Author Topic: Stock 352.  (Read 9630 times)

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Dieselman966

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Stock 352.
« on: December 26, 2018, 01:42:57 AM »
Hi guys. I have been digging around to figure out why my 352 seems to be low on power. I bought my 65 galaxie 500 with the 352 rebuilt. Stock specs with a comp cams 33-222-3 cam. Only other thing different from stock is the .030 over sized piston.  I'm not sure if I'm expecting to much but it just seems like a big slouch. I have the initial timing set at *12 and all in timing is at *38. Compression test showed 125 +- 1 or 2 on all cylinders. I sold my 72 scamp that had a rebuilt 360 magnum in it with 2.76 gears and that car ripped pretty good. Is there something I'm missing here? The galaxie weighs 400 lbs more than the scamp. Seems like that shouldn't make that much of a difference.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2018, 08:10:09 AM »
Compression seems low at 125 if you were WOT and a decent battery. Maybe throw a vacuum gauge on it and see what you have for idle vacuum.  If bouncing around, could be a valve issue, if steady, could be cam timing, pistons deep in the hole with the common .053 Felpro head gasket.

However, one thing you could do is check how fast the curve comes in, if it does have builder pistons and a thick head gasket, it'd want the timing in as quick as it can handle it.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
Hi guys. I have been digging around to figure out why my 352 seems to be low on power. I bought my 65 galaxie 500 with the 352 rebuilt. Stock specs with a comp cams 33-222-3 cam. Only other thing different from stock is the .030 over sized piston.  I'm not sure if I'm expecting to much but it just seems like a big slouch. I have the initial timing set at *12 and all in timing is at *38. Compression test showed 125 +- 1 or 2 on all cylinders. I sold my 72 scamp that had a rebuilt 360 magnum in it with 2.76 gears and that car ripped pretty good. Is there something I'm missing here? The galaxie weighs 400 lbs more than the scamp. Seems like that shouldn't make that much of a difference.
EDIT: Ross had good suggestions for what you have on hand but you will still have .100" or so quench.

Likely those .030" over pisrons are about .060" below deck. More if the deck was not cut. Ford was putting there flat top (no valve reliefs) .050" below deck in 65 with steel shim head gaskets. The C4AE-G heads are about 74cc in stock form. If they were cut it is likely you gained the volume back with the valve reliefs. A big help would be a simple head swap to a C3AE-C head. Your exhaust will bolt up and seal. I know of a man in Nevada, Texas that has a couple of the non-406 Denver 390 heads.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/pts/d/nevada-many-fe-ford-cylinder-heads/6755030183.html

Another bolt up help with compression would be some heads I have. They were cut by a pretty sharp guy. He had a .030" over 352 with the 1.8125? tall pistons like yours. He cut up some heads that fit in the hole giving him a .042" or so quench. They were cut to compensate the Felpro 1020 gasket and the bad piston design. If you want them pm me. They were on his running 352 but will need rebuilt.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:05:29 AM by chris401 »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 10:43:14 AM »
These guys are telling you right.  Your engine likely has 80cc heads if they have had a valve job and even a light surfacing.  Rebuilder 4-valve relief pistons at least .050 in the hole, 12.5 cc in a thick Fel Pro gasket, etc......and it shakes out to about 7.65 to 1.  That's why it feels weak.That would be a whole different animal with another two full points of compression.

Chris, that looks like Wade White's heads from several years back.  I remember he did that at one point.
Blair Patrick

FrozenMerc

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 11:00:32 AM »
Check compression, that is most likely your problem.  I have 9.5:1 352 and it is no slouch, even in a big Monterrey Wagon. 

You might want to spend a few hundred bucks on a chassis dyno session, just to confirm a few things such as the distributor curve, AFR, etc, and it will give you justification for your seat of the pants feeling.

You didn't mention the transmission type or if it had been rebuilt.  A tired Cruis-O will eat up a ton of horsepower as well.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 11:21:24 AM »
I would have to check the vacuum reading again. I remember it being quite a bit lower than my magnum 360 was. Around 15" at idle. My magnum was over 20" for comparison.  The needle is steady for the most part. It seems to fluctuate with a stumble that the engine has. I can't seem to find a reason for that. The exhaust manifolds were leaking pretty bad so I am currently putting headers on it. With some different exhaust. I hoping to be able to figure out the stumble them. 

The transmission is a rebuilt cruise-o-matic. I have paper work on that also.

Sounds like I am battling a low compression issue.  Would my c4ae 6090g heads be worth having worked over? They were rebuilt with the engine also. Chris401 the heads you have were machined down to fit inside the cylinder bore? Does that create any flow issues or is that less of a problem than the low compression issue.  And what would have to be done to the intake to fit with those heads?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:01:30 PM by Dieselman966 »

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 12:26:44 PM »
I would have to check the vacuum reading again. I remember it being quite a bit lower than my magnum 360 was. Around 15" at idle. My magnum was over 20" for comparison.  The needle is steady for the most part. It seems to fluctuate with a stumble that the engine has. I can't seem to find a reason for that. The exhaust manifolds were leaking pretty bad so I am currently putting headers on it. With some different exhaust. I hoping to be able to figure out the stumble them. 

The transmission is a rebuilt cruise-o-matic. I have paper work on that also.

Sounds like I am battling a low compression issue.  Would my c4ae 6090g heads be worth having worked over? They were rebuilt with the engine also. Chris401 the heads you have were machines down to fit inside the cylinder bore? Does that create any flow issues or is that less of a problem than the low compression issue.
Yes Blair these are Wade's old heads. He gave them to me when I bought some other parts. I was battling a budget at the time and did not spend the money having the heads redone. I had the whole engine in pieces.

Dieselman, the heads sit flush on the block and down into the bore. I never did run these. The previous owner was battling to get over 12 miles per gallon in his 65 Galaxie but I cannot say what the problem was. When I mocked up these heads to the block there was not much movement. A guess based off of a 5 year old memory I would say less than .010" bore clearance. Not sure how or if that extra "slack" effected combustion and swirl. I figured if the heads did not fit the next 4.030" bore the chamber drop could be shaved leaving you qith a little better .060" quench. They are your for shipping.

The C4AE-G heads are good heads. One member made mention of a venturi ring built into those intake ports. I will leave it up to him to elaborate. I run a stockish 66 Galaxie 352 in my show truck pictured in my avitar. The bores were good so I kept the factory flat tops. .049-.050" in the hole. Bolted up some fresh D2TE-AA heads with .021" steel shim gaskets. Problem I had was the heads had a rough surface causing two sets of shim gaskets to leak oil. When I swapped to some .042" rebuilders gaskets i lost about 1.5 miles per gallon.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 11:40:51 PM »
Went to the garage to finish welding the exhaust this morning and decided to pull the intake to investigate a vacuum leak. Ended up pulling the passenger side head off to take some measurements. Pistons are .079 in the hole with felpro 8554pt head gaskets. Specs say they are .0468-.0572 thickness.  This puts me just over 8:1 compression.

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 08:54:19 AM »
Went to the garage to finish welding the exhaust this morning and decided to pull the intake to investigate a vacuum leak. Ended up pulling the passenger side head off to take some measurements. Pistons are .079 in the hole with felpro 8554pt head gaskets. Specs say they are .0468-.0572 thickness.  This puts me just over 8:1 compression.
Those are big gaskets. You will have a little help with a .041" Felpro 1020. If you like the milling finish don't be afraid to use a steel shim gasket. They can be a headache but if your finish is good a .021" will help compression. Make sure your lifters are bled down before hand.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 10:29:29 AM »
What are you using for head volume and piston volume? You have a 246AP cast piston in there, not sure of relief size, but using your deck clearance, 73 cc for the heads and 6 cc for the pistons I am getting 7.77:1 compression.  Those pistons should be .064 in the hole with an uncut deck, using that number I get 7.94 with a 6 cc valve relief.  Still low

Using .064...
- A Felpro 1020 will get you to 8.13 in that case. 
- I would be afraid of a shim gasket, only because of sealing on old surfaces, but if you could get it to seal, a .020 shim will get you to 8.51

I wouldn't go more, because you don't have any quench so it will be fussy on fuel.  In fact, I think I'd likely buy a single 8554 and put it back if you haven't pulled the other head, recurve the distributor for a common performance curve for later, run it for now, and build a nice zero deck 390, even if it's a stock performance version, but pick parts for the use.

The distributor recurve, something like 22 in the distributor in by 2800, with 16 initial, will pick it up as much as it's going to get, and still be appropriate for the next engine, then build a nice little 390

I don't see any real way to make it perform the way it sounds like you want without going deep. 
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 10:57:39 AM »
I'm going to check out a set of heads that are local to me. Guy claims smaller combustion chambers but not sure by how much. 

The cc specs posted for the pistons are 6.3. That's what I was using along with 73 for chamber cc. Piston is .079 in the hole. Checked it a half dozen times.

I was gonna put the heads back on with these gaskets. .027 thickness and maybe the heads this guy has up here if they check out.
https://www.cometic.com/i-24769458-ford-fe-big-block-352-428ci-v8-027-mls-cylinder-head-gasket-4-080-gasket-bore-each.html

Kind of sounds like I might be throwing good money after bad money her though. Itll be a few years before I can put a motor together for it just trying to put a bandaid on it for now.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2019, 11:30:38 AM »
I'm going to check out a set of heads that are local to me. Guy claims smaller combustion chambers but not sure by how much. 

The cc specs posted for the pistons are 6.3. That's what I was using along with 73 for chamber cc. Piston is .079 in the hole. Checked it a half dozen times.

I was gonna put the heads back on with these gaskets. .027 thickness and maybe the heads this guy has up here if they check out.
https://www.cometic.com/i-24769458-ford-fe-big-block-352-428ci-v8-027-mls-cylinder-head-gasket-4-080-gasket-bore-each.html

Kind of sounds like I might be throwing good money after bad money her though. Itll be a few years before I can put a motor together for it just trying to put a bandaid on it for now.

So we are in the ballpark, but mathematically it doesn't make sense unless your rods were reworked unresonably. (3.50/2)+6.54+1.816 = 10.106.  Subtracted from a virgin block at 10.170 = .064.  If they accidentally used 390 rods you'd be in the .100s even with a big cut to the block.  However, it really doesn't matter as anything over about .060 your quench is gone and you are above .100.

There are few heads that will be significantly smaller chamber.  However, a set of C0AE-D heads could be, but don't get caught up in getting the compression up significantly. A 60cc chamber, if you find a set, would get you above 9:1, but you still have no quench and A tight quench higher compression engine will generally be better on fuel than a moderate one with no quench.  If the other heads are indeed C0AE-D heads and about 60cc, they'd get you into the 9:1, but be ready, because it could be fussy on fuel

Remember, the cause of your low power is likely not just compression, the pistons are deep in the hole, the timing curve is slow and the cam, although good, is a little bigger than stock and heads don't fix any of that other than compression.

Don't discount the distributor recurve, it isn't lip service, a stock Ford distributor and all aftermarket distributors deliver with too much mechanical, which comes in too slow, that big curve limits the amount of initial you can run.  You get your initial up to 18 or so, and coming in quicker (within reason) to 40 total, it'll gain some snap, likely as much as you'd get out of a set of heads for much cheaper.

Second, if you are willing to get inside, you could advance the cam too, it's also cheaper.  You are at 106 IF the timing set was a decent one, bu it could just be off.  Bringing the cam forward 2-3 degrees, degreeing it and putting at 103-104 centerline, along with the recurve will be noticeable and under 200 bucks total for both, and undoable for the next build.

Some here like DCR calculations, some don't, but say you slapped a set of 1020s in there. 8.1 static, 6.87 dynamic compression.  If you advance the cam 3 degrees, dynamic ends up at 7:1, that is the equiv of raising static to 8.3 with a 70 cc head. 

You may lose at WOT, but you will gain vacuum and torque, how much depends on where the cam is now and where you put it.

Last, Wade's old heads did something VERY different than a smaller chamber.  They dropped the quench pad into the cylinder and brought the entire chamber lower, this made the engine act like the pistons were not deep in the hole.  If those heads are usable, that's an interesting option, and could be beneficial, especially if Wade rubbed on them a little, but throwing a set of heads on that will gain anything significant in compression may not get you where you want to be in driveability and likely is just throwing money away

There is one last option, but I think it's another "cut of the nose despite the face" option, assuming you run manifolds, cut and prep a set of small port truck heads. You get to around 68 ccs, and you gain a little torque, but you'd lose overall peak power due to the poor flowing heads and you still have the quench issue. 

In the end, if you rolled in there with both heads on and on a budget or delayed timeline.  I'd recurve, check the throttle for WOT first, then advance the cam if it wasn't enough.  BTW, cranking compression will go up when you advance, you can see it. If that wasn't enough and you were set on getting compression up, I'd yank that engine and put a set of pistons that approach zero deck, but there goes the budget

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

WerbyFord

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2019, 09:44:22 PM »

352’s can feel soggy especially down low compared to a 390. It may sound strange but the 352 is a short-stroke big-port revver.
So they are soggy down low and a little weak up high due to the tiny cam.
Yours has a better cam, about the equal of a 390gt cam, but even soggier compression at 7.9 or so and a soggy deck.
That’s the weakest part of it.

Here are some Gonkulator numbers:
Stock 65 Gal, 352/250 FX 3.00 gears, just 2” duals.
4040 curb + driver
Torq 316 at 2000
Torq 333 at 2700
Powr 261 at 4500 (underrated)
2.55
10.76 at 66.6
16.62 at 84.1mph
9.0 0-60mph
The 352/250ghp was actually underrated which made it a fairly competitive combo in NHRA, if that’s any consolation.
It’s only about 10hp below the old “352/300ghp” which was almost the same engine.

Under similar prep:
1974 Dart 360/245net (I don’t have a 72 Scamp handy)
3450 curb + driver
15.07 at 91.5mph
6.9 0-60mph
(That’s the 360 Magnum which replaced the hot 340, Mopar’s hot ticket for 1974).
Mopar was the last of the Big 4 (yes, there was the AMC 401 back then) to give up into the dark era.

That scamp is about 600 lb lighter than you Gal. The beauty of the Gal just makes it look lighter.
And yes it will feel and run like a dog compared to a stock 352/250hp.

Now let’s rebuild it, say .030 but at about 7.9 CR and .130 total quench.

Torq 292 at 2000 -24
Torq 307 at 2700 -26
Powr 241 at 4500 -20
2.63
11.11 at 64.6
17.14 at 82.2mph (down 1.9mph)
9.8 0-60mph

Here’s that super hot Comp 260H cam at 212-212-110 .484 .484 4 advanced
Torq 266 at 2000 -26 even worse!
Torq 309 at 3200 +2
Powr 265 at 4800 +24
2.74
11.25 at 65.4 (SLOWER than stock cam in 1/8 mile)
17.20 at 83.8mph
9.7 0-60mph
Wrong cam for that soggy 352.

Lets put headers and 2-1/2 duals on there for when you do the stroker kit.
I used 1-3/4 x 34” which are too big so they don’t help much.
Torq 260 at 2000
Torq 303 at 3200
Powr 267 at 5100
2.76
11.26 at 65.7
17.19 at 84.1mph
9.6 0-60mph
The headers actually hurt it. The 2.5” pipes helped a little but not much.

Not enough inches, soggy, 7.9 CR or so. That’s whats hurting it.

Make it a zero-deck 9.6 CR 390cid and it will wake right up and put that scamp on the trailer.
Well ok you’ll need a carb and intake, eg 735 Holley and 428pi intake.
Nothing wrong with the c4ae-g heads.
Torq 344 at 2000 +84
Torq 402 at 3300 +99 wow
Powr 347 at 5000 +80
2.40
9.81 at 74.3
15.03 at 94.2 over 10mph gain.
6.9 0-60mph
There’s the fix! Get more CID (390 cranks are almost free these days), fix the quench & compression problems, all at the same time.
Gaining almost 100 ponies from just a crank is HUGE.
Now you can take on that ugly lightweight scamp.
Of course a 445cid would be better yet but the 390 option would be almost free, and the 445cid would destroy your trans in a hurry.

I don’t even know if I’d bother with the headers right now.
I think this lays out the reasons it is such a spongy dog. Fixing those is really what it wants.


Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2019, 10:51:52 PM »
My427stang what is the quench doing? I'm just trying to understand what's going on here.  Seems to be all higher compression is not created equal.  Does the higher quench number make for bad combustion?

Werbyford

Ultimately I'll be doing another engine. It's just a bummer to get rid of this engine with it being a fresh rebuild.  From what I have read swapping a 390 crank in to the block I have would require the crank, rods and cylinders getting bored another .020 over to take the 390 pistons.

I think I'll just get a head gasket and put it back together. Better to have a driver while I sort this out.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 10:54:43 PM by Dieselman966 »

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2019, 11:21:55 PM »
I forgot to ask. Would using the cometic head gaskets that have a compressed thickness of .027 be worth putting since I have one head off? Or just save the money for the stroker build?

WerbyFord

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2019, 12:49:28 AM »
I forgot to ask. Would using the cometic head gaskets that have a compressed thickness of .027 be worth putting since I have one head off? Or just save the money for the stroker build?

Given your plans, I wouldn't bother. "Quench" is called the distance between the piston top and the cylinder head quench pad. Ideally about .040" so the mix gets "squeezed" in there, improving swirl and combustion. Quench is probably a bad name for it. You cant go less than about .040" total (deck clearance + gasket) or risk piston banging into the head. But as Ross said, more Quench is more soggy. I think there's SOME benefit to lowering quench below .100", Ross says .060", ok somewhere in there, tighter is better, .040" is about ideal.

Those pricey gaskets aren't going to affect that much.
I'd keep that fresh 352 block then, but put a way smaller cam in it (even a used one w matching lifters, just a stocker), just a good running smooth idling good-on-gas 352. Then build your next engine for whatever your plan is.

That's right - you'd need crank-rods-pistons to make a 390. Not exactly free but pretty cheap for parts anyway. I just wanted you to see how much difference it would make, so you know why that 352 plus that cam is so soggy in a heavy tall geared car.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2019, 10:30:54 AM »
Sorry for the late reply.  Werby pretty much hit it all though, I'll write a little book though :).

First, look at most any head and piston other than a hemi.  Even the lowest compression engines have a flat pad on the head and if possible a matching flat pad on the piston.  Modern thinking has even gone away from a standard "dish" (except in very purposeful choices) to an "inverted D-cup" which is basically a copy of the quench pad and combustion chamber.

The issue of course is we have to package everything along with a fixed location of the valves, multiple valve sizes, etc, so it's not perfect, but you'd like the smallest combination of head chamber and piston cup you can.  Not in terms of volume, volume determines compression ratio, but in terms of direction in each way, length, width, etc and as clean of a path across the chamber to allow the mixture to move around as well as the flame to travel quickly. (no domes, bumps, funny shapes)

Then, everything that is NOT that combustion space, you would want to almost touch at TDC  in operation. 

Think of what happens in the cylinder, piston drops, atmosphere and cam overlap starts filling the cylinder, the cylinder rises, the air and fuel is compressing, and when the piston's quench pad(s) and head pad(s) almost smack into each other, all that air and fuel is churned, tumbled and forced into the chamber/piston cup.  Some people actually call them "squish" pads, not quench

Then the engine fires, that chamber has a small distance for the flame to travel.  The air and fuel is nicely mixed up burns evenly, and it starts pushing on the piston as heat rises and gasses expand.  The benefits are 1: Everything is churned up and one place, 2: a neat clean "chamber" allows a  fast flame front 3: the complete burn means less chance of detonation, the clean edges and less surface area can mean less chance of preignition.   This is better everywhere.  You even need significantly less ignition timing. 

Then think of something like yours, piston rises, it starts to move things around, but only goes to a certain point.  Additionally, when it fires, even at the same compression ratio, the flame front will have to travel across 4 inches of bore, and 1/2 way across that, it will hit the edge of the chamber in the head.  To counter that, you need MORE advance to fire early enough to make power.  Ironically though, because there is some unburned fuel near those shadowed spots during burn and maybe some that didn't get churned up nicely, you have a significantly higher chance for detonation (ignition from heat after the spark plug fires).

If you look at builds around the dyno pages, look at a modern chamber/tight quench, they can get to the point where they only need 24 degrees of timing to hit max power, but the looser versions need 40+ degrees of advance.

The ironic thing is, the engine that requires more advance, is less likely to tolerate it, that's the punch line for you.  Until you get significantly tighter, your engine will want more and more advance, but it will likely ping.  So raising compression is OK, and recurving is OK, but one is a lot cheaper than the other, so I am trying to find you some "free chicken"... basically what can you do to live with it and spend little right now.

There are also benefits on the exhaust stroke, same thing but think of exhaust rushing out of a smaller area and being pushed that way, reducing hot spots and giving a more focused area during overlap, but the compression stroke is good to picture the majority of the benefit.

So now, I keep preaching the ignition advance.  Going back to the loose quench scenario.  Ford uses and real slow advance and late initial.  If you can get the timing to start at a higher initial, and come in a bit quicker, but not so quick that it pings, you will get some part throttle power. That would cost 100 bucks max and will make some difference, it won't turn it into a 390 or 427, but it gets some noticeable snap

Now I disagree about the benefit of headers.  However, I agree that you likely shouldn't buy them now.  If you sized the proper header for the engine, during your 40 degrees of overlap, it would fill the cylinder slightly more than stock exhaust will.  It's not a backpressure or flow thing, it's a negative exhaust pulse thing.  The problem lies that if you buy headers for the current engine, they would need to be very small diameter and as long as possible.  When you build a 390 or bigger, they may be too small.  That's the only reason I wouldn't buy them (and they probably don't make a tiny header for your car)

However, don't be discouraged, because if you decided to make some power, as Werby showed, you could get a 390 crank and rods, a the right set of pistons and you'd be making a lot more torque and power.  Additionally, you could even just buy a set of pistons and rings and make yours a modern 352 build, however, I think most would agree that sticking a 390 or 428 crank in there is better power per dollar.

Last comment, I do like the idea of just bolting it back together and running it (of course I would add a distributor recurve...insert dead horse).  Using your numbers, going from .132 quench distance to .106 is a waste of expensive head gaskets when you can buy a single 8554 for 15 bucks.  At that point, checking TDC with a piston stop and making sure your balancer/pointer is correct and having initial up near 14-16 with mechanical coming in quicker, you'll be happier and have some coin to save for the next step.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 10:39:28 AM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

WerbyFord

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 01:45:36 PM »
Ross gave a very good writeup.
I even think $15 is big money for a gasket, just old school.
I like to buy a whole FE gasket set every time I hit Summit - that usually gets me over the free shipping level.
Then I cannibalize as needed. You can never have too many open gasket sets.

Also - there ARE in fact some heads WITHOUT a quench pad. Notably the Cleveland-2bbl, later 351M 400M heads. They do burn clean, partly because there's NO quench area to "quench out" the burn after a long distance from the spark plug. But that long run distance (and lack of swirl) makes them detonation prone.

Ford tried that for a single year on the big Lima 429-460 with its bigger 4.36 bore, in 1972, with poor results. Knocked like a dog and ran that way too.
That design was dropped for 1973, going back to a quench pad. Much over 4" bore is just too far, when the flame has to go this far it will detonate instead. The Hemi avoids this by putting the plug in the middle.

I think the effort to get rid of the quench pad on the Cleveland, and then Lima, was to clean up emissions. "Quenching out" the burn means any hydrocarbons in there don't get burned. The advantage is you get Quench to avoid detonation, hence the name quench, and you also get swirl for a better burn all around.

I suppose the 352 is a torque monster compared to the 312 it replaced, but once the 390 hit the street, the 352 felt like a small block down low. Up high, it's hard to tell a 352 from a 390. They were both rated at "300" hp, LOL. In reality the 352 made about 270hp but the 390 only made about 280hp so not much difference on top end. But a HUGE difference flooring a big Galaxie away from a light with a 3.00 gear.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2019, 10:20:58 PM »
I appreciate the lesson guys. So with out a better quench the fuel air mixture doesnt mix as good which can cause problems with higher compression.  Makes sense.

I'll grab a matching head gasket and slap it back together and I'll look into recurving the distributor.  As far as headers go I already bought a set of Sanderson headers. I was installing them along with building the new exhaust when this whole other snowball got ahold of me.  As the saying goes curiosity killed the cat. 

GJCAT427

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 06:03:45 AM »
I`m planning on being there. Still got a lot of work on the new motor for the 63. Getting the bottom end balanced and should get it back fri or Monday.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2019, 07:53:57 AM »
Changed my mind again lol. Pulled the engine out and got it on the stand. Talked with the machine shop and the said $360 to deck the block if I bring them just the block another 200 and they can rehone the bores for new rings.   Saves $1000 dollars over going to the 390 or bigger crank.

  Whats a good cam recommendation seems how it gonna be out for machine work?  I think I'll be switch to some 3.55 gears also.

RustyCrankshaft

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2019, 07:59:15 AM »
If you have it torn all the way down to square deck I would say spend some of that 1000 you saved by not going to a 390 and call any of the Triple B's (Brent Barry Blair in no specific order, or any good FE builder of your choice) and get a cam ground for your combo and I'd consider going hyd roller. Big fan of hyd rollers on the street.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2019, 08:05:56 AM »
Changed my mind again lol. Pulled the engine out and got it on the stand. Talked with the machine shop and the said $360 to deck the block if I bring them just the block another 200 and they can rehone the bores for new rings.   Saves $1000 dollars over going to the 390 or bigger crank.

  Whats a good cam recommendation seems how it gonna be out for machine work?  I think I'll be switch to some 3.55 gears also.

Are you saying you are going to cut it to fit the pistons you have?  or get pistons that are closer?  I wouldn't cut the block to fit those pistons, I'd get new pistons if you want to stay 352.  That's a heck of a cut
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 08:23:17 AM »
I keep 352 pistons on the shelf here, just FYI.  They are 4.062 bore, so you would have to bore it.  I adjusted the compression height back when I first did these.  I'll look today and see what the CH is on mine.  Nice CP pistons, forged flat tops, modern rings, etc......nothing on a shelf anywhere else like these.

You should probably surface the deck, but you wouldn't have to cut it to death.  I'll post the CH later.
Blair Patrick

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2019, 08:47:30 AM »
Rustycrankshaft
I'll get in touch with one of those guys for a camshaft.

My427stang
Where would be a good place for custom pistons with the correct compression height?  Talking with a local machine shop about this and the cost between decking the 352 and stroking with a 390 rotating assembly will cost $1000 more. 
On a side note my measurement wasn't accurate for piston in hole depth.  I was going off the wrong mark on the balancer for tdc. I'm waiting on my dial indicator to show up to find tdc and remeasure.  Guess I should have posted here before I ripped the motor the rest of the way down.

Captcobrajet
Sounds good. I'm open to ideas here.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2019, 08:53:30 PM »
Rustycrankshaft
I'll get in touch with one of those guys for a camshaft.

My427stang
Where would be a good place for custom pistons with the correct compression height?  Talking with a local machine shop about this and the cost between decking the 352 and stroking with a 390 rotating assembly will cost $1000 more. 
On a side note my measurement wasn't accurate for piston in hole depth.  I was going off the wrong mark on the balancer for tdc. I'm waiting on my dial indicator to show up to find tdc and remeasure.  Guess I should have posted here before I ripped the motor the rest of the way down.

Captcobrajet
Sounds good. I'm open to ideas here.

We have at least one piston manufacturer on here and he could easily make you a 1.87 compression height piston for a 10.160 deck with whatever dish or D-cup you desire, I'd say leave it up to him to PM, otherwise, Brent, Barry, or Blair all have companies they use to do the same.  Of course Blair already chimed in with a set

They won't be dirt cheap though but will only bite once

As far as your comment on TDC, let me offer you an alternative that is easier and more exact. 

- Find a piece of strong metal, maybe 1 inch x 1/16 or 1/8 flat stock, bend a 90 degree so you can bolt it down using a head bolt and it will hit the piston
- Bolt it solid, turn the engine by hand until the piston hits the metal, mark the balancer near the timing pointer. 
- Then go back the other way until it hits again. Mark the balancer  again. 
- Remove your piece of metal, and measure exactly between those two marks on the balancer.  That is TRUE TDC.  It should be the same place the balancer says TDC, but it may be a little off
- Turn the engine until your new mark lines up with the pointer.  That is TDC, and eliminates all variables (assuming you measure the ceter point accurately)
- The dial indicator is tougher, can be off a little because both piston dwell and rock can add a little variance
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2019, 04:33:33 PM »
The pistons I mentioned a couple of days ago are 1.875 compression height.  The 8554PT and the 8045PT gaskets are .051 compressed.  10.155 to 10.160 would give .040 to .045 quench.  Generally speaking, a cleanup of .010 on the deck would make it nice.  Would only be around .005 in the hole if you took a chance on not doing a cleanup mill.  I have 6.540 length Molnar rods here to go with the pistons if you wanted light, strong replacement rods.

I also keep 4.035 pistons on the shelf for 4.250 crank and 6.700 rod Strokers if you really get the bug.........
Blair Patrick

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2019, 05:40:41 PM »
My427stang

 I have plenty of metal laying around to make up a tool like that. Sounds easier than messing with the dial indicator.  I'll talk with Blair about his pistons some more.  Sounds like I'll have less problems with the pistons instead vs milling the deck that far down. I'm guessing the intake wont line up very good if I take that much off the deck.

Captcobrajet

I'll PM you for a price on those pistons. Are the stock rods not good for around 300 hp?  I'm just trying to get this 352 to run better.  At some point I'll be building a stroker for it but that's down the road quite aways.  I have a $1000 budget  could maybe swing $1200 to get it done.  What's the best option here?  The machine shop here said $400-$600 for a bore and hone job. Decking the block is $360,  $75 to mill each head and 200 to hone the bores to ensure a good seal.  Looking at $710 plus tax to go that route.  I'll call around to a few other shops in my area and see what they have to say too.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 06:31:06 PM by Dieselman966 »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2019, 06:54:35 PM »
Your rods would be fine for what you describe, as long as the big end bore and bolts are in good shape.  Those rods are "skinny" but I have taken hundreds of those engines apart over the years, and I don't think I ever have seen one broken in a regular service engine.  I knew a guy (Kip Martin) who raced them at 8500 rpm in a 352, but he knew how to fix the big end to live there without turning bearings.    Beams didn't break!  Sent you back a PM.
Blair Patrick

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 08:10:06 AM »
I finally got some measuring done on my block.  I'm seeing as much as .010 from my highest measurement of .0705 to my lowest of .0805.  Seems like a  lot of variation or is this pretty typical.  My tdc was off by one degree. Checked with a hard stop. 

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2019, 10:31:21 AM »
Lots of heat cycles, not the best machining way back when, and a total variance of less than .005 on each deck...pretty normal.

My guess is that it'll clean up at 10.150-10.155, then you can either turn it into something bigger or go with a good set of tight quench pistons for the 352

---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2019, 09:23:36 PM »
Looks like I have something going on in this engine. Seems like a lot of wear for it being a fresh rebuild.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2019, 10:41:38 PM »
What causes the the scoring on the cylinders like this?

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 07:56:42 AM »
That usually happens from not deburring and rolling the edge at the bottom of the cylinders.  If it has been bored and honed, and has not been hand massaged, there will be a knife edge at the bottom of the bores.........
Blair Patrick

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 09:52:11 PM »
I finally got some measuring done on my block.  I'm seeing as much as .010 from my highest measurement of .0705 to my lowest of .0805.  Seems like a  lot of variation or is this pretty typical.  My tdc was off by one degree. Checked with a hard stop.

I'm not clear on how you are measuring this, but the .010 variation could easily be in the connecting rods.  I check deck variation with an indicator by using the same conecting rod and piston and moving it from hole to hole. A little time consuming but it seems an accurate way to check a block.  (Have you checked the center to center length of the rods?)
(About 50 years ago I once "repaired" a rod knock in a '53 Desoto for which another rod was unobtainable, by grinding the crank, just cleaning up the rod and resizing it. It was almost .050 shorter, but Grandpa never knew!)

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2019, 05:47:02 PM »
I finally got some measuring done on my block.  I'm seeing as much as .010 from my highest measurement of .0705 to my lowest of .0805.  Seems like a  lot of variation or is this pretty typical.  My tdc was off by one degree. Checked with a hard stop.

I'm not clear on how you are measuring this, but the .010 variation could easily be in the connecting rods.  I check deck variation with an indicator by using the same conecting rod and piston and moving it from hole to hole. A little time consuming but it seems an accurate way to check a block.  (Have you checked the center to center length of the rods?)
(About 50 years ago I once "repaired" a rod knock in a '53 Desoto for which another rod was unobtainable, by grinding the crank, just cleaning up the rod and resizing it. It was almost .050 shorter, but Grandpa never knew!)

I measured the pistons as they sat in the bores with a dial indicator and a magnetic base. 

I ended up having the block decked .070 and the heads surfaced another .020.  I also had the machine shop take .090 off of the intake side of the heads so the intake would match up properly.  Well see how it all comes together now. I have the first 2 pistons installed so far.  Number 1 is .010 in the hole still. I'll check the rest as I go along here.  Hopefully this will get me burning rubber for a few years until I can build the 390 for it.

Tommy A

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2019, 10:20:21 PM »
Dieselman, instead of blowing all that money4 cometics  too bad you could not find at set of the old Ford steel  shim .015 or .020 thick gaskets............Tom

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2019, 11:40:57 AM »
Dieselman, instead of blowing all that money4 cometics  too bad you could not find at set of the old Ford steel  shim .015 or .020 thick gaskets............Tom

I'll just be running regular felpro head gaskets now.  No need to run the thinner expensive one after decking the block

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2019, 08:14:16 AM »
Motor is assembled.  Everything came together good in the end. I'm just waiting on the distributor from Faron then I'll be able to run the car.  In hind site I should have listened to the previous advice and found a 390.  Would have been the same cost or cheaper in the long run.  Or the custom piston route would have saved me some money in the long run.  I guess I'll see how well this runs now before being to harsh on my self lol. 

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #39 on: October 20, 2019, 11:03:35 PM »
Finally took the galaxie for a drive further than a half mile from the house after I figured out why the car was not shifting right.  The line fell off the modulator on the transmission.  Shifts great now.  The car has about as much power as you would expect it to for what it. Now I need some gears and and some brake work done.