Hmm

[turbohunter]

https://www.bloombergquint.com/pursuits/ford-debuts-most-powerful-mustang-ever-2020-ford-shelby-gt500

[chilly460]

Should be quite the ride, supercharger should fill out the lack of low rpm power in the flat plane motor. 

I ran one of those Hellcats (well, I had a nice view of him after the launch), and it was insane watching a guy run 10.60s in a car that he drove there and weighed 4400lbs.  Imagine the GT500 will easily be a 10sec car assuming it can hook at all. 

[cjshaker]

I was reading about this today. No manual transmission available. The end of the Mustang as far as I'm concerned. How can you have a performance car and not have a manual as at least an option? I realize the power output probably exceeds any manual trans and clutch that would hold up under a warranty, but I'm sick of hearing about "performance cars" with launch control, 20 speed automatics and piddle shifters. Might as well sit in the damn stands and control it with a joystick.

[gdaddy01]

thank you , Doug

[AlanCasida]

You said it, Doug! I also saw that the new Ranger is only available with a ten(yes count 'em, ten) speed automatic. I won't be buying either. 

[67428GT500]

I grew up on a manual transmission. Driving in Commiefornia 91 fwy traffic gets old in a hurry. However, a performance vehicle with an automatic just seems out of place to me. I'm just old I guess.

[cjshaker]

You said it, Doug! I also saw that the new Ranger is only available with a ten(yes count 'em, ten) speed automatic. I won't be buying either. 

Alan, I almost started a post about the Ranger. Another strike in my book. Basically a near full size truck, loaded with crap, only 1 engine available, no manual...and starts out at $35,000. Every comment I've seen says and feels the same way you and I do. Makes you wonder what moron did the marketing research for the thing, and how they totally ignored the vast consensus of potential buyers about wanting another small (affordable) truck. I finally had to park my '95 Ranger, with 217k miles, about 2 months ago, then went out and found a '99 well maintained one owner with 95k miles, and a stick. That will be my daily for the next 10-15 years. They can keep the new Ranger.

[chilly460]

We are enthusiasts, not the populace.  If you look at the full size trucks today that people are driving around, they're loaded to the gills...so why wouldn't the smaller trucks follow this lead?  My 2017 F150 has rubber floormats and is about as low as I could go, and it still has full smart phone integration as standard equipment. 

I do 100% agree that not having a manual is ridiculous in the GT500.  That said, have to think it's almost impossible to build a trans that will work with bounds of a warranty. 

[e philpott]

the 10 speed auto will "walk the dog" on that manual transmission of the same version in the 1/4 mile and I mean walk the dog but the world is changing fast

[turbohunter]

I’m glad to see you guys think the same as I do.
I’m not going into debt or spending the cash for these new expensive ass deals that you can fall asleep in (actually happened with a friend of mine and his Tesla) and they drive for you.
As far as the mustangs go I’d rather have the older manual shift cars. Then you’re really driving.
Basically automatics are for commuting, manuals are for driving.
Although I did commute for years in my 4 speed trucks. The granny works well in LA traffic.
Edit
I’m LOLing as I think about the automatic in Jays mustang and that commuting comment. Oops.

[mike7570]

I grew up on a manual transmission. Driving in Commiefornia 91 fwy traffic gets old in a hurry. However, a performance vehicle with an automatic just seems out of place to me. I'm just old I guess.

To this day my left leg is stronger than my right leg. LOL  Drove a F250 7.5 diesel with manual 5spd not only on the 91 but the 57, 5 and 22 freeways, I mean parking lots!

[e philpott]

Some of these newer cars "automatic " transmissions are now automatically shifted Manuals with Torque converters instead of Clutch and also have dual counter shafts for the extra gears where each counter shaft has its own set of gears it works together with , things are getting so complicated anymore

[jayb]

I’m LOLing as I think about the automatic in Jays mustang and that commuting comment. Oops.

I like commuting down the quarter mile with my automatic cars 

[Joe-JDC]

If the point of owning a new fast car that is the quickest around, then getting from point A to B IS quicker with the automatic in today's vehicles.  I still have stick cars, but there is no way I can shift quicker than the newer 6-8-10 speed automatics.  I'm with Jay, I won a lot more races with an automatic in my Mach I than I ever did with 4 speed.  Joe-JDC

[Heo]

I grew up on a manual transmission. Driving in Commiefornia 91 fwy traffic gets old in a hurry. However, a performance vehicle with an automatic just seems out of place to me. I'm just old I guess.

To this day my left leg is stronger than my right leg. LOL  Drove a F250 7.5 diesel with manual 5spd not only on the 91 but the 57, 5 and 22 freeways, I mean parking lots!

My left leg to. first drowe the farm tractor from age 9 then most manual cars.
Until i meet  my wife and started to drive her Mercedeses with Auto trans

[cjshaker]

If the point of owning a new fast car that is the quickest around, then getting from point A to B IS quicker with the automatic in today's vehicles. 

Joe, no argument about modern autos being faster, and yes, they are more consistent in any vehicle, but the point is that they are taking the "driving" part out of it. With modern launch/traction controls, you just stomp the pedal and let the car do everything. It's like a live video game, which I guess is fitting with todays younger generation.

Talking about taking the "driving" part out of it, that's ultimately where we're headed anyway, with autonomous cars.

And remember, all this amazing technology comes at a huge price...as in dollars. Not just in the initial purchase price, but the cost of repairs on any modern vehicle are insane. And then realize that hardly anyone can do those repairs by themselves anymore, which auto manufacturers were trying to accomplish through the court systems anyway. I realize that's just where we are in society, but I don't have to like it..lol

[turbohunter]

We’re just a bunch of knuckle draggers.

[Machspeed]

I wonder if any of the aftermarket guys will see a need to make kits to convert some of these newer vehicles over to manual? With today's youth you could market it as an anti theft kit.

[Katz427]

From what little ,I heard, the transmission choice , a twin disc clutch computer shifted was the only option that showed reliable in testing. Let's face it, they don't make these cars today with FE gear jammers in mind. It's a lost "art" for the most part. In another 3-4 years we will tell the car, the destination, and the car will take us there, while watching videos of past FE Reunions.

[Heo]

Here is talk about banning privateowned cars
when the self driving cars is up and running
so the government is going to tell the car your
destination.....thats a scary future in my book

[TomP]

Some of these newer cars "automatic " transmissions are now automatically shifted Manuals with Torque converters instead of Clutch and also have dual counter shafts for the extra gears where each counter shaft has its own set of gears it works together with , things are getting so complicated anymore

No torque pervertor, they are a manual tranny with two sets of gears each set with a clutch. When it shifts one clutch is disengaged from it's gear set while the other gear set is already engaged... there are videos showing it easier than describing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8aGgSbtoJE

[cjshaker]

In another 3-4 years we will tell the car, the destination, and the car will take us there,....

On the bright side, I guess thugs and gang members will have to reside to bicycles for 'ride-by' shootings. Should make them easier to catch, you just need to keep a rock handy.

[Falcon67]

If the point of owning a new fast car that is the quickest around, then getting from point A to B IS quicker with the automatic in today's vehicles. 

Joe, no argument about modern autos being faster, and yes, they are more consistent in any vehicle, but the point is that they are taking the "driving" part out of it. With modern launch/traction controls, you just stomp the pedal and let the car do everything. It's like a live video game, which I guess is fitting with todays younger generation.

Driving a car that covers the first 60' in less than 1.5 seconds and is covering ground at 125+ in 600', I don't need any distractions from a shifter, clutch, etc.  Same with the door car and the air shifter - it's a safety thing to me.  If you are really pushing it up on the tire, you are on the edge of control.  Coupled with the concentration required to over take - or prepare to be overtaken - at 100+ MPH and only 10' apart, you need the car to be doing it's thing without bothering the driver.  Just my take on it.  Manuals are fun, maybe fun at a TnT.  Loading and unloading the tires and moving around on the track, save that for the no prep jocks.  Video games don't put your ass into the wall in a blink and tear up $20,000 worth of race car.  We had that once this year - some fat guy with $$$$$ an a 5.xx second 1/8 mile car put a 16 year old unskilled driver in it, first pass the car is in several pieces and that kid may never get back in a race car.  Sorry for the rant, but now that I've spent a lot of time in a really competitive fast car, "video game" is an insult to the level of concentration required to execute a safe and successful pass in these cars.  We don't bring in "show car" old school drag cars because Super Pro is running .2 or better quicker than anything they bring.  150~160 MPH in 660' is same-same every day thing.  What used to be fast as "low 11s" for the footbrake class now runs in the 9s and low 10s just to keep up.   

[AlanCasida]

I see a lot of talk about how fast these cars will be in the 1/4 mile and how that auto trans will help and no doubt it will but I view these cars as more a road car that handles corners real well. That's why they put IRS in it. So having a car that handles superbly but has an automatic in it is kind of silly. I don't know if you can manually shift through all ten gears or not.  I guess I am getting old but buying a street car with 700+ hp falls into the "Mine is bigger than yours" category. My '04 Mach 1 with it's paltry 305hp will boil the tires through two(manual!) gears and is speed limited to 151 mph. What am I going to do with over twice that much.  Now a race car that you happen to drive on the street is a whole other story. In actuality I doubt we'll be seeing a lot of them at the track...any track any time soon.

[chilly460]

Yep, it's gotten to the point that it's silly.  I got rid of my 2013 GT because just driving sanely, it was kind of boring.  For it to be fun I had to crank it up, and although I wouldn't say it was fast, it was fast enough that in today's world I'd have gotten a reckless.  The new GT500 will have 300hp more than that car, just no way to utilize that car around town without getting in trouble. 

That said, I'd like to drive one for sure, guarantee they're fun despite denuding it with the dual clutch.  There are plenty of guys beating on Hellcats/Demons/Etc with IRS, they'll figure out how to run the GT500s on the 1/4

[AlanCasida]

Yep, it's gotten to the point that it's silly.  I got rid of my 2013 GT because just driving sanely, it was kind of boring.  For it to be fun I had to crank it up, and although I wouldn't say it was fast, it was fast enough that in today's world I'd have gotten a reckless.  The new GT500 will have 300hp more than that car, just no way to utilize that car around town without getting in trouble. 

It's funny you should say that because I feel the same way about my Mach1. Just driving around it's not even real comfortable for me either. I guess that's why after 15 yrs I only have 39,000 miles on it.

[cjshaker]

Sorry for the rant, but now that I've spent a lot of time in a really competitive fast car, "video game" is an insult to the level of concentration required to execute a safe and successful pass in these cars.

Chris, we were talking about the new Shelby, and modern muscle cars in general, not your actual race car. There's a big difference between the two. I wouldn't call your rail or your door car a "video game" ride, so no need to feel insulted.

[turbohunter]

Yeah I don’t think anybody was aiming there Chris. Just yakkin’ About driving cars. We may have gotten side tracked a bit when I mentioned Jays car because of the silly statement I made about commuting. Just thought that it was a funny deal to think of Jays bad ass ride as a commuter. But as Doug said we were just talking driving experience not racing. Whole ‘nuther ball of wax.

[Katz427]

Well, since the new GT 500 has a 7 speed with a paddle shifter, it all comes down to a finger. Of course I'll just keep the old Ranchero,( it is paid for). Would like to put and FE under the bonnet. I have thought about leasing a new Ranger. Still have my 2004, which has been very reliable.

[RustyCrankshaft]

I agree that they really missed the mark on the new Ranger, at least for me. But the GM equivalent also has gotten pretty big over the last few years. The new Ranger equivalent to my 01 Ranger is almost 2 feet longer. I always liked the Rangers because they were a mid-size that was built like a real truck. My 01 has done more work than most guys 1 ton diesel trucks and you can still park it downtown easy. I was going to get a new one, but I think I'll just put an engine and trans in mine and keep it when it gets tired. 262k on the SOHC 4.0 and 5R55E so far. Starting to leak a little, but it just matches everything else I own now!

There are a lot of really cool, fast cars on the dealer lots new again. But a lot of them are sorta boring to me. Unless it's a dedicated race car, I'm more interested in the driving experience and manual trans cars are just more fun. At least for me. Who wants to be diving into a corner and have the car take over and drive thru it for you?

Besides, I'm always worried someone will plug their iPhone into me fancy new car and something goes wrong and suddenly Rob Zombie replaces the suspension control program.

On a more serious note, there are some REAL safety issues with this new technology. Fiatslyer (AKA Chrysler) had a security problem with their WiFi system and someone with basic skills and a VIN number could sit on their couch while you're driving your car and tell the electric power steering to go full lock left with a few mouse clicks. I saw it happen in real life a couple years ago - it was a test deal because the security issue was raised and Chrysler said it couldn't happen so at least the car was on a test track - this time.

[Stangman]

Hmm there’s something that I never thought about. That’s messed up.

[Falcon67]

Chris, we were talking about the new Shelby, and modern muscle cars in general, not your actual race car. There's a big difference between the two. I wouldn't call your rail or your door car a "video game" ride, so no need to feel insulted.

Ah, my bad.  Sorry if I took that the wrong way LOL.  I will say that over the years, the issue with some of the really high power cars is similar - any jack leg can go buy one.  On the track, they are not necessarily sprug for a drag strip so there have been handling issues either down track (spinning, moving around) or on the top end when lifting and unloading the chassis.  Can easily bite an inexperienced driver.  People that have a handle on it can really move them along. 

Note that both xHRA groups have a "Street Legal" type bracket class that allows unmodified 2008 up (IHRA, NHRA may be similar) unaltered production vehicle to run 10.00 1/4 / 6.50 1/8 and < 135 MPH to compete without additional safety equipment.  Unless convertible or T-top, then a bar or cage is required.  PPE is still required AFAIK (Helmet, etc).

[plovett]

It's funny.  I learned to drive a "stick" on a tractor way before legal driving age.  My first few cars were sticks.  The very first was a '69 Cougar with a manual 3 speed.  Then, when I decided I wanted to actually go fast I switched to automatics.  For a track car with a scienced-out suspension, slicks, and a good surface, a heavily modified manual transmission might be the way to go.  For a street/strip car with DOT tires on street surfaces, an auto is almost always faster.

So I like automatics.  BUT,  now that I am older and not so concerned with ET,  I am thinking about switching back to manuals.  They are fun and remind me of my youth.  Plus, only 1% of thieves can steal them.

I think modern automatics have been around since the 1930's or 1940's?  So they have no bearing on the automated car issue.  None whatsoever.  I do agree it's not going to be legal to drive your own car in the future, and that is to the detriment of mankind.  It will be mandated for "safety" reasons.  Just a matter of time, unless the current generation decides to stand up for themselves.  Unfortunately, they seem to welcome the relinquishing of their autonomy.

I don't know why Doug and Tom think driving a stick is related to their masculinity.   It is pretty silly.  My girlfriend drives a manual just fine, but it's not a fast car. 

JMO,

paulie

[turbohunter]

I don't know why Doug and Tom think driving a stick is related to their masculinity. 

paulie

Hmmmm?

[Joe-JDC]

I don't especially equate driving a standard transmission with masculinity, either.  My 72 year old wife can drive our 5 speed mustang GT, LX, and has driven standard transmissions all her life. She is not masculine at all.  Had to get an automatic when she was pregnant back in 1968 due to not being able to get the seat close enough for her feet to depress the clutch in our '66 mustang.  Bought matching 5 speed Mustang GTs in 1986, one for her and one for me, and still have one.  My '55 Thunderbird is a standard with over drive.  Joe-JDC

[Falcon67]

Ditto - my wife prefers a manual.  Don't have one around now, but would be fun to have a play car with a stick. 

[cjshaker]

I don't know why Doug and Tom think driving a stick is related to their masculinity.

paulie

Hey Paulie, please show me where I said that, or even alluded to it. I prefer manuals because, for one, they are funner IMO, 2, they are more reliable, and 3, they are generally cheaper to work on and/or replace should the need arise. You're the one who brought "masculinity" into this.

[plovett]

I don't know why Doug and Tom think driving a stick is related to their masculinity.

paulie

Hey Paulie, please show me where I said that, or even alluded to it. I prefer manuals because, for one, they are funner IMO, 2, they are more reliable, and 3, they are generally cheaper to work on and/or replace should the need arise. You're the one who brought "masculinity" into this.

Nope.  You did.  "neutermatics".  Tom does it all the time, as well.  Not a big deal.  Just something funny.

[sideoilercat]

 Ranger too big?

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a25998560/ford-confirms-new-small-pickup/

[cjshaker]

I don't know why Doug and Tom think driving a stick is related to their masculinity.

paulie

Hey Paulie, please show me where I said that, or even alluded to it. I prefer manuals because, for one, they are funner IMO, 2, they are more reliable, and 3, they are generally cheaper to work on and/or replace should the need arise. You're the one who brought "masculinity" into this.

Nope.  You did.  "neutermatics".  Tom does it all the time, as well.  Not a big deal.  Just something funny.

I suppose you're right. I do make jokes about it, much like the light-hearted banter I make to friends with different makes, but certainly not intended to be taken seriously. So if I've missed an opportunity to offend someone about automatics, I'll just leave this...

[plovett]

No worries, Doug.  And we're not going to do the "who's more offended on the internet" thing.   

paulie

edit:  I just had an old memory pop into my head.  One time we were doing sexual harassment training at work (how not to) and we were going through all these scenarios and had to identify who would feel harassed or offended.   I raised my hand and asked, "what if no one feels offended?"  The teacher looked at me like I was a real live Nazi.  LOL!

[HarleyJack17]

  That automatic pic/joke was kind of funny.
New High Horse cars are auto's for a reason. Most run some type of boost. All have electronic traction control playing into the mix.  You can't remotely tame the kind of power these cars are making with a manual....not your everyday person that is.  Folks with drive time on similar rigs, sure, but that is not the main buyer of these cars.  A prime example is a friend of mine running a turbo'd 302 stroker.  Manual trans in a '99 era Mustang.  It makes insane power given what it is(700+), but he can not get on it. He can't control it when the boost comes on strong...it does what it wants, like an unbridled honey badger.
Super chargers are more predictable but again, at these power levels it goes from mild to wild, quick, fast, and in a hurry.  That is where auto's "help".  Add to that, winding roads, and bumps, and a direct link to power with a stick(ya know the stuff that is fun to drive in) and it is a recipe for disaster.

Honestly I do not believe there has not been a "ban" bandwagon to jump on for these cars.  Maybe I will be able to afford one before there is!
It is cool to see the new "horsepower" wars of my time, but I am not sure how an average Joe is supposed to afford one of them along with the other bills we all have.  Add me to list of "No Fan" of the new hackable tech in cars.  Options may be nice but if you need your car to park itself for you because you lack the skill....you should not be driving!  Don't get me started on the drivers test to get a license here either.....recently both my kids took it...what a joke.

My final rant is with all the tech, why not figure out a way to stop texting and driving.  If there is one government mandated action in existence I would fully support this may be it.  The majority, by far, of the vehicles that I pass everyday on my 12 minute commute, the drivers are texting on their smart phones.  Figure out a way to scramble/eliminate that.   

[cjshaker]

paulie

edit:  I just had an old memory pop into my head.  One time we were doing sexual harassment training at work (how not to) and we were going through all these scenarios and had to identify who would feel harassed or offended.   I raised my hand and asked, "what if no one feels offended?"  The teacher looked at me like I was a real live Nazi.  LOL!

Ha! We have to go through this stuff all the time where I work, like once a month. Funny thing is, the harassment REALLY starts after everybody walks out of the 'training'. The jokes that fly for the next few hours would get most people fired, or at least reprimanded, at your typical job. Nobody gets offended though. A good sense of humor makes for a more light-hearted day when the job gets brutal in the winter time. Other departments are more "sensitive". I wouldn't last long in those 

[Drew Pojedinec]

*shrugs*
I built my vehicles for reliability....
A c6 transmission that is built well is hardly fragile, and a fraction of the cost of a decent toploader.
I also don't use power brakes, I try to avoid power steering for the same reason.  I also don't have any interest in air conditioning.
who cares tho. 

Manuals are fun, it makes you think your vehicle is more powerful than it really is since you are constantly unloading the drivetrain.
Doug likes manuals.... cool.  I dig it, they are super fun. 
Tom feels the need to bring up automatics being not masculine EVERY time there is a post where someone mentions a transmission.  Tiresome?  sure, can I continue to ignore it and just feel bad for his insecurities?  sure, no problem.

But again..... who cares.

I'm just happy that the Big three are at least trying to push the envelop and build cars that are interesting, and have a ton of power.  I mean, if they weren't, this thread wouldn't exist.  more exciting is that they aren't GT cars that I need to wait on a list for, or pay a quarter million for.  Even a fella with humble earning could in theory have one of these.
I'd prefer to be in this situation than in a 1973 type era of anemic horsepower out of what should have been decent engines.

[plovett]

Well said, Drew.  Yeah, Tom needs to get a girlfriend.

When it comes to transmissions, I always say I swing both ways. 

JMO,

paulie

[chilly460]

For me personally, manuals are just a bunch more fun, to a certain point where there's just enough power that it doesn't matter.  It was night and day when I put the manual in my Merc. 

My '01 Lightning made 400hp at the wheels, was pretty quick for what it was, but boring to drive.  I've ridden in and driven 750hp 460 stroker combo'd cars, to be honest I was glad it was an auto as they were a handful.   It'd be fun, but trying to row through the gears with a 750hp street car on street tires and stiff suspension in a modern all around road car would be useless. 

And stepping away from performance applications, it pains me that we can't get manuals in "normal" cars anymore.  Had a bunch of 70s FSeries with NP435s in them, little Rangers with sticks and the crappy 2.9L, Volkswagen for a time....it's much nicer driving "underpowered" vehicles with a stick as you can decide to hang on a few hundred extra rpm when needed. 

[plovett]

I am going to make sure my boys know how to drive a stick, even if I have to borrow my ex-wife's 2000 5 speed manual Saturn, or my girlfriend's 5 speed manual Chevy Sonic.  Sticks are SO feminine!  Of course it IS 2019 so ANYTHING goes, right Doug??? 

For 1/4 mile drag racing, I will teach my boys how to use my manual valve body C6.  As for masculinity, there are other measures.   

paulie

[Drew Pojedinec]

Funny you mention the work truck chilly.
I’ve always thought I was backwards in how I think about it.
I always preferred manuals in my heavy work trucks and autos in performance vehicles.

I’m weird tho....

[cjshaker]

I’m weird tho....

Shoot, that pretty much describes everyone here, Drew

It IS irritating that you can't even get a stick in a new truck these days. I'm not even sure if it's an option anymore, I haven't seen one in several years. It used to be that was the best choice for durability...still is IMO. New automatics are so complicated that the chance of something, just one little thing going wrong, that jacks up the whole system, is not a rare occurance. Then you can get into the whole 'traction sensitive all-wheel-drive' crap, which is great for todays inexperienced (texting) drivers, or sketchy road conditions, not so great for people who have to pay when something goes wrong. But these are pretty much all disposable cars these days. Just the world we live in now.

Drew, no argument about a C6 being cheaper than a complete manual set-up, but that relates to our older cars. Ever priced a new trans replacement, or even a rebuild? They are insanely expensive. But I have that beef with everything on newer cars; the price to pay for technology I guess. Compare the ratio between the price of a new car and an average house in the '60s, vs today. Using my Dads house as an example (realizing that housing prices differ in different areas), he built it for $21k in 1961. You could buy nearly 8 FULL SIZE cars back then for that price (1962 Galaxie 500 4dr sedan costing $2700). Today you could build his same house for $120k, but the average cost of a family size car is $35k. That's a ratio drop of well over half. Crazy to think about when put in perspective.

[fryedaddy]

If the point of owning a new fast car that is the quickest around, then getting from point A to B IS quicker with the automatic in today's vehicles.  I still have stick cars, but there is no way I can shift quicker than the newer 6-8-10 speed automatics.  I'm with Jay, I won a lot more races with an automatic in my Mach I than I ever did with 4 speed.  Joe-JDC

im like any other man,i like changing gears while driving a hotrod,it just seems more manly to say yea its got a toploader in it.but i switched my 4 speed out for a c6 because i missed a gear at the strip and it cost me my first 1st place win.its hard to beat a good automatic,but it is fun and manly to run a stick shift