Author Topic: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.  (Read 12810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« on: January 10, 2019, 06:42:33 PM »
The class rules are finally out.      https://www.hotrod.com/events/engine-masters-challenge/     


FE might be a contender if the 427 MR is allowed, or 428CJ.    Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2019, 07:00:08 PM »
I saw that too.  I'll bet they won't allow the Medium Riser.  If they did, they should allow a single 4V High Riser.  I love a Cobra Jet, but by those rules a 460 would be hard to beat with the power peak at 6300.  Now, too bad they won't let a 352 run as a small block.  That could be fun and interesting!!
Blair Patrick

Stangman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2019, 07:20:52 PM »
Why wont they let the medium riser in, its stock and was in stock vehicles. It would be nice if we could kick alittle ass!!!

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4812
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2019, 07:43:28 PM »
TP or HR would be legal wouldn't it?
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

Stangman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2019, 09:09:50 PM »
If there not going to let medium risers in why would they let TP or HRs in. They didnt come in any stock street vehicles did they. 

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2019, 09:41:58 PM »
The '65-'66-'67-'68 Galaxies/Mercury '66-'67 Fairlanes/Comets '68 Cougars had 427 Engines, but they state the heads are specific to block you say you want to build.  A well ported C6AE-R, C8-J, or C80E-N head would work well with their 10% stroke allowance.  A 428 PI/CJ with Scat 4.150/4.250/or RPM 4.375 crankshaft and 6.800" rods could be possible with 428 build.  The 10.5 compression ratio, .600" camshaft lift will level the playing field a lot.  A 427+.060 with 4.150 stroke would be awesome with MR heads.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2019, 09:42:15 PM »
Medium riser should make it in since it came in street cars. Run the casting numbers by the rules guys for an answer.  Tunnel Port and Hi Riser were specifically mentioned as no no at the PRI roll out.
Looks like a 385/BB Scrub show in Big Block. 385 might be hampered by big bore short stroke vs Scrub... To win you need to make a lot of torque down low, which usually means a long arm.. The more cubes you have the bigger the penalty when they compute a score. A 425 to 450 cube with a 4 inch or more stroke probably has an advantage if the heads are roughly equal.

Who has the best stock iron small block head 68 and back?.

PS, JDC prepped y block heads are pretty damn good vs the other small blocks
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 10:14:45 PM by Royce »
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2019, 10:01:25 PM »
Really depends on what they consider a "high performance" specialty OEM head, which are specifically called out as not legal.  There is a LOT of interpretation allowed by the rules makers on that.  Since the high riser package was only installed in a very few vehicles it would not pass muster for sure.  The medium riser has a better chance.  The CJ should be a shoe in and competitive with over 20,000 production figures unless the "fix is in".

thatdarncat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1865
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2019, 10:18:58 PM »

Who has the best stock iron small block head 68 and back?.

PS, JDC prepped y block heads are pretty damn good vs the other small blocks

The requirement to have a currently available cataloged header for a passenger car application using the claimed engine might be a problem for a Y-Block, and probably many other engines, but I haven't looked to see what is available out there. Maybe there are some good fenderwell exit headers that would qualify? Might be a good time to get friendly with a header manufacturer.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2019, 11:13:48 PM »
There were 64 Galaxies with single 4V High Risers.  The lightweight and TBolts were not the only cars that got them.  They are in the NHRA class guide from 64 in regular passenger cars.  If they let the MR run, they should let the HR run.  Tunnel Ports never came in production cars at all.  I could see why they would be a no-way.  Seems to me if a BBC could run a square port HP head, or a 429 an R head, the MR and HR should get to run. 

Too bad they don't allow epoxy and brass.  I'd take a 428 from the heart of hell if they did.  I have the leftovers from my iron head Super Stock stuff that went 9.30s back 10+ years ago.
Blair Patrick

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2019, 11:27:12 PM »

Who has the best stock iron small block head 68 and back?.

PS, JDC prepped y block heads are pretty damn good vs the other small blocks

The requirement to have a currently available cataloged header for a passenger car application using the claimed engine might be a problem for a Y-Block, and probably many other engines, but I haven't looked to see what is available out there. Maybe there are some good fenderwell exit headers that would qualify? Might be a good time to get friendly with a header manufacturer.

The FPA headers for '55-57 Thunderbird made 595 hp 561 lbft on my 375 Y.  They actually were the best headers tested out of five different sets, including Kaase's 2015 winning engine set.  We tested them back to back on the 2016 winning EMC engine, and because they were so good, I used them on my 2018 engine.  Stan is still making them for the Thunderbirds.  I just bought another set for my second engine build.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

thatdarncat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1865
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2019, 11:57:51 PM »

Who has the best stock iron small block head 68 and back?.

PS, JDC prepped y block heads are pretty damn good vs the other small blocks

The requirement to have a currently available cataloged header for a passenger car application using the claimed engine might be a problem for a Y-Block, and probably many other engines, but I haven't looked to see what is available out there. Maybe there are some good fenderwell exit headers that would qualify? Might be a good time to get friendly with a header manufacturer.

The FPA headers for '55-57 Thunderbird made 595 hp 561 lbft on my 375 Y.  They actually were the best headers tested out of five different sets, including Kaase's 2015 winning engine set.  We tested them back to back on the 2016 winning EMC engine, and because they were so good, I used them on my 2018 engine.  Stan is still making them for the Thunderbirds.  I just bought another set for my second engine build.  Joe-JDC

That's excellent info, thanks.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

fekbmax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2019, 12:10:27 AM »
How about the 406 heads ?
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2019, 06:06:58 AM »
There were 64 Galaxies with single 4V High Risers.  The lightweight and TBolts were not the only cars that got them.  They are in the NHRA class guide from 64 in regular passenger cars.  If they let the MR run, they should let the HR run.  Tunnel Ports never came in production cars at all.  I could see why they would be a no-way.  Seems to me if a BBC could run a square port HP head, or a 429 an R head, the MR and HR should get to run. 

Too bad they don't allow epoxy and brass.  I'd take a 428 from the heart of hell if they did.  I have the leftovers from my iron head Super Stock stuff that went 9.30s back 10+ years ago.

I'm thinking that production volumes of a couple hundred or a thousand won't get past the guards.  Harder to deny an iron rectangular port BBC or a CJ.  Those were cars for the masses.  You should do a Stock Eliminator style CJ - - these rules are right in your wheelhouse.

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 09:07:48 AM »
Actually, when the rules were discussed at PRI, it was mentioned that the Stock Eliminator rules would be used as a guide as to what parts would be acceptable
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 11:36:08 AM »
By reading the rules, it is unclear if all components for the engine have to be set up for a claimed car? For example, if you're claiming a '68 Cobra Jet Mustang, would the oil pan, headers, etc all have to be for that claimed car? Or can you claim a '68 Cobra Jet Mustang engine, '68 4x4 truck oil pan and headers?
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 12:24:25 PM »
That's interesting Royce!  High Risers do run in Stock Eliminator!!
Blair Patrick

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 04:05:16 PM »
I know tunnel ports were verboten,, I thought they mentioned the Hi-Riser in same breath. This will be like NHRA. The rule book is a suggestion. all decisions are final.  The rules will get made on the fly.
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 05:07:06 PM »
Seems to me that a high riser would operate up past the RPM range of testing. In an A/S Fairlane, they only allow .500" lift, correct? If you take it and give it another .100" lift in this scenario you'd really have a screamer, but would not fall into the range of the scoring criteria. 428 would probably fall into the range better? Especially being that torque matters equal to horsepower as far as scoring is concerned.
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2019, 05:20:25 PM »
10% stroke would put it about 4.160.  That would be good for the torque.  The head would be so much better than the CJ.  It just might run with the BBC.
Blair Patrick

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2019, 05:37:07 PM »
Hey guys, its a lot of conjecture and I don't have, as they say, a dog in this hunt but.....

Maybe someone can put together a list of relevant questions to be e-mailed off. Hopefully, a reply won't take too long, allowing those who want to compete to start planning.
Bob Maag

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2019, 06:43:32 PM »
I think I might jump in if the High Riser is allowed.  If it isn't, it  will be a 385 series Ford and BB Chevy show as far as big blocks are concerned.  It takes a High Riser to compete with the rectangle port BBC.  A Cobra Jet head can't get there without epoxy and brass. A 429 with the R head and 10% stroke will be strong, but the exhaust port on those is terrible.  That class will be interesting to see.
Blair Patrick

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2019, 07:24:36 PM »
"R" head won't be legal for the 385 guys - - cutoff is 1968.  They are limited to the T-bird stuff, which might still be OK from a torque perspective.  What if we take the CJ head and go the other way - pull bore and stroke down to reduce cubes since cid is a divisor?

There are other ways to fill a port besides welding and epoxy...

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2019, 08:20:54 PM »
That's true, the R head is out, and the open chamber BBC is also out.  68 and back BBC had closed chambers and don't flow as well......

My thought would be to keep the stroke, since they cap the RPM at 6300.

Damned 400 small block can have inches and 7000 rpm.  That might be a bad hombre if it comes from Guilford, Indiana. 

406 Ford has good bore/stroke but the chamber sucks.  Badly shrouded. 

This bench racing is fun and cheap, LOL.
Blair Patrick

Stangman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1691
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 08:48:41 PM »
Why dont you guys do one together, put all your eggs in one basket and take one for the FE team. I dont know if that sounds dumb, it was just me talking out loud.

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 10:04:07 PM »
Did the 400 SBC come on the scene before '69?  I admit I am a bit unsure about most things SBC, so just asking.  I will try to google it.  The small block Ford is definitely at a handicap for heads pre-'69.   Joe-JDC

PS:  Went to web and found 400 SBC came out in 1970.  350 in 1967, so the 350 can only have a stroke of 3.828 maximum. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:09:15 PM by Joe-JDC »
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2019, 10:18:23 PM »
Hey!  Another good observation.  So the 400 SBC is out.  Max Wedgie could be tough.  Hemi needs compression to really shine.  Hmmmmmm
Blair Patrick

Rory428

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2019, 02:48:19 AM »
Maybe I read the rules wrong, but it said the engine needs to have been introduced in 1968 or earlier. Does that mean everything on the engine is required to be from 1968 or earlier, or only that the engine family had to have been in production by 68? I did not notice anything saying that said casting numbers or date codes were required to be no newer than 1968.1968 was the first year for the 429-460 "385" series engine family, and they were only available as mild "big car" powerplants, until the 429 CJ/SCJ debuted in 1970 for the Torinos and Montego bodystyles, not counting the limited production Boss 429  69 & 70 Mustangs. Looking at the rules, it appears that many changes have been made to try to address some of Jon Kasses ingenuity and imagination. But he always seems to come up with something outside the box, doesn`t he? I think Kasse must have inherited the Smokey Yunick gene, when it comes to creative rulebook interpretation.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Rory428

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1003
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2019, 03:07:00 AM »
A couple of other notes, the rules state maximum compression ratio of 10.5, considering that a 427 High Riser was higher than that, do you think that would eliminate the 1x4 High Riser 427, or could the compression be reduced? Or do you think the rules mean actual compression ratio, rather than factory advertised CR?
Also, since all the factory 426 "Street Hemi" and Race Hemis had 2 4 barrel carbs, and available cast single 4 barrel intake manifolds are required, does that exclude entering a 426 Hemi engine? Although the race Hemi came out in 64, with 12.1 compression and 2 Holleys, and the Street Hemi came with 10.5 CR and dual Carters, in 66, the only single 4 barrel 426 Hemi I am aware of, was a 65 NASCAR Hemi, which I believe was never offered in a production car.
As far as small blocks go, I would think the 340 MoPar would be pretty strong, although a 302 Z/28 engine could be pretty stout as well. maybe a 327/350HP too. Since the Boss 302 didn`t come out until 69, I don`t think a SB Ford will be a player.
1978 Fairmont,FE 427 with 428 crank, 4 speed Jerico best of 9.972@132.54MPH 1.29 60 foot
1985 Mustang HB 331 SB Ford, 4 speed Jerico, best of 10.29@128 MPH 1.40 60 foot.
1974 F350 race car hauler 390 NP435 4 speed
1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan. 428 Cobra Jet, 4 speed Toploader. 12.54@ 108 MPH

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2019, 10:57:55 AM »
Most of the rules are designed to be 'exclusionary or limiting" in nature, meaning they tell you what you cannot do.  Compression is a measured number - you cannot go over that value, but can build anything you wish below that even if the original engine was listed as being higher.  You can build an iron headed Hemi, but it cannot be 12:1, you can build a 429 but it cannot have the D0OE-R CJ head, etc.


I also agree that the traditional SB Chevy could be very competitive, and might be the combination to beat.  The SB Mopar would be tougher since the W2 and late model heads are illegal.  The SB Ford Windsor is not likely to be a player.  I feel like the FE and BB Mopar are in a similar spot.  The BB Chevy probably has a leg up on us.

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2019, 11:49:20 AM »
Sounds like it has gone full circle and geared now towards the Chevy crowd.  Cutting out the  Boss 302/351, 351W/C, 429CJ/SCJ leaves a void in Ford's ability to combat the quicker evolution of the Chevy for the street.  Now they spend two days on the LS, and expect to cover all BB/SB iron headed engines in one day.  What would be neat would be a flood of OLD IRON entrants.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2019, 11:55:42 AM »
I should build a wicked LS entry and dress it out as an FE.  I actually have some local contacts who could probably deliver an absolutely evil scrub to that deal if they were so inclined.  Or maybe build an FE and dress it out as an LS & see if they noticed????

shady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1002
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2019, 12:02:20 PM »
Maybe Hemi Joel with a straight eight 420 Duesenburg. Stroked & bored, sheet metal intake, two fours, zoomies...
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
2022 FERR cool FE Winner
2023 FERR cool FE Winner

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 09:43:11 PM »
Historically, it takes a High Riser, or an SK Medium Riser, to go head to head with a rectangle port BBC.....at least in the world I came from.  Stock and Super Stock are a pretty good yardstick for comparing the factory iron.  The  A, B, C and D Super Stockers, and A and B Stockers show this.  You won't see a Cobra Jet until SS/E, and in Stock they run much lighter than the 427/425 and 396/375 Chevrolets.  Still, with the 10% stroke in the rules, the CJ combo would get a longer arm than the Chevs, which would help from 3500 to 6300.  Without a big roller, or RPM and using the closed chamber head, the BBCs may not be invincible.  For sure, they will be ultra competitive.  I am going to look through my stash and see if I have anything interesting in the corner for a 428 that fits the rules.
Blair Patrick

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2019, 07:46:38 AM »
Kind of what I figured too.  You are probably the best chance we've got considering the number of SS CJ pieces you've done - I have minimal experience with competitive iron headed engines since I went aluminum some twenty years ago.

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2019, 09:22:21 AM »
NHRA allowed the aluminum replacement Edelbrock stuff in 2004.  In some cases it is not worth the weight penalty, but some engines really benefit.  In Super Stock, the closed chamber BBC got better chambers that help them alot.  Our 428s got a little more runner volume and more meat in the ports.  Everyone got easier material, and availability in Super Stock.  The Stockers are kinda funny.  An iron headed 390 with a C6-R head can be better than the Edelbrock when you figure in a .481/.490 cam and 120 lbs. more weight for the Ed head.

Anyway, back to iron and EMC......epoxy and brass can really make the stuff work.  There are benfits to porting, but some places would be better filled.  Just going bigger doesn't do it.  The .600 lift and no runner volume rule to fight does help, but it helps everyone else too.

I think I have some old Super Stock stuff that I kept.....not sure why til now.....from when we had to run iron, that has not been filled and welded.  It would be a good place to start.  I just wonder if the N head will be considered legal.  The High Riser could really shine if they allow it based on regular production Galaxies, which did happen.  That would be our best bet.  I appreciate your compliment Barry.  I should have my dyno going here by spring.  That is a must for being competitive in a dyno contest. If I do it, I ain't gonna play around......I will put the long clip in and file the pin.  It will all depend on what they allow.  If the High Riser is out, I would still think about a CJ.  If the N head is out, the FE is in serious danger of being non competitive.  I also think if they would let a 352 run as a small block, we would have good chances with the C4-G or EDC and a small engine.  If they make it run as a big block at 360 or so cubes, it will be disadvantaged compared to a SBC which is allowed 500 more rpm.  I still scratch my head a little......there is no legal 350 head that can get on the same planet as a worked G head in terms of flow.  That might be a way to go...... I think a long armed 352 at 400 inches might do better with a G head in the "average per inch" game than a CJ anyway.  The carb limits also favor 400 inches.  That may be a better way.....
Blair Patrick

TomP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 870
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2019, 05:05:45 PM »
They could have simplified those rules by saying "Engine must be made by Chevrolet."

 It appears they went out of their way to give Chevy the advantage it needs.

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3851
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2019, 07:05:21 PM »
They could have simplified those rules by saying "Engine must be made by Chevrolet."

 It appears they went out of their way to give Chevy the advantage it needs.

But, but....don't they always???
Bob Maag

RJP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2019, 12:16:37 PM »
They could have simplified those rules by saying "Engine must be made by Chevrolet."

 It appears they went out of their way to give Chevy the advantage it needs.
Thats about the only way they can win. ::) But wouldn't it be funny if all the Chevys lost...again?

mbrunson427

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 920
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2019, 12:35:44 PM »
I'm also interested in what the "future builders spec class" rules might be. It says rules TBD. Sounds like a potentially interesting deal.

If it is what I think it is...... hand guys a pile of all the same parts and see who can make the best engine with the parts on-hand. This is what I always thought Engine Masters should have been. However, then everybody would be building some form of a 350 chevy and it would put everyone to sleep. Didn't they do something similar to that in past years?
Mike Brunson
BrunsonPerformance.com

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2019, 02:23:28 PM »
Quote
I'm also interested in what the "future builders spec class" rules might be. It says rules TBD. Sounds like a potentially interesting deal.

The talk was that a long block would be delivered to the builder, then they get to make the cam and intake selection and do any fine tuning.   The engine type was up in the air but dollars to donuts it will be the dreaded 350..  Although, I am sure they were looking for someone to pony up to donating the long blocks, so who knows..  Maybe a 302
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2019, 02:30:17 PM »
I would volunteer to forward all the questions that are coming up here on what is and is not legal as far as FE parts and combos are concerned.  I can compile a list and send it as one email. 

Something around 400 inches with a longish stroke and good head would be my guess on the best scoring combo..  If we could run against the small scrub so much the better.
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2019, 03:17:26 PM »
Yes, I agree with around 400 cubic inches with iron heads.  My choice after looking at all the possibilities would be a declared 360 FE with an offset ground 390 crankshaft to 3.850" stroke, 2.200 rod journal, and 4.110" bore.  Should be fairly inexpensive to duplicate, and with 10.5 compression, and 6300 rpm with .600" camshaft, the torque and hp should not overrun the head flow.  4.110x 3.850" x 6.2832 = 408.625 CI, or 409 FE!  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2019, 03:25:29 PM »
Just declare it as a 1966 410 merc engine.  I was working up the math on that one this morning....

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2019, 03:26:43 PM »
They could have simplified those rules by saying "Engine must be made by Chevrolet."

that would be the LS class

CaptCobrajet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2019, 06:07:15 PM »
I already sent an email with four questions. We'll see what they come back with.  The worst case scenario for me is a 64 model 352.  4.06 x 3.797.  I like the G head better than the R head on the 410s and later 390s.  I could reuse the crank in a 390 Super Stocker if I had to.  Fingers crossed on the HR, and somewhat crossed for a 428 CJ.  The 410 wouldn't be bad, or a 428 passenger car for that matter, but I think those size engines run out of cylinder head versus the BBC.  I asked them to consider letting any engines 375 cube or less run under the small block RPM rules......
Blair Patrick

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2019, 07:38:25 PM »
I probably asked the same questions :)

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2019, 09:35:44 PM »
You guys are ahead of me..
I did asked how they determine what is a small block and what is a big block. The true big blocks in my view are the B and RB Mopar, BBC and 385.  My knowledge on Buicks and Olds is imperfect so not sure where they shake out, and of course Pontiac and FE are really Medium blocks.. 375 Cubic inches would keep the true big blocks out of the picture and let the mediums play both sides of the fence..   Probably too much to hope for.. 

What is the potential of a 396 vs an FE. Would a W engine have a play?
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2019, 10:16:01 PM »
I asked the big block vs small block question too.

Starting to lean toward the .060 over 410 combination.  Gives me a 4.110 bore and maybe a stroke change to 4.090 crank cut for 6.8 BBC rod journals.  Gets us to 434 cubes using readily available parts and hits the compression target with minimal head cutting and a flat top piston.  Could build this one cheap & fast other than the heads.  The 352 would still be better if they let it rip as a small block....

blykins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4812
    • View Profile
    • Lykins Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2019, 03:29:42 PM »
Y'all need one of my enclosed cam tunnels for factory blocks!
Brent Lykins
Lykins Motorsports
Custom FE Street, Drag Race, Road Race, and Pulling Truck Engines
Custom Roller & Flat Tappet Camshafts
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.customfordcams.com
502-759-1431
Instagram:  brentlykinsmotorsports
YouTube:  Lykins Motorsports

TomP

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 870
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2019, 12:22:12 AM »
The headers have to be minimum 3 1/2" collector... so much for the 289-302 idea.

There are not huge selections of FE headers like that but there are some.
 I assume High Performance or limited production would not allow any High Risers but might not let Cobra Jets too. Or square port BB Chev?

Looking at other classes at least they allow lifter bores to be sleeved on Coyotes! LOL

02   -   ENGINE   BLOCK
Domestic   OEM   production   Coyote   engine   block.   Engine   block   must   retain   OEM   cylinder   bore   
spacing   and   OEM   block   angle.   Lifter   bores    may   be bushed.   

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2019, 10:38:16 AM »
Y'all need one of my enclosed cam tunnels for factory blocks!

Maybe...

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2019, 10:39:18 AM »
The headers have to be minimum 3 1/2" collector... so much for the 289-302 idea.

You can adapt for the header collector - they just want a common hookup at the end for dyno installation

FrozenMerc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2019, 01:47:26 PM »
Maybe Hemi Joel with a straight eight 420 Duesenburg. Stroked & bored, sheet metal intake, two fours, zoomies...

Since we are just bench racing here, let's run this thought out.

Model J - Naturally aspirated - DOHC, 420 ci, 3.74" Bore, 4.76" Stroke, 5.7:1 compression - stock - 265 Hp @ 4250 RPM - That is a bit better then 1972 454 ratings......

Assuming one could afford to play with one of these motors (they make SOHC's look cheap), could it be competitive???  All practicality aside....

First order of business: Bump the compression up to a realistic number, probably custom pistons, something to work with the hemispherical combustion chambers.  Bore to help unshroud the valves...

Custom Cams to help it breath.

Will the bottom end and rotating assembly hold up at 6300 rpm???  With that stroke, piston speeds are going to be in Pro Stock territory - Custom Rods required???  Bearings???  Torque would be diesel like with that long of an arm.

Can the intake and head be modified enough - with in the rules - to achieve acceptable flow???  The siamese intake ports aren't going to help here. 

Werby - Is the Gonkulator up for such a task???



 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 01:52:31 PM by FrozenMerc »

shady

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1002
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2019, 02:55:39 PM »
Maybe de-stroke it & declare it a small block. Impractical build? sure. Impossible? probably.  Cool factor? Coolest of the cool. For sure would get the cover of HR. You would have to get Leno involved for the deep pockets. Anyway, it just me being a wise ass and thinking outside the box as usual and not at all being serious.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
2022 FERR cool FE Winner
2023 FERR cool FE Winner

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1915
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2019, 02:59:25 PM »
You would need to have a couple guys in black suits, white shirts, skinny ties, and tommy guns as a security detail.

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2019, 04:57:07 PM »
Let's ask Joel... He has one...Maybe he would sacrifice it on the altar of torque and horsepower....
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2019, 05:41:59 PM »
Probably have issues fitting the SF Dyno bell housing they use at JE.  LOL  We had to remove the ring gear just to get our engines to fit their dyno.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2019, 03:16:35 PM »
Has anyone had an answer back from the questions@enginemasters.com ?  I haven't as yet.  Would you post your question with answer if it does not give away what you are planning?  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

thatdarncat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1865
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2019, 04:14:59 PM »
Has anyone had an answer back from the questions@enginemasters.com ?  I haven't as yet.  Would you post your question with answer if it does not give away what you are planning?  Joe-JDC

Just as a public service FYI - from comments I've seen from Drag Week participants trying to get rules answers from anyone at Hot Rod, or their parent company The Enthusiast Network, it can be a long wait sometimes to get an email response. I think a lot of those people are scattered around the country at various events, and not always paying attention to emails, or at a desk. It just seems to be hit or miss whether you catch their attention. Again, just a FYI if it doesn't seem like you're getting a timely response, you may have to keep working at it.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
1978 Lincoln Mk V

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2019, 11:02:41 PM »
Yes, I know things take time.  I know one of the guys quite well, he has been in my shop many times over the last 30 years, and lives only a few miles from me.  However, he does not answer personal questions for the group, and keeps answers to himself for Hot Rod to give out.  However, it is already three weeks into 2019, and in actuality the competition is just 9 months away.  With getting custom pistons, machine work, crankshafts ground, scheduling additional machine work, broken parts, re-ordering, those nine months will be gone by very quickly.  Dyno testing, and rework time makes it more important for them to be timely in answering those questions for potential competitors.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500

Falcon67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2158
    • View Profile
    • Kelly's Hot Rod Page
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2019, 11:50:36 AM »
Agree - with the lead times involved, especially now as people are getting things on order for the start of 2019 racing season, they should have a point person for responses.  True, the mags have a thin staff that are all over the map.  Good folks, working their azzes off for sure. 

>You would need to have a couple guys in black suits, white shirts, skinny ties, and tommy guns as a security detail.
Just say "They'er with the band."

Royce

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2019, 09:22:48 AM »
The revised rules will be on the HRM web page in a couple days.. Little birdie says that the big block small block classes are gone and all engines are in the same class.. RPM range to run the motor is up to the builder. either the 3500 to 6500 or 3500 to 7000.. High riser and tunnel port are out.. The rule around crankshaft stroke will be clarified to read max of .010 stroke increase  not 10%  . I am not quite as clear on this point but supposedly the head has to match the engine. In other words no medium risers on 390s. Looks to me like a 410 might be the way to go.  It also looks like the the small scrub won't have a chance.. Limited to 327 cu in, it will never make enough low end torque to win. BB Scrub will be a tough competitor.
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
Kaase Boss 547. 840 HP 698 Torque  pump gas
1992 BMW V-12 5.0
2001 Lincoln 5.4 4 cam.
1968 Cougar XR7

Joe-JDC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1490
  • Truth stands on its own merit.
    • View Profile
Re: 2019 Engine Masters Challenge rules posted.
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2019, 01:14:21 PM »
Updated rules are posted on Hot Rod Engine Masters web site.  Don't know how they will benefit the FE, but selecting the rpm range to score will be a bonus for some.  Joe-JDC
Joe-JDC '70GT-500