Author Topic: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins  (Read 6690 times)

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1967 XR7 GT

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BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« on: December 26, 2018, 03:34:21 PM »
I am thinking of going .927" Pins w/ 150 to 180 walls on my 427 build, with a 4.250" bore.

Anyone seeing issues with this thinking.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 03:28:44 PM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

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CaptCobrajet

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2018, 10:10:45 PM »
Won't hurt a thing, but won't help either, unless you have clearance issues making the .990 or .975 a problem.
Blair Patrick

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2018, 06:04:11 AM »
What rods are you using with a SBC pin?
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gt350hr

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2018, 12:21:18 PM »
   The smaller diameter pin is more apt to flex and has less load bearing area. If you are using a stock stroke and rod length ( even 3.98) the piston weight will be tough on the smaller diameter pin at 6,000 or more rpm.
I realize the current Nascar engines have .787 diameter ( or smaller) wrist pins and they regularly turn over 9,000 for hours but a 427 is not a 358. The "minimum component weight" has made these  changes in the parts they use and is not for "every" engine combination.
    Randy
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 11:00:09 AM by gt350hr »

machoneman

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2018, 01:41:21 PM »
Bob Maag

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2018, 02:27:53 PM »
The rods & pistons are the last items I need for my build, and I picked up a new set of 6.500" Crower Billet rods for BBC jrls and SBC .927" pins, the price was hard to beat, a $2,300 set of rods for $320. These are custom rods that after some research and crank modifications will work.

I was saving for custom rods & pistons,  I was going to go a set of custom Pauter rods but they were around $1,700, so my plans have now changed.

I am aware of the pin issues, but pin technology has advanced over the years, so when I have my pistons made I will see what the manufacturer recommends.

As I was writing, when machoneman posted this link:  http://blog.diamondracing.net/when-to-upgrade-wrist-pins.  I was previously looking at Trend pins & Diamond pistons when I was researching my pin options and was where I came up with the Pins w/ 150 to 180 walls.


Richard

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CaptCobrajet

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2018, 03:28:29 PM »
A .180 wall 9310 material pin would be fine.  I would want a 2.750 length.  There may be some 4.250 box style forgings, but I would still want lots of engagement in the pin boss on each side.  If you don't use a box forging, explore 2.930 length.  I have seen more power from the better ring support of the long pins.  The weight is a non-issue vs. the benefits. JMO.
Blair Patrick

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Using Rods with Smaller SBC Pins Instead of BB Pins
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2018, 12:05:35 AM »
 Thanks to everyone for the reply's.


Here are the spec's on the rods:
6.500 CTOC
2.325 BE BORE
.900 BE WIDTH
.927 PE BORE
.900 PE WIDTH
CENTER BEARINGS
GRAM WEIGHTS: 577 / 257

So anyways, these are custom rods, the big ends are BBC but only .900" wide, and the PE are SBC .927" and .900" wide, while doing some research on these rods I remembered a post from some time ago,  Narrow Rods or Widen Journals ?,  what it basically says is, that FE jrl's can be widened to 1.820" with out cutting into the counter weights, so .900 x 2= 1.800 plus I can have up to .020" for rod side clearance. Crower shipped the rods yesterday but I won't see them till Wed because of New Years. The rods & crank work are Christmas presents to my self and the pistons to... 8)
Richard

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Re: 4.250" Bore Pistons with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2018, 01:34:38 AM »
You will have to narrow the bearings.  The "HN" bearings are still going to hit the radius on the crank.  To check for contact, measure the cheek width on the crank, measure the rods, and do the math.  Then put two rods on the crank with bearings and snug the bolts pretty tight.  Check the side clearance.  If you can't get within about .001 of the "math", you are rubbing the radius.  Also, with one rod on the crank, if you smack it against the cheek, it should ring with solid contact.  If you get a thud, it is hitting the bearing.  If you need some bearings narrowed, let me know.  I have a fixture for the BBC bearings that makes it much easier.  My recollection is that you need about .810 total bearing width, with a 45 to 60-ish angle on the chamfer.  The non chamfer side will need to be only a few thousandths from the outside edge.  Sometimes filing a little bit of the locator tab in order to scoot it over helps you retain as much bearing width as possible.
Blair Patrick

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2018, 08:06:10 AM »
I was thinking about this on my way home from work this morning, Big Block Chevy rods are .990" wide, so when you modify them to work on a ford crank your stuck with were the tangs for the bearing tabs are located so you have to work around that, un-less you re-cut new ones on the opposite side of the rod.

But these new rods have the tangs cut so the bearings are centered, they have no offset and they have no chamfer on the side of the rod to clear the radius of the jrl.

I am going to have to call Crower and ask them if there is a specific bearing these were designed for. 
Richard

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 08:24:09 PM »
We've been narrowing the CB743HN and recutting the chamfer for years.   If the rods are .900 wide, the bearing will have to be close to the edge on the non-chamfer side.  You can make it work, but you will have to narrow the bearings.  There is no "special" bearing for the job.  The Clevite "HN" is the best one to start with.  Sometimes, depending on how they cut the tangs in the rod, you may have to put the upper and lowers in the opposite positions to move the bearing the right direction.  If they are just "narrow" BBC rods, the numbers will turn towards the cam, but you can renumber, so not a big deal.  I have run the 2.200 rods from .900 to .990 width, and several ways in-between.  It's doable.
Blair Patrick

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 08:27:16 PM »
Rods showed today. And I talked to one of the techs also, other than they were made in 2007, and the specs on the rods, there is no other info on them.

There may be enough room in the pin end to go .990" pins, but I am staying with the .927" pins.
Pic of the rod and  with a 427 rod.






« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 07:28:45 PM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 10:09:22 PM »
Question for Blair or anyone who may have built one, I had a conversation with Blair, afterwards I was weighing my options, and decided to use my crank from the 427 in another build instead of machining it., and the money I would of used for machining I'll put it towards a stroker crank that already has BBC jrnls for my 427.

My question: will my 6.5" rod be long enough to be used with a crank with a 4.125" stroke, will the pistons clear the crank counterweights when they come to BDC ?
Richard

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1967 XR7 GT

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2019, 06:40:00 PM »
We've been narrowing the CB743HN and recutting the chamfer for years.   If the rods are .900 wide, the bearing will have to be close to the edge on the non-chamfer side.  You can make it work, but you will have to narrow the bearings.  There is no "special" bearing for the job.  The Clevite "HN" is the best one to start with.  Sometimes, depending on how they cut the tangs in the rod, you may have to put the upper and lowers in the opposite positions to move the bearing the right direction.  If they are just "narrow" BBC rods, the numbers will turn towards the cam, but you can renumber, so not a big deal.  I have run the 2.200 rods from .900 to .990 width, and several ways in-between.  It's doable.

Before I was thinking of having my crank offset ground to 4" and widened to 1.820", that would leave me .020" side clearance, I thought perfect, but after talking to Blair he had mention the rods didn't have any offset and the rods small end would no longer be in the center of the piston, but they could be made to work, but that would mean cutting off more of the width of the bearings and now the rods, so the .838" wide bearings now keep getting thinner.

Also, was mentioned piston guided rods, but that would mean I would have to have the jrl's now cut wider into the counterweights, but would still have to cut the rods.  I didn't like my options.

So, this what I am going to do, I will use either a 3.98" or 4.125" stroke crank with BBC jrl's.

The jrl's widths are 2.0", my rods are .900" wide, both 1.800", that's .200" side clearance. I'll kinda do what was suggested earlier, flip the bearings in the rods, I'll put the upper bearing in the cap, the lower in the rod, but now the bearing clearance for the jrl radius I'll now have in the center, so both rods with the bearing radius clearance, will face each other.

Now, the side of the bearing is about .008" from the out side of the rod that faces the jrl radius, but now .100" per side rod clearance. On the inside of the rods I have  .054" clearance from the edge of the bearing to the edge of the rod, I'll remove .050" per rod on the inside making my own offset adding .100" clearance between the rods, making .300" total clearance. And I get to keep the .838" bearing width.

I'll go with a set of rod guided pistons with about .010" clearance or what the manufacturer recommends, and if .010" is sufficient, with the rods centered in the pistons will have to see where it leaves them on the jrl's with .280" clearance.

First, I was going to do something like this, but I am limited by crank jrl width unless I cut into the counterweights, then when I offset grind the jrl's I then have to have the crank re-heat treated which would more than likely require the mains to be cut again, now cutting into the conterweights may now require Mallory metal for balancing, so now all these additional cost, plus loosing the costs of the prior crank work re-doing the jrl.s again, so I decide it was cheaper to just get another crank.




So this is what I am trying to do, the article didn't say what the jrl dia was, but the total clearance was .360", .120" @ all the places, but the rods look that they are not offset either, and may or may not sit on the jrl in the same location when the rods are centered in the pistons. And I don't think my crank is going to look like this one... :'(



« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 03:43:58 PM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

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1967 XR7 GT

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2019, 08:19:51 PM »
I am still pondering my crank options.

My next issue, Pistons, I am getting a quote on some JE pistons.

Any opinions on my option choices ?

I asked for:
Pins - .927" But JE reserves the right to choose the length for their design.
Piston Guided Rod - Self explantory
Accumulator grooves - Aids in top ring seal and minimizes ring flutter
Contact Reduction grooves - Helps reduce detonation
Window Milling - Allows lightening with out loosing strength
Spin Boss Miling - "         "            "       "      "           "
Dbl Pin Oilers - I think more oiling up there, the better

Lateral Gas Ports- Do I want these for a street engine or not, I know it helps ring seal ?

« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 08:34:48 PM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

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gt350hr

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 04:53:04 PM »
   Are you begining to see why the rods were $320? Look how much additional work ($$$ too) you are spending to use an inexpensive set of rods.  Does a street engine warrant all of this? You should be using 4032 alloy for a street engine instead of 2618. Gas ports are not needed on a street engine. Window mill and spin boss leave the piston heavier than a standard .125 thick skirt mill. Contact reduction is not necessary. I hope you have someone that can make your spacers/washers for your piston guided application. Be SURE the rod is located correctly so the oil hole in the crank is not exposed. Accumulator groove an double pin oiling are beneficial.
    Randy

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2019, 07:10:27 PM »
   Are you begining to see why the rods were $320? Look how much additional work ($$$ too) you are spending to use an inexpensive set of rods.  Does a street engine warrant all of this? You should be using 4032 alloy for a street engine instead of 2618. Gas ports are not needed on a street engine. Window mill and spin boss leave the piston heavier than a standard .125 thick skirt mill. Contact reduction is not necessary. I hope you have someone that can make your spacers/washers for your piston guided application. Be SURE the rod is located correctly so the oil hole in the crank is not exposed. Accumulator groove an double pin oiling are beneficial.
    Randy

The rods were made in 2008 and just sat on the shelf and was probably why they were put in the clearance section, and I was going Custom Rods & Custom Pistons to begin with, But now with the rod & crank change, I've saved money, the pistons were the same price regardless.

I spoke to JE today, they make spacers for rod guided pistons on their current configurations, but because of the .927" pin and the small end of the rod only being .900" wide, they'll design them without spacers, so the rods will be clearanced between the pin bosses.

A street engine with Blairs Pro Ports, small cam .600" Lift  260 x 270@ .050" , for me to play with.
Richard

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gt350hr

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 11:26:27 AM »
  That usually means a Forged Side Relief ( FSR) design piston and they are tricky at best to run in a street application. Good that they are willing to help you out.

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2019, 04:58:26 AM »
  That usually means a Forged Side Relief ( FSR) design piston and they are tricky at best to run in a street application. Good that they are willing to help you out.

I have run Nascar pistons in my 914 for years. My 1st set were a new set of Nascar BME pistons I ran @ .010" cylinder clearance, the pistons came partially finished, I had to have valve reliefs cut & a pin fit, tore it down after 6 months, the piston skirts look like they did when I assembled the motor.

After that I was running one race take outs, some have even came with rings that I ran, The JE's I dropped the cyl clearance to .008"

Pic's of the pistons are used set of SB2 take outs, JE 4.1535"-105.5mm dia for a 105.7mm-4.1615" bore with 2.250", .866"-22mm pins, with about a 1.200" pin height and will be ran with  .008"-0.2032mm clearance, giving a 105.702mm bore, and are gas ported. Rings were used that came with the pistons and are .043" top 1.5mm 2nd and 3mm oil.
I checked the end gap on the rings, Top was .019" and 2nd was .025", the cyl's I will have light hone done and run the rings as they are.

These were ran air cooled, one set I ran a year in a daily driver 30,000 miles, I pulled the motor to take the straight cuts out, they were driving me up the wall, the pistons were beautiful.  So the FSR's in a more stable water cooled motor, I don't see an issue.

The piston guided rod, is my 1st time, a few of my motors I was going to try it out, but never had a crank or rods cut to try it, so now I am.


« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 05:23:23 AM by 1967 XR7 GT »
Richard

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gt350hr

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2019, 11:53:46 AM »
   Water cooling brings on the challenges with an FSR.

1967 XR7 GT

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2019, 05:04:20 PM »
   Water cooling brings on the challenges with an FSR.

Can you elaborate on your statement, what challenges are you talking about ?   
Richard

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gt350hr

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2019, 10:31:08 AM »
     An air cooled cylinder expands more than a water cooled cylinder . While you have had good results with the air cooled combination , using the FSR in an iron , water cooled block will require different clearances for sure to prevent scuffing. Using a cast iron head adds to the scuffing potential.
     Randy

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2019, 03:43:46 PM »
     An air cooled cylinder expands more than a water cooled cylinder . While you have had good results with the air cooled combination , using the FSR in an iron , water cooled block will require different clearances for sure to prevent scuffing. Using a cast iron head adds to the scuffing potential.
     Randy

The FSR pistons are not new, they been out for a bit, and I will have to ask JE about the scuffing & clearance issue's and will have to see what is recommended for clearance.

So I will be running around a 1.6" C/H, so I will have  little more skirt area than the norm, more than like what a stroker and a 6.7" rod or longer would require in a C/H.

      "Using a cast iron head adds to the scuffing potential."   

But for the record, my heads are Edelbrock Pro Ports.   But I am curious as to how a cast iron head could add to piston scuffing ? I know of a debate as to if an aluminum head deters detonation compared to a cast iron head, some say yes others say no, but for a cast iron head causing piston scuffing is new to me.
Richard

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gt350hr

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Re: BBC Rods with .927" Piston Pins
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2019, 05:50:12 PM »
  Richard ,
        I have dealt with forged side relief pistons since they became the ''craze" in Nascar engines and unless I told you that there would be no way of you knowing I had. Because of that I will assume I have more experience with them than you do. Parts I engineered won many "TV" races including Michael Waltrip's first Daytona 500 win. That and a few bucks will still buy me a cup of coffee so I have that going for me. LOL
     The "strut" area of an FSR piston is very rigid and is the area where scuffing is most prevalent . It is unusual to see them scuff in the center of the skirt. In the ''early days" of FSR technology , I think every manufacturer scuffed them until methods were developed to reduce it. Innovative cam turns and barrel shapes have come along way .  The reason I say a cast iron head can add to the scuffing is likely two fold. One would be the fact that an iron head is more rigid limiting "some" amount of flex versus an aluminum head. Second would be the iron head's heat retention over the aluminum head , leaving more heat for the piston to absorb.  You have an aluminum head had should be fine.
    1.600 is actually fairly long for an FSR design. FSRs like 1.300 or less. (Well IMHO anyway)
         My opinions are from hands on development , not debates or magazine articles.
             Randy