Author Topic: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK  (Read 6086 times)

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67428GT500

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Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« on: December 28, 2018, 09:34:57 PM »
I asked about the M6905 fuel pump and over-pressurization. The vehicle hadn't been ran much, but carbs were new, fuel pum, ect.
I pulled the carbs off twice and finally found the the issue of water penetration into the oil post two upper end tear downs with a small cyilnder wall crack on a 176 mile engine.  I had the hole sleeved and reassembled with new rings, bearings and gaskets.
However, I noted fuel shooting straight up via the vent tube. Should I be suspect of the pump or the needle valves.  It seems many here favor the Edelbrock offering, which is 145.00 pump after servicing the pump with the M6905 during rebuild.

I was curious what would be the wise choice here considering the information provided.

                                                                                                                -Keith

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2018, 09:57:11 PM »
Use any pump ya want.  Just find a place to hide a regulator.
I like 4.5psi, but lotsa folks run more.
I find float control kinda hit or miss over 6psi.

Needles are always good to change.  If they are viton tipped needles, just buy a bag of 008 Orings and change them out.

67428GT500

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2018, 10:58:20 PM »
There in lies the issue. Hard line 427 fuel filter / dual quad log. I have no idea how a regulator could be mounted/hidden. 

                                                                                                    -Keith

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2018, 11:15:01 PM »
I get wanting to look original.  Sure, if it's a fancy original R code I'd totally do that.

Of course I have a general disrespect for numbers and prefer performance.  That said, I'd make the manual pump a dummy, install an electric like a Carter HP 4600 back by the tank and a regulator up near the engine bay, then run it through the dummy pump and into the factory hard piping.

If that seems like a lot of trouble, seek out smaller needle valves.  .097 handles higher pressure better than the typical .110 n&s that is common in every kit these days.  Worried about killing fuel flow?  don't.... you have four bowls to fill, there will be plenty of fuel.

67428GT500

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2018, 11:53:49 PM »
Well, it's a real 1967 GT 500. So the OE look is important. I will change to the .097 window.  Quick fuel needles work, or Holley only?

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2018, 12:39:23 AM »
They are all made in the same place.

67428GT500

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2018, 12:52:07 AM »
I appreciate the advice, Drew.

                                            -Keith

Barry_R

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2018, 04:59:18 AM »
....  If they are viton tipped needles, just buy a bag of 008 Orings and change them out.

The o-rings seem to be a big deal these days.  I find myself changing them out pretty often.  Current fuel hardens them up rather quickly and they leak.  I seem to remember that the original Holley stuff was a hair different than the common o-ring dimensions - fatter & did not dance around so much on the needle & seat.  I have the 8Rxxx engineering number around here somewhere, but do not have a drawing for comparison.

blykins

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2018, 06:39:42 AM »
You don't know how many problems that I've had with these 2x4 setups and fuel pressure.  Regulators are a blessing.  Fuel pressure gauges that work are another blessing.
Brent Lykins
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67428GT500

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2018, 08:42:35 AM »
So did you figure out where to hide a regulator on a dual quad with the 427 fuel filter/hard line?

blykins

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2018, 12:45:31 PM »
I just build the engines.....

What I'm saying is that if you build an engine big enough to need a big aftermarket fuel pump, you're gonna be faced with this scenario.  I've had at least 2 guys fire up an engine with a set of QFT 2x4 carbs and not understand that you can't run big fuel pressure.  It buries the needle into the seat and then floods out the vents. 
Brent Lykins
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machoneman

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2018, 01:41:19 PM »
....  If they are viton tipped needles, just buy a bag of 008 Orings and change them out.

The o-rings seem to be a big deal these days.  I find myself changing them out pretty often.  Current fuel hardens them up rather quickly and they leak.  I seem to remember that the original Holley stuff was a hair different than the common o-ring dimensions - fatter & did not dance around so much on the needle & seat.  I have the 8Rxxx engineering number around here somewhere, but do not have a drawing for comparison.

2X to what Barry said. Here in Chicago and with our 10% ethanol-laden gas (I do think this is the real culprit) the outer edge of the needle/seat o-rings not only hardens but shrinks the O.D. of the ring. Have had this happen on too many Holleys in the last few years to think it's coincidental.

Found out almost by accident. When pulling up and out a good O-ringed assembly, one can feel the drag imposed by the ring. Bad or hardened O-rings allow one to remove the assembly with little or no drag imposed by the fuel damaged O-ring. Btw, Holley and even Ace Hardware O-rings can and have had the same issues, again leading me to believe it is the gasoline!

What I wouldn't give for 100% pure Sunoco 260 at the pump again!

« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 01:42:54 PM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2018, 03:18:44 PM »

2X to what Barry said. Here in Chicago and with our 10% ethanol-laden gas (I do think this is the real culprit) the outer edge of the needle/seat o-rings not only hardens but shrinks the O.D. of the ring. Have had this happen on too many Holleys in the last few years to think it's coincidental.

Found out almost by accident. When pulling up and out a good O-ringed assembly, one can feel the drag imposed by the ring. Bad or hardened O-rings allow one to remove the assembly with little or no drag imposed by the fuel damaged O-ring. Btw, Holley and even Ace Hardware O-rings can and have had the same issues, again leading me to believe it is the gasoline!


What would be the pick for o-ring material here?   http://www.rubberstore.com/catalog/orings-c-33.html

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2018, 03:47:07 PM »
What would be the pick for o-ring material here?   http://www.rubberstore.com/catalog/orings-c-33.html

IMG_1238 by Drew Pojedinec, on Flickr

I run McMaster-Carr part number 9464K13
I dunno how many I've really installed, but I've ordered a 100 pack 5 times, and I don't have that many on hand....  Haven't had an issue thus far.

machoneman

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2018, 03:48:41 PM »
Believe FElony it's Viton material, just like the needle and seat tip mentioned here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DDQCG14/ref=psdc_15727521_t2_B00029JHGW

IIRC, nitrile material is the same or closest. I sized same at Ace with a good Holley ring and saved many bucks!
Bob Maag

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2018, 03:52:44 PM »
OK, what I'm getting at here is which of the materials offered by this company might be superior to what Holley and everyone else is using, as to the ability to resist damage from ethanol. Please read the individual categories (yes, I know it takes a while) and offer an opinion. Thank you.

Tobbemek

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 05:14:56 PM »
The Nitril //  BUNA-N is more resistant to Alcohol than the Viton material on the other hand Viton is more recistant to fuel than the Nitril. BLP has gone back to BUNA material on the N&S orings.
Last time i got orings from Mcmastercarr i ordered the BUNA material. so far so good just a little to short time to really say.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 05:21:45 PM »
Holley uses buna n as well.

Kinda damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t. One gets rock hard, and one gets mushy.

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 08:26:02 PM »
OK, I was looking to see if anyone thought the PTFE might be worth trying out.

http://www.rubberstore.com/catalog/ptfe-oring-as568-size-0070-0176-p-9328.html

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 08:56:06 PM »
We use Teflon o rings like that for pneumatic rams. They generally aren’t used by us in strictly compressive applications as they take a set.

Try em out and see.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 08:57:43 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 09:49:12 PM »
We use Teflon o rings like that for pneumatic rams. They generally aren’t used by us in strictly compressive applications as they take a set.

Try em out and see.

I have the answer! Been in my hobby room the whole time!   https://www.ebay.com/itm/352550791382  Look! Even pink for guys with automatics!

Well, my work on this planet is done. Thanks for resurrecting your Madness thread. I think I missed it because it was in Members Projects, which I don't read as much as I should. I hope it brings you more business as it adds more haters to the FElony account. Mmmmm haters.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 10:22:40 PM »
Thanks for resurrecting your Madness thread. I think I missed it because it was in Members Projects, which I don't read as much as I should.
Yes, I brought it back up partially for your benefit.  I figured perhaps you’d notice me detailing the different things I’ve tried over the past year, but I guess, no?
Made me wonder why you were whining “wahhh no one will tell me the secret.”  The info was on public display the whole time. Heck, look at my page sometime. I pretty much detail everything I do.

Quote
I hope it brings you more business as it adds more haters to the FElony account. Mmmmm haters.
Pretty sure no one cares enough to actually hate you. Folks appear to send me carbs for reasons totally unrelated to you.

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 11:04:37 PM »
Thanks for resurrecting your Madness thread. I think I missed it because it was in Members Projects, which I don't read as much as I should.
Yes, I brought it back up partially for your benefit.  I figured perhaps you’d notice me detailing the different things I’ve tried over the past year, but I guess, no?
Made me wonder why you were whining “wahhh no one will tell me the secret.”  The info was on public display the whole time. Heck, look at my page sometime. I pretty much detail everything I do.

Well, it does go both ways. You seemed surprised that I had any "numbers" cars, but I think most guys that have been on these forums for a while and can wade through my bullshit know the score.


Quote

Pretty sure no one cares enough to actually hate you. Folks appear to send me carbs for reasons totally unrelated to you.

There's going to be x number of newbies that are essentially unfamiliar with your work. Bringing that thread back around is fresh advertising. You said it yourself..."partially for your benefit". I think for every customer you get that says "I hate FElony", you should email me a cheezburgr. It's only fair.

So now that I'm gearing up (finally), I'll be starting my YouTube channel. Might be a tad different than many car channels. I had zero support for this idea when mentioned several times in this and the other forum, so you won't see me saying anything about it here. But, it should be fun. If not, I can just switch it off and go back on the lo-lo.

And Doug, if you read this, I apologize for the comment about your Mustang burning down. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

cjshaker

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 11:19:09 PM »
And Doug, if you read this, I apologize for the comment about your Mustang burning down. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

Apology accepted. Now, back to our regularly scheduled FE programming...

Drew, I've learned more about carbs from you in the past year, than I have in my lifetime.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
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'55 Ford Customline 2dr
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 11:43:49 PM »
Quote
Drew, I've learned more about carbs from you in the past year, than I have in my lifetime.
Thanks Doug, I don't often find something that really catches my interest, but when I do, I dedicate my life to it.  Heck, I'm still in the shop plating right now at 11:41pm.  So much more to learn, lot further to go with this still, deeper you go, the bigger it gets.  Just wish that pesky "going to work" thing didn't get in the way.

Well, it does go both ways. You seemed surprised that I had any "numbers" cars, but I think most guys that have been on these forums for a while and can wade through my bullshit know the score.


No sir.... I don't recall ever thinking about your cars at all.
I've yet to actually see anything that you have built. 

Instead of a cheeseburger, I'll send you something to hang outside your shop.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 11:45:39 PM by Drew Pojedinec »

Tobbemek

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2018, 03:06:08 AM »
OK, I was looking to see if anyone thought the PTFE might be worth trying out.

The PTFE oring is not flexible/soft enough to seal right in the N&S bore. It is better used in a squeeze situation like for bowl screws ,N&S nut  and lock screw.

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2018, 12:58:58 PM »
I've yet to actually see anything that you have built.

The overall game plan is complicated, but unique. Either I'll succeed or fail.

Quote
 

Instead of a cheeseburger, I'll send you something to hang outside your shop.


Cool, though I understand what you are saying. I've only worked on about 5 or 6 thousand cars in my past. I should get by.

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2018, 01:09:41 PM »
OK, I was looking to see if anyone thought the PTFE might be worth trying out.

The PTFE oring is not flexible/soft enough to seal right in the N&S bore. It is better used in a squeeze situation like for bowl screws ,N&S nut  and lock screw.

I see. What about a pre-installation soak in 303 for regular o-rings to hedge against deterioration?

shady

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2018, 01:40:57 PM »

[/quote]

The overall game plan is complicated, but unique. Either I'll succeed or fail.

[/quote]

Could be a successful failure. (win - win?)
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
2021 FERR cool FE Winner
2022 FERR cool FE Winner
2023 FERR cool FE Winner

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2018, 02:53:11 PM »
Cool, though I understand what you are saying. I've only worked on about 5 or 6 thousand cars in my past. I should get by.

The sign was based on you talking about a you tube channel.  Stop being so overly sensitive, it's not your style dude.
5,000 cars?  cool, you should really share some of your extensive knowledge on this site, it's what it is all about.

FElony

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2018, 07:52:30 PM »
Cool, though I understand what you are saying. I've only worked on about 5 or 6 thousand cars in my past. I should get by.

The sign was based on you talking about a you tube channel.  Stop being so overly sensitive, it's not your style dude.
5,000 cars?  cool, you should really share some of your extensive knowledge on this site, it's what it is all about.

I tried. I started investigating "heat soak" to get an idea about momentary or cumulative damage to starters and/or other components. I was going to write a blow-by-blow troubleshooting thread on this and other starting problems. After all, this was up my alley, more or less. In my enthusiasm, I plum forgot that dougie had changed his starter, and then the thread went down the shitter, as you saw. Queries such as "what is heat soak" and "what did the Chevy guys do back then" were related to the stream of logic. There's nothing more unrewarding than being insulted right in the middle an effort.

In my 23 years on the Net, I have never apologized for flinging poop at someone. I did this time because I insulted his car. That's too low, even for me.

Years ago, in the other forum, I tried to get some interest in fitting a modern, high-power stereo and alarm into a classic car, which would have involved revamping the charging system, designing enclosures, installing power locks, etc. No one bit. I mean, after all, there are other forums for stereos. Right?

It's not that I have a fragile ego. It's that I get frustrated and annoyed easily.

67428GT500

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Re: Fuel shooting straight up from bowl vent on BJ-BK
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2018, 09:09:15 PM »
They have Midol and Pamprin for that issue, Lony... LMAO   I am better suited for some things rather than others. Few know the entire vehicle, but tend to center their knowledge around components.  Transmissions, Engines, Differentials etc.

While some things are simply done one way, because it's the practical and and yields the intended result, I as a pilot know there are always ways to improve what I do. While we always use a check list, control and dealing with upset aircraft is a learned skill set.
Share what you can, most will take bits and portions and improve on them. 
As for hacking up a Shelby for small modern conveniences, I won't be doing it. However, no reason not to make it run like a scalded dog. I don't like the prospect of getting smoked by a ricer.
I used to to do it to a lot in the 80's with a nasty SSS 510 Datsun and a Toyota SR5 Turbo truck that was used by Garret and HKS to set up their performance modifications. I used to cruise Mel's Diner and go there on Muscle car night, but they stopped letting some of us park on the lot because they hated being smoked by VW's and Jap Crap as they called it.  They tried the vintage clause crap. My 510 was made in 1969. Shouldn't have been an issue.