they just have to filter down to the public over time.

[plovett]

Don't mind my real world experience.  LOL! 

[machoneman]

O/T but only a few years ago Pro Stockers started running 0W oil for less drag/more hp. After a lot of careful checking, my 2018 3.0 turbo Audi S5 requires, get this, 0-20W oil!

Hard to really sink that in but that's what it uses.

[cjshaker]

Don't mind my real world experience.  LOL! 

Paulie, I'm not discounting yours, Katz or ACHiPo's experiences, I'm just leery of "new" stuff in general..lol  I'll likely try it, but probably in something less critical, like in my Galaxie. I'm not fond of 'experimenting' with the 427, which is all original iron, and getting harder to come by.

Bob, our Honda Civic Hybrids at work use 0w-20. Stuff comes out like water. Can't say I'm too fond of it myself. I know some of the "big" racers are running thinner and thinner oil, even going so far as dropping oil pressure to near zero when they cross the finish line, all in the name of freeing up HP. Seems crazy, and definitely not for me!

[gdaddy01]

Speaking of coming out like water , I had problem with front carb flooding on the Ranchero , changed out the regulator , ended up being a hole in the bowl float , I have read and heard of this never had it happen . got it fixed and changed the oil . the oil looked like as thin as water , maybe two quarts of gas in the oil . 10w40 oil .

[wowens]

I'm no expert, but, I have heard many "experts" say that full synthetic is too slick for a solid lifter engine. Theory supposedly  is the lifters will not drag enough on the cam to rotate in the bore. I have no experience with full synthetic.

[machoneman]

Don't mind my real world experience.  LOL! 

Paulie, I'm not discounting yours, Katz or ACHiPo's experiences, I'm just leery of "new" stuff in general..lol  I'll likely try it, but probably in something less critical, like in my Galaxie. I'm not fond of 'experimenting' with the 427, which is all original iron, and getting harder to come by.

Bob, our Honda Civic Hybrids at work use 0w-20. Stuff comes out like water. Can't say I'm too fond of it myself. I know some of the "big" racers are running thinner and thinner oil, even going so far as dropping oil pressure to near zero when they cross the finish line, all in the name of freeing up HP. Seems crazy, and definitely not for me!

Thx Doug as I didn't know that. With today's tight tolerances no wonder the oil specs have radically changed.

Reminds me of a true WWII Russian V-12 engine story. After the initial run in of a T-34 tank engine, about 1/2 pound of metal coming out into the oil was normal!

[plovett]

Don't mind my real world experience.  LOL! 

Paulie, I'm not discounting yours, Katz or ACHiPo's experiences, I'm just leery of "new" stuff in general..lol  I'll likely try it, but probably in something less critical, like in my Galaxie. I'm not fond of 'experimenting' with the 427, which is all original iron, and getting harder to come by.

No worries, Doug.  It's just funny to me because I have been using it so long. If I remember right, I switched to synthetic after just the break in and maybe 300 miles.

[allrightmike]

   While not having to do with camshaft life, I believe this story will interest some of you. Back in the 80's I had a conversation with Bobby Allison who was in Michigan for the race at MIS. He would fly his plane north and do some short track races before MIS. He said he visited a man in Wisconsin who built Buick V6 nascar engines. The story goes that he tried Mobil 1 on the dyno and noticed that the oil temp. had gone down while testing the engine. He first concluded this to be the result of reduced friction. However, valve springs began to fail. These engines are dry sump designs that flood the valve springs with oil to carry the heat away. It turned out that the lower oil temps. recorded were the result of the synthetic oil not being able to transfer heat away from the valve springs as well as the conventional oil did. True or not, that is the story that I was told.

[machoneman]

   While not having to do with camshaft life, I believe this story will interest some of you. Back in the 80's I had a conversation with Bobby Allison who was in Michigan for the race at MIS. He would fly his plane north and do some short track races before MIS. He said he visited a man in Wisconsin who built Buick V6 nascar engines. The story goes that he tried Mobil 1 on the dyno and noticed that the oil temp. had gone down while testing the engine. He first concluded this to be the result of reduced friction. However, valve springs began to fail. These engines are dry sump designs that flood the valve springs with oil to carry the heat away. It turned out that the lower oil temps. recorded were the result of the synthetic oil not being able to transfer heat away from the valve springs as well as the conventional oil did. True or not, that is the story that I was told.

While I believe you heard correctly, I doubt all the 'facts' here. I can understand that syn oil may not have quite the heat dissipation quality of dino oil with the rate of change being quite small, the relationship to spring failure is very suspect. Teams in NASCAR were starting to use valve cover oilers then in an attempt to 'cover' for incipient spring weakening and failure, not the other way around (i.e. mere heat dissipation). Even in the 80's syn oil use grew to where all teams today (and for years now) exclusively use syn oil.  So, we must ask ourselves, if dino oil is 'better', why do no teams use it anymore? 

In that era as rpms climbed in all forms of auto racing, spring life was short in many cases. Race teams from drag to oval to track racing struggled with spring failures and subsequent engine destruction. Engine shops even I ran out of were bedeviled even in in the mid-to-late 70's with chronic failures across many brands.  Today we have excellent and long-lived springs for all kinds of applications but only due to heavy tech analysis, newer and better spring materials and lots of dead 'test' mules. 

[Katz427]

I don't know about the first synthetic oils, that statement from Allison may well have been true. A friend whose cousin worked ( maybe still works) for an Xfinity team has told me they use a synthetic oil because of the lower pumping loss, higher temperature without breaking down, and better heat transfer especially for valve springs. Now keep in mind were talking about 30 years difference, and a lot has changed.
Bobby Allison.told us, once." We don't call it cheating, son! Just that at the moment they know a little bit more than we do."

[67428GT500]

Kendall AKA Brad Penn AKA Penn Grade is one of the best products out there for those of us with flat tappets. I am still running the break in straight 30 wt at 400 miles. I have 80lbs cold and 40 at idle hot. Brad Penn also offers a semi-synthetic as well.
                                                                                                    -Keith

[stroked67]

VR1 20w50 hi zinc formula with a WIX 51515R filter is what i run in my 463 solid roller. Workin great so far.