Author Topic: Confused and at a loss  (Read 9875 times)

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69Shakar

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Confused and at a loss
« on: September 27, 2018, 02:42:04 PM »
It’s been mentioned about streetability manners being taken into account for my plans on my 445 build. I have looked and listened to various dyno runs and wondered would it work on the street? None of them seemed to have an unruly idle to them. The dyno charts show anywhere from 3-4K starting rpm and I understand the reasoning behind that. I realize that I’m going to have a tire roasting monster under the hood. My question what are streetability manners.

Heo

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 03:19:41 PM »
Well i think Streetability is different from one person to another
typically your granny wont like a 306 deg camshaft while i think its
streetabel
A 445 is More streetabel than a 390 att same powerlevel. It can take
more cam due to longer stroke and more volume



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shady

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 03:46:27 PM »
Streetable to me is a car I can drive 50 or 100 miles without using race gas or cringing at every red light trying to keep the car running, worrying about overheating and is generally dependable. I have a friend with a mid 8 second street drivin car that he drives for about two miles at a time at the most. Needs race gas and if he isn't real careful, wrecks a sprag in his tranny. To me that's not streetable or fun.
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chilly460

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 03:49:08 PM »
I honestly think you have to get in some cars and see for yourself what they're like, I know my perception vs what I read in newspapers and what I see online are different.  I personally think a lot of guys just pass information on without having real experience. 

First one that comes to mind, I drove '66 Fairlane with wide ratio toploader, 3.89 gear, 466ci 385 series, 850dp, Torker manifold with a Comp 292H.   I think perception is with wide ratio and 3.89 this would be "ok" but with single plane and decent amount of cam in it and the 850 which has larger venturi which some call lazy, most would consider a little iffy for street?  Well, first time driving a toploader, I started out in third gear by accident...twice...and didn't stall it.  Did same thing pulling 4th instead of 2nd and it handled it at low rpm.  Pulled absolutely fine at 2000, started to pull hard around 3500.   Definitely knew it had some cam to it but would idle steady at 900rpm all day as I recall.  Considering ports in a FE are smaller than a 460 based motor, I'd think torque would be stronger down low and in the midrange.   Guessing 3800lbs with driver.

250ish degree solid roller in a 427ci SBF, AFR 225 heads, Super Victor intake, toploader and 3.50 gear in a '63 Fairlane.  Two dudes in the car, guessing 3700-3800lbs?  Had to be lazy down low with the large cam, big intake, mild gear?   Car was an animal on street tires, stupid.  Guy eventually got it to the track think it did mid 11s but at 125mph or so.  Again, had some cam to it and wouldn't run power brakes, but it didn't load up or act snotty around streets of Detroit.  Part throttle running around shifting 2500-2700 it acted fine, that said it was not a sub 2000rpm combo. 

My little 390 in chubby '63 Merc.  224/230 hydraulic roller, TKO 500, 4.10 rear, 750dp, Performer RPM.  Handles Overdrive fine at 1600rpm if needed, it will accelerate just fine in O/D anything over 2000rpm.  Car idles all day at 850rpm, I can idle it down to 650rpm if I really feel like it but I like it to sling around a little oil at idle, plus it is pretty sloppy when cold if I try that.  I'd literally run this in a truck application (maybe just swap on a vacuum sec carb), no issue, on a chassis dyno torque peaked at 3500rpm.   

A 445 will handle 230* cam no sweat unless you're putting it in a tow truck, put good modern cam lobes on it to keep advertised duration in check, put a good sharp timing curve in it and get the carb working nice and crisp at part throttle and it'll be an incredible combo.   I think the biggest feedback I'd give is get for making a car streetable is get a modern Overdrive in the car, someway somehow.  TKO trans has a deep first gear to help with any softness down low, O/D lets you run plenty of gear but still cruise easy on the highway, I run 2200-2300 at 70 with a 4.10 gear and it's perfect.  If for some reason you run an auto, modern autos can run lockup convertors in O/D and keep heat and slushiness out at cruise, and I believe most modern o/d autos trend to deeper first gear. 

Video I threw together of putzing around going to work, some lazy shifts at 2200rpm, some WOT stuff, just as a reference.  Cam guys can confirm, but I'd think the 224* cam in my 390 would act about the same as a 230-232* cam in a 445.  I have weak suck 9.2:1 compression, most 445 combos are going to be higher than that so would be a bit crisper down low. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k136_EJhi1A&t=143s
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 04:17:48 PM by chilly460 »

69Shakar

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 11:27:06 PM »
Thank you for the video.. engine sounds great!! My Torino is now a wide ratio c6 3.25 gears at 70 I’m turning 2700 rpms after going to 28x10 tires it used to be 3200 with stock tires... as long as I have some vacuum for my brakes I’ll be happy... I know this engine won’t have a smooth idle it’s a muscle car.... not a tea toting car.. if I want to pass someone I don’t plan to lollygag past them but be a low flying jet...people hear speed up to keep you from passing....

Barry_R

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 05:21:27 AM »
Streetability is about a compromise between power desires and practicality.  We take a different approach when building a package for an optioned out Thunderbird, a truck for towing, or a Cobra with road race intent.  And - we have built 445 combinations for all of those vehicles.  The key parts here are compression ratio and camshaft selection - underneath that simple statement is cylinder pressure management.

A vehicle used for towing will see high loads at relatively low RPM.  Getting the most torque in that range means a fairly mild (by current standards) camshaft to bring the torque peak down to the lower operating speeds.  To avoid detonation from the higher cylinder pressures such a cam delivers we will reduce the compression ratio..  No matter what the internet DCR calculators say - at peak torque a 10:1 compression engine is exactly that - and if peak torque and cylinder pressure occurs in a range where loads are higher than available fuel can support - you are going to have a problem.  Other factors also enter into fuel tolerance - such as chamber shape, bore diameter, piston shape, port volume and charge velocity - but those are far harder to quantify, explain, or change.

The opposing scenario is also true - if you build an engine for a lightweight car that will accelerate past peak torque quickly with minimal load - such as the Cobra - you can get far more assertive on compression.  Within these boundaries you can select your favorite place in the range.  The "truck" variation will deliver a very stable idle, lots of vacuum, and really good street manners at the cost of comparable high RPM power.  The Cobra example will have a hot rod rattle at idle, minimal vacuum, and softer bottom end couple with a high RPM rush.  Any of these will pretty much crush a smaller displacement 390 in terms of street performance with the milder package still stronger than the 390 upstairs and the wilder one still stronger than a 390 down low.

blykins

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 05:54:14 AM »
Streetability is in the eye of the beholder. 

Most of my personal "street" engines have been higher compression (still on pump gas though), large cams, big gears, etc. 

Streetability to you may mean something totally different. 

However, there are some "requirements" that go with that term.  Power brakes will require some vacuum to operate, or as a last resort, you can install a vacuum reservoir, or a pump.  Where you drive makes a big difference also.  If you're in an area (like me) where there are very long lengths of 2-lane roads with little to no traffic at times, then you can be a little more liberal with the choices.  If you're in an area where it's all stop and go and then you get on an interstate highway and go to the next exit, then you may have to be more conservative and aim for a combination that won't be a burden to you in all those stops and gos.

I've been building engines for people for a very long time and it's interesting to hear my customers' version of what streetable is to them.  It's most always different.
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chilly460

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2018, 06:41:50 AM »
If it was a choice of being heavily compromised by the need for vacuum for power brakes, could also look into Hydroboost options to allow the cam you prefer.

e philpott

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 07:52:37 AM »
Electric Vacuum pump is the way to go on power brakes , just take the engine out of the equation

Voodoojl

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 09:25:20 AM »
Nice video Chilly460.  Can you provide the cam specs for your 390.  Also any idea on your vacuum at idle (power brake friendly?).

chilly460

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2018, 09:33:27 AM »
That video was a Comp 270H 224/224 .519/.519 on a 110LSA, was installed at 102LCA. 

I updated to hydraulic roller which runs basically exactly the same as far as driveability
224/230* .563/.563 on a 110LSA installed at 106

Both are right at 13inHg at 850rpm idle

I don't currently have power brakes but the engine was in a '76 F250 previously and the power brakes functioned 100% in that application

runthatjunk

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2018, 06:35:26 PM »
That video was a Comp 270H 224/224 .519/.519 on a 110LSA, was installed at 102LCA. 

I updated to hydraulic roller which runs basically exactly the same as far as driveability
224/230* .563/.563 on a 110LSA installed at 106

Both are right at 13inHg at 850rpm idle

I don't currently have power brakes but the engine was in a '76 F250 previously and the power brakes functioned 100% in that application

Is this something you drive enough to have a good feel for the fuel economy? That sounds awesome, nice video
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chilly460

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2018, 06:44:53 PM »
Hmmm, checked it a few times, always 15mpg or so.  I drive it like you saw, take it easy, full WOT two gears, back to cruising.  I think it’ll do 17mpg hwy but I never really tried, but it cruises smooth and easy at 70mpy at 2300 or so, from other combos I know it’s loafing along

fryedaddy

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2018, 03:43:28 PM »
to me streetable is when you can cruise at 2000-3000 rpms smooth. when you get to the point where you have to run 3000+ to smooth out, then i think its not streetable.my 433 with a 245 cam i think is borderline.
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blu64galaxie

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Re: Confused and at a loss
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2018, 09:02:00 PM »
Love your video as well Chilly !  :D

My 390 seems similar to your 'before' cam setup, ie; 270H, ED intake & heads, similar C/R as well.  Quite a 'wow' difference in SLR between your TKO and my T-10 though !! ... as seen in your launch. Mine may spin a tire, if someone happened to spill their water or pop under the tire, teehee.

This is a video of mine  'rowing' thru the gears after I added the heads this spring -   https://www.facebook.com/norm.russo.9/videos/2207870569228140/?t=1

To give the OP my 2 cents and keep this on-thread ---  I live in a densely populated metro, with maany long lights and you always need to be making lefts here it seems. Plus, any one of you who hit the car show circuit has probably sat through a long line or two  >:(. ..... I don't mind a surly idling brute so much (in a stick shift), but my biggie is keeping the temp gauge off my radar and not fretting about it. We don't have many hills here, so sitting at a long light and/or waiting out traffic snarls and above mentioned car show lines doesn't require 3-4 feet to run the pedals -- but it can sure test your cooling system  --more so if your engine is now putting out mucho more ponies.
And I live in the 'polar north' compared to many here. lol

Thanks much !    Norm

That video was a Comp 270H 224/224 .519/.519 on a 110LSA, was installed at 102LCA. .............
Norm Russo  blu64galaxie

1964 Galaxie 500  aka 'the blue goose'