Author Topic: Stock 352.  (Read 9626 times)

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Dieselman966

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Stock 352.
« on: December 26, 2018, 01:42:57 AM »
Hi guys. I have been digging around to figure out why my 352 seems to be low on power. I bought my 65 galaxie 500 with the 352 rebuilt. Stock specs with a comp cams 33-222-3 cam. Only other thing different from stock is the .030 over sized piston.  I'm not sure if I'm expecting to much but it just seems like a big slouch. I have the initial timing set at *12 and all in timing is at *38. Compression test showed 125 +- 1 or 2 on all cylinders. I sold my 72 scamp that had a rebuilt 360 magnum in it with 2.76 gears and that car ripped pretty good. Is there something I'm missing here? The galaxie weighs 400 lbs more than the scamp. Seems like that shouldn't make that much of a difference.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2018, 08:10:09 AM »
Compression seems low at 125 if you were WOT and a decent battery. Maybe throw a vacuum gauge on it and see what you have for idle vacuum.  If bouncing around, could be a valve issue, if steady, could be cam timing, pistons deep in the hole with the common .053 Felpro head gasket.

However, one thing you could do is check how fast the curve comes in, if it does have builder pistons and a thick head gasket, it'd want the timing in as quick as it can handle it.
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2018, 09:59:35 AM »
Hi guys. I have been digging around to figure out why my 352 seems to be low on power. I bought my 65 galaxie 500 with the 352 rebuilt. Stock specs with a comp cams 33-222-3 cam. Only other thing different from stock is the .030 over sized piston.  I'm not sure if I'm expecting to much but it just seems like a big slouch. I have the initial timing set at *12 and all in timing is at *38. Compression test showed 125 +- 1 or 2 on all cylinders. I sold my 72 scamp that had a rebuilt 360 magnum in it with 2.76 gears and that car ripped pretty good. Is there something I'm missing here? The galaxie weighs 400 lbs more than the scamp. Seems like that shouldn't make that much of a difference.
EDIT: Ross had good suggestions for what you have on hand but you will still have .100" or so quench.

Likely those .030" over pisrons are about .060" below deck. More if the deck was not cut. Ford was putting there flat top (no valve reliefs) .050" below deck in 65 with steel shim head gaskets. The C4AE-G heads are about 74cc in stock form. If they were cut it is likely you gained the volume back with the valve reliefs. A big help would be a simple head swap to a C3AE-C head. Your exhaust will bolt up and seal. I know of a man in Nevada, Texas that has a couple of the non-406 Denver 390 heads.
https://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/pts/d/nevada-many-fe-ford-cylinder-heads/6755030183.html

Another bolt up help with compression would be some heads I have. They were cut by a pretty sharp guy. He had a .030" over 352 with the 1.8125? tall pistons like yours. He cut up some heads that fit in the hole giving him a .042" or so quench. They were cut to compensate the Felpro 1020 gasket and the bad piston design. If you want them pm me. They were on his running 352 but will need rebuilt.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 10:05:29 AM by chris401 »

CaptCobrajet

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2018, 10:43:14 AM »
These guys are telling you right.  Your engine likely has 80cc heads if they have had a valve job and even a light surfacing.  Rebuilder 4-valve relief pistons at least .050 in the hole, 12.5 cc in a thick Fel Pro gasket, etc......and it shakes out to about 7.65 to 1.  That's why it feels weak.That would be a whole different animal with another two full points of compression.

Chris, that looks like Wade White's heads from several years back.  I remember he did that at one point.
Blair Patrick

FrozenMerc

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2018, 11:00:32 AM »
Check compression, that is most likely your problem.  I have 9.5:1 352 and it is no slouch, even in a big Monterrey Wagon. 

You might want to spend a few hundred bucks on a chassis dyno session, just to confirm a few things such as the distributor curve, AFR, etc, and it will give you justification for your seat of the pants feeling.

You didn't mention the transmission type or if it had been rebuilt.  A tired Cruis-O will eat up a ton of horsepower as well.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2018, 11:21:24 AM »
I would have to check the vacuum reading again. I remember it being quite a bit lower than my magnum 360 was. Around 15" at idle. My magnum was over 20" for comparison.  The needle is steady for the most part. It seems to fluctuate with a stumble that the engine has. I can't seem to find a reason for that. The exhaust manifolds were leaking pretty bad so I am currently putting headers on it. With some different exhaust. I hoping to be able to figure out the stumble them. 

The transmission is a rebuilt cruise-o-matic. I have paper work on that also.

Sounds like I am battling a low compression issue.  Would my c4ae 6090g heads be worth having worked over? They were rebuilt with the engine also. Chris401 the heads you have were machined down to fit inside the cylinder bore? Does that create any flow issues or is that less of a problem than the low compression issue.  And what would have to be done to the intake to fit with those heads?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:01:30 PM by Dieselman966 »

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2018, 12:26:44 PM »
I would have to check the vacuum reading again. I remember it being quite a bit lower than my magnum 360 was. Around 15" at idle. My magnum was over 20" for comparison.  The needle is steady for the most part. It seems to fluctuate with a stumble that the engine has. I can't seem to find a reason for that. The exhaust manifolds were leaking pretty bad so I am currently putting headers on it. With some different exhaust. I hoping to be able to figure out the stumble them. 

The transmission is a rebuilt cruise-o-matic. I have paper work on that also.

Sounds like I am battling a low compression issue.  Would my c4ae 6090g heads be worth having worked over? They were rebuilt with the engine also. Chris401 the heads you have were machines down to fit inside the cylinder bore? Does that create any flow issues or is that less of a problem than the low compression issue.
Yes Blair these are Wade's old heads. He gave them to me when I bought some other parts. I was battling a budget at the time and did not spend the money having the heads redone. I had the whole engine in pieces.

Dieselman, the heads sit flush on the block and down into the bore. I never did run these. The previous owner was battling to get over 12 miles per gallon in his 65 Galaxie but I cannot say what the problem was. When I mocked up these heads to the block there was not much movement. A guess based off of a 5 year old memory I would say less than .010" bore clearance. Not sure how or if that extra "slack" effected combustion and swirl. I figured if the heads did not fit the next 4.030" bore the chamber drop could be shaved leaving you qith a little better .060" quench. They are your for shipping.

The C4AE-G heads are good heads. One member made mention of a venturi ring built into those intake ports. I will leave it up to him to elaborate. I run a stockish 66 Galaxie 352 in my show truck pictured in my avitar. The bores were good so I kept the factory flat tops. .049-.050" in the hole. Bolted up some fresh D2TE-AA heads with .021" steel shim gaskets. Problem I had was the heads had a rough surface causing two sets of shim gaskets to leak oil. When I swapped to some .042" rebuilders gaskets i lost about 1.5 miles per gallon.

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 11:40:51 PM »
Went to the garage to finish welding the exhaust this morning and decided to pull the intake to investigate a vacuum leak. Ended up pulling the passenger side head off to take some measurements. Pistons are .079 in the hole with felpro 8554pt head gaskets. Specs say they are .0468-.0572 thickness.  This puts me just over 8:1 compression.

chris401

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2019, 08:54:19 AM »
Went to the garage to finish welding the exhaust this morning and decided to pull the intake to investigate a vacuum leak. Ended up pulling the passenger side head off to take some measurements. Pistons are .079 in the hole with felpro 8554pt head gaskets. Specs say they are .0468-.0572 thickness.  This puts me just over 8:1 compression.
Those are big gaskets. You will have a little help with a .041" Felpro 1020. If you like the milling finish don't be afraid to use a steel shim gasket. They can be a headache but if your finish is good a .021" will help compression. Make sure your lifters are bled down before hand.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2019, 10:29:29 AM »
What are you using for head volume and piston volume? You have a 246AP cast piston in there, not sure of relief size, but using your deck clearance, 73 cc for the heads and 6 cc for the pistons I am getting 7.77:1 compression.  Those pistons should be .064 in the hole with an uncut deck, using that number I get 7.94 with a 6 cc valve relief.  Still low

Using .064...
- A Felpro 1020 will get you to 8.13 in that case. 
- I would be afraid of a shim gasket, only because of sealing on old surfaces, but if you could get it to seal, a .020 shim will get you to 8.51

I wouldn't go more, because you don't have any quench so it will be fussy on fuel.  In fact, I think I'd likely buy a single 8554 and put it back if you haven't pulled the other head, recurve the distributor for a common performance curve for later, run it for now, and build a nice zero deck 390, even if it's a stock performance version, but pick parts for the use.

The distributor recurve, something like 22 in the distributor in by 2800, with 16 initial, will pick it up as much as it's going to get, and still be appropriate for the next engine, then build a nice little 390

I don't see any real way to make it perform the way it sounds like you want without going deep. 
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2019, 10:57:39 AM »
I'm going to check out a set of heads that are local to me. Guy claims smaller combustion chambers but not sure by how much. 

The cc specs posted for the pistons are 6.3. That's what I was using along with 73 for chamber cc. Piston is .079 in the hole. Checked it a half dozen times.

I was gonna put the heads back on with these gaskets. .027 thickness and maybe the heads this guy has up here if they check out.
https://www.cometic.com/i-24769458-ford-fe-big-block-352-428ci-v8-027-mls-cylinder-head-gasket-4-080-gasket-bore-each.html

Kind of sounds like I might be throwing good money after bad money her though. Itll be a few years before I can put a motor together for it just trying to put a bandaid on it for now.

My427stang

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2019, 11:30:38 AM »
I'm going to check out a set of heads that are local to me. Guy claims smaller combustion chambers but not sure by how much. 

The cc specs posted for the pistons are 6.3. That's what I was using along with 73 for chamber cc. Piston is .079 in the hole. Checked it a half dozen times.

I was gonna put the heads back on with these gaskets. .027 thickness and maybe the heads this guy has up here if they check out.
https://www.cometic.com/i-24769458-ford-fe-big-block-352-428ci-v8-027-mls-cylinder-head-gasket-4-080-gasket-bore-each.html

Kind of sounds like I might be throwing good money after bad money her though. Itll be a few years before I can put a motor together for it just trying to put a bandaid on it for now.

So we are in the ballpark, but mathematically it doesn't make sense unless your rods were reworked unresonably. (3.50/2)+6.54+1.816 = 10.106.  Subtracted from a virgin block at 10.170 = .064.  If they accidentally used 390 rods you'd be in the .100s even with a big cut to the block.  However, it really doesn't matter as anything over about .060 your quench is gone and you are above .100.

There are few heads that will be significantly smaller chamber.  However, a set of C0AE-D heads could be, but don't get caught up in getting the compression up significantly. A 60cc chamber, if you find a set, would get you above 9:1, but you still have no quench and A tight quench higher compression engine will generally be better on fuel than a moderate one with no quench.  If the other heads are indeed C0AE-D heads and about 60cc, they'd get you into the 9:1, but be ready, because it could be fussy on fuel

Remember, the cause of your low power is likely not just compression, the pistons are deep in the hole, the timing curve is slow and the cam, although good, is a little bigger than stock and heads don't fix any of that other than compression.

Don't discount the distributor recurve, it isn't lip service, a stock Ford distributor and all aftermarket distributors deliver with too much mechanical, which comes in too slow, that big curve limits the amount of initial you can run.  You get your initial up to 18 or so, and coming in quicker (within reason) to 40 total, it'll gain some snap, likely as much as you'd get out of a set of heads for much cheaper.

Second, if you are willing to get inside, you could advance the cam too, it's also cheaper.  You are at 106 IF the timing set was a decent one, bu it could just be off.  Bringing the cam forward 2-3 degrees, degreeing it and putting at 103-104 centerline, along with the recurve will be noticeable and under 200 bucks total for both, and undoable for the next build.

Some here like DCR calculations, some don't, but say you slapped a set of 1020s in there. 8.1 static, 6.87 dynamic compression.  If you advance the cam 3 degrees, dynamic ends up at 7:1, that is the equiv of raising static to 8.3 with a 70 cc head. 

You may lose at WOT, but you will gain vacuum and torque, how much depends on where the cam is now and where you put it.

Last, Wade's old heads did something VERY different than a smaller chamber.  They dropped the quench pad into the cylinder and brought the entire chamber lower, this made the engine act like the pistons were not deep in the hole.  If those heads are usable, that's an interesting option, and could be beneficial, especially if Wade rubbed on them a little, but throwing a set of heads on that will gain anything significant in compression may not get you where you want to be in driveability and likely is just throwing money away

There is one last option, but I think it's another "cut of the nose despite the face" option, assuming you run manifolds, cut and prep a set of small port truck heads. You get to around 68 ccs, and you gain a little torque, but you'd lose overall peak power due to the poor flowing heads and you still have the quench issue. 

In the end, if you rolled in there with both heads on and on a budget or delayed timeline.  I'd recurve, check the throttle for WOT first, then advance the cam if it wasn't enough.  BTW, cranking compression will go up when you advance, you can see it. If that wasn't enough and you were set on getting compression up, I'd yank that engine and put a set of pistons that approach zero deck, but there goes the budget

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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

WerbyFord

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2019, 09:44:22 PM »

352’s can feel soggy especially down low compared to a 390. It may sound strange but the 352 is a short-stroke big-port revver.
So they are soggy down low and a little weak up high due to the tiny cam.
Yours has a better cam, about the equal of a 390gt cam, but even soggier compression at 7.9 or so and a soggy deck.
That’s the weakest part of it.

Here are some Gonkulator numbers:
Stock 65 Gal, 352/250 FX 3.00 gears, just 2” duals.
4040 curb + driver
Torq 316 at 2000
Torq 333 at 2700
Powr 261 at 4500 (underrated)
2.55
10.76 at 66.6
16.62 at 84.1mph
9.0 0-60mph
The 352/250ghp was actually underrated which made it a fairly competitive combo in NHRA, if that’s any consolation.
It’s only about 10hp below the old “352/300ghp” which was almost the same engine.

Under similar prep:
1974 Dart 360/245net (I don’t have a 72 Scamp handy)
3450 curb + driver
15.07 at 91.5mph
6.9 0-60mph
(That’s the 360 Magnum which replaced the hot 340, Mopar’s hot ticket for 1974).
Mopar was the last of the Big 4 (yes, there was the AMC 401 back then) to give up into the dark era.

That scamp is about 600 lb lighter than you Gal. The beauty of the Gal just makes it look lighter.
And yes it will feel and run like a dog compared to a stock 352/250hp.

Now let’s rebuild it, say .030 but at about 7.9 CR and .130 total quench.

Torq 292 at 2000 -24
Torq 307 at 2700 -26
Powr 241 at 4500 -20
2.63
11.11 at 64.6
17.14 at 82.2mph (down 1.9mph)
9.8 0-60mph

Here’s that super hot Comp 260H cam at 212-212-110 .484 .484 4 advanced
Torq 266 at 2000 -26 even worse!
Torq 309 at 3200 +2
Powr 265 at 4800 +24
2.74
11.25 at 65.4 (SLOWER than stock cam in 1/8 mile)
17.20 at 83.8mph
9.7 0-60mph
Wrong cam for that soggy 352.

Lets put headers and 2-1/2 duals on there for when you do the stroker kit.
I used 1-3/4 x 34” which are too big so they don’t help much.
Torq 260 at 2000
Torq 303 at 3200
Powr 267 at 5100
2.76
11.26 at 65.7
17.19 at 84.1mph
9.6 0-60mph
The headers actually hurt it. The 2.5” pipes helped a little but not much.

Not enough inches, soggy, 7.9 CR or so. That’s whats hurting it.

Make it a zero-deck 9.6 CR 390cid and it will wake right up and put that scamp on the trailer.
Well ok you’ll need a carb and intake, eg 735 Holley and 428pi intake.
Nothing wrong with the c4ae-g heads.
Torq 344 at 2000 +84
Torq 402 at 3300 +99 wow
Powr 347 at 5000 +80
2.40
9.81 at 74.3
15.03 at 94.2 over 10mph gain.
6.9 0-60mph
There’s the fix! Get more CID (390 cranks are almost free these days), fix the quench & compression problems, all at the same time.
Gaining almost 100 ponies from just a crank is HUGE.
Now you can take on that ugly lightweight scamp.
Of course a 445cid would be better yet but the 390 option would be almost free, and the 445cid would destroy your trans in a hurry.

I don’t even know if I’d bother with the headers right now.
I think this lays out the reasons it is such a spongy dog. Fixing those is really what it wants.


Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2019, 10:51:52 PM »
My427stang what is the quench doing? I'm just trying to understand what's going on here.  Seems to be all higher compression is not created equal.  Does the higher quench number make for bad combustion?

Werbyford

Ultimately I'll be doing another engine. It's just a bummer to get rid of this engine with it being a fresh rebuild.  From what I have read swapping a 390 crank in to the block I have would require the crank, rods and cylinders getting bored another .020 over to take the 390 pistons.

I think I'll just get a head gasket and put it back together. Better to have a driver while I sort this out.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 10:54:43 PM by Dieselman966 »

Dieselman966

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Re: Stock 352.
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2019, 11:21:55 PM »
I forgot to ask. Would using the cometic head gaskets that have a compressed thickness of .027 be worth putting since I have one head off? Or just save the money for the stroker build?