Has anyone welded intake port floors?

[My427stang]

First, not asking which epoxy to use or why not to fill the intake floors   This is as much a research question as it is a possible action

I am considering taking a  low-riser Portosonic and working it to med riser port size with additional porting a few other modifications to support EFI

The reason I am not asking for epoxy is this could easily be a 15+ year engine and I am not happy with epoxy and how the leading edge attaches to the floor over time with heat cycles.

I have considered two options, rolling the floor of the head a little, not port matching, just a light roll to take away a shear surface (it's not a valuable head but flows well)  or welding the floors to port to true medium riser size and shape

The questions I have about those who have welded intakes

- How much does the intake crawl around with heat?  Needless to say I will have to true the faces, but what has been everyone's experience?  This is a pretty nice P-sonic and I'd hate to turn it into an exercise gone bad

- Anything special to weld the floors on cast manifolds?  I have the ability to weld alum on my MiG, not sure the torch head is small enough though, so likely will have to farm out.

- Less likely, but does anyone have a cost example?

I took the day off, going to talk to one of the better machinists I use, so I will report back, but wondering if anyone has done something like this.

Thanks!

 

[HvyFt4spd]

 I can not directly answer any of your questions Ross but if you farm it out the guy who welded the test models for the TF heads is local and rather reasonable. Family business, pops is a Ford guy, so they might consider the job. He did some 406 heads for me that I cut the oil humps out of and a freeze cracked crossbolt block. He also repaired a 435hp 427 block for a points resto 67 Vette we did. The entire water jacket was separated, some detail work and you can't tell it was ever touched. First time I stopped out to talk he was putting chambers back in a set of Tunnelport and chasing cracks on an original set of Boss 9's.

 Thick as the casting is I'd guess it's rather forgiving if you go slow/ heat the casting evenly. In my case I don't have a furnace here so I fixture, preheat, and build up things slowly. Playing with an aluminum plenum recently where I filled in an inch tall void three inches long I was very surprised to find the carb flanges did not distort at all. It was mostly an experiment to see what I could get away with but the results were positive.

[jayb]

I've welded runner floors and roofs also, with both MIG and TIG.  I wouldn't try it with MIG again, lots of porosity, hard to control, etc., TIG is way better.  The trick is to preheat the aluminum in an oven, I have heated at 300 degrees for an hour or so.  Then, when you pull the intake out of the oven, wrap it in a welding blanket so that it maintains the heat.  Only expose the port you are working on, and when finished cover it with a blanket, expose the next port, weld, repeat.  Keep it covered after welding until it is completely cooled down.  Figure on removing 0.040" to 0.060" on the flange to square it up when finished. 

I've had to do this with a couple of Dove intakes, where the aluminum was rather questionable, hopefully a Port-O-Sonic would be easier.  But its a painful process in any case.

I know you don't want to use epoxy, but in your situation I would.  You have to understand that although the epoxy doesn't have perfect adhesion to the aluminum, it does adhere to itself very very well.  So, you grind away part of the face of the manifold at the floor, fill that depression with a thick tab of epoxy that will be sandwiched between the intake and the head, then fill the floor of the port.  Even if the epoxy wants to try to separate from the aluminum, that tab will hold it in place.  Use Splash Zone epoxy, and I don't think you'll ever have a problem with that fill.

[My427stang]

I've welded runner floors and roofs also, with both MIG and TIG.  I wouldn't try it with MIG again, lots of porosity, hard to control, etc., TIG is way better.  The trick is to preheat the aluminum in an oven, I have heated at 300 degrees for an hour or so.  Then, when you pull the intake out of the oven, wrap it in a welding blanket so that it maintains the heat.  Only expose the port you are working on, and when finished cover it with a blanket, expose the next port, weld, repeat.  Keep it covered after welding until it is completely cooled down.  Figure on removing 0.040" to 0.060" on the flange to square it up when finished. 

I've had to do this with a couple of Dove intakes, where the aluminum was rather questionable, hopefully a Port-O-Sonic would be easier.  But its a painful process in any case.

I know you don't want to use epoxy, but in your situation I would.  You have to understand that although the epoxy doesn't have perfect adhesion to the aluminum, it does adhere to itself very very well.  So, you grind away part of the face of the manifold at the floor, fill that depression with a thick tab of epoxy that will be sandwiched between the intake and the head, then fill the floor of the port.  Even if the epoxy wants to try to separate from the aluminum, that tab will hold it in place.  Use Splash Zone epoxy, and I don't think you'll ever have a problem with that fill.

Thanks guys, I will think about it

BTW, I realized my USAF experience had me screw up my abbreviation.  I have a MIG, metal inert gas welder, not a MiG, Mikoyan-i-Gurevich Design Bureau fighter aircraft....although I'd probably dump the Mustang if I had a modern one to play with....

[KMcCullah]

Never welded port floors in a POS but I have welded the exhaust crossovers shut. With the relatively small amount of heat needed to do the job, the intake flanges warped like crazy. Sucked oil with a 90145 gasket. Plan on fly-cutting.

[Barry_R]

Its really easy to weld up an aluminum intake.
You drive it over to Marcella and beg....

He has done extensive welding for me on heads and intakes.  He uses a really high end TIG with some customization and mixes his gas on the fly.  I don't think I have seen him use pre-heat or post heat but he may on stuff that I have not watched.  All of the welding I have seen him do is free handed.  I am not at all positive that he is entirely human though...

Stuff will move around a lot....

[Joe-JDC]

I know you didn't want the epoxy answer, but I have to disagree on welding when epoxy is so easy and trouble free long term if done properly.  I have heads on my personal vehicle with epoxy since 1992 in aluminum heads.  Anyway, I would drill/tap a small 10/32 hole and install a very short metal screw in each port floor, and then fill the port with Splash Zone epoxy to whatever level you need.  Put a triple layer of tape across the face of the intake, and press the epoxy into place.  Splash Zone is so easy, and it doesn't run, drip, or distort.  I am using it in my tunnel ram for my EMC engine.  I have already run the engine 46 dyno pulls, and will be going back on the dyno next week for more testing.  The epoxy did not show any signs of moving or damage.  Making some serious horsepower for what it is.  Joe-JDC

[My427stang]

I appreciate it, and I have never used Splash Zone, but I just don't want to go that route.

Even though this P-sonic a beauty, not sure if I want to put a ton of money in it either when it's good as is for a low riser or CJ build

Likely will buy a Victor and work on it instead.  I do appreciate it though.  If I could get Edelbrock to be a bit less proud of their Victors it'd be easy!

[falcongeorge]

I have tig welded cast aluminum, I can think of more fun ways to spend a day doing what you propose...getting a wisdom tooth pulled, for instance. I wouldn’t even consider trying to mig weld it. I’m with Jay here, splashzone.

[My427stang]

Thanks George, I am sold.  I am not interested in the epoxy, but I am going to wave off the welding idea. I'd sure like a med riser P-sonic, but in the end, I'll save this for someone's low riser or CJ.  The intake is too nice, and I have plenty of other options, may even go with the Edelbrock Victor EFI manifold. 

[Drew Pojedinec]

Never used splash zone?  It’s the stuff that keeps the fleet afloat.

I’ve patched boats many time with it. Ran around for years before proper repairs.

[Falcon67]

> know you didn't want the epoxy answer, but I have to disagree on welding when epoxy is so easy and trouble free long term if done properly. 

Same - every one I know uses Splash Zone for that, not welding.  The standard modification to 351C 4V port floors is to use cast tongues that are retained by a cap screw and Splash Zone.  I've also seen it used on methanol powered Jr Dragster motors - one luggers making 40+ HP.

[My427stang]

Never used splash zone?  It’s the stuff that keeps the fleet afloat.

I’ve patched boats many time with it. Ran around for years before proper repairs.

Same - every one I know uses Splash Zone for that, not welding.  The standard modification to 351C 4V port floors is to use cast tongues that are retained by a cap screw and Splash Zone.  I've also seen it used on methanol powered Jr Dragster motors - one luggers making 40+ HP.

I haven't used it, I have only used A/B putty from different suppliers and although I especially trust you guys and also the wide range of Speedtalk guys who use it, and promise I consider you great Americans   I don't want to do that, period.   Disagreeing with welding is OK and to not have to machine a sweetheart of a manifold is reason enough

I am convinced welding isn't the answer, but I don't want to use epoxy in a manifold with likely 12-15 years of 200 degree temperature changes and dissimilar materials, so I'll likely put it on the shelf and buy a Victor and prep it the way I want.

I even believe that it will likely last, but I just don't want to     It doesn't mean I think anyone else is foolish, I'd even run a plastic intake if someone made it, but I don't want to fill the floors that way.

[falcongeorge]

I don’t know if they still do, but AFR has a “composite” (composite, smomposite, it’s PLASTIC) intake available a couple years back. Actually, they have been around a long time, IIRC, Brandywine Cylinder heads had one out back in the nineties.

[Drew Pojedinec]

So wait.... are you saying you don’t want to use epoxy? 

[My427stang]

So wait.... are you saying you don’t want to use epoxy?

It also clashes with my cork end gaskets

[Falcon67]

So wait.... are you saying you don’t want to use epoxy?

It's not completely clear I think, have to read the comments again.   

Sorry, not saying you must do whatever either way, just stating that nobody I've seen uses welding.  The epoxy is quicker and easier to shape - and easier to remove - when playing port engineer on an intake or cylinder heads.  I'm quite sure no one here will object to any method you chose to achieve any results you desire.  "You pays your money, you gets to take your choices".  Share the results and we'll get a cup of something, sit around our warm LED displays and chat about it.

[falcongeorge]

I've welded runner floors and roofs also, with both MIG and TIG.  I wouldn't try it with MIG again, lots of porosity, hard to control, etc., TIG is way better.  The trick is to preheat the aluminum in an oven, I have heated at 300 degrees for an hour or so.  Then, when you pull the intake out of the oven, wrap it in a welding blanket so that it maintains the heat.  Only expose the port you are working on, and when finished cover it with a blanket, expose the next port, weld, repeat.  Keep it covered after welding until it is completely cooled down.  Figure on removing 0.040" to 0.060" on the flange to square it up when finished. 

I've had to do this with a couple of Dove intakes, where the aluminum was rather questionable, hopefully a Port-O-Sonic would be easier.  But its a painful process in any case.

I know you don't want to use epoxy, but in your situation I would.  You have to understand that although the epoxy doesn't have perfect adhesion to the aluminum, it does adhere to itself very very well.  So, you grind away part of the face of the manifold at the floor, fill that depression with a thick tab of epoxy that will be sandwiched between the intake and the head, then fill the floor of the port.  Even if the epoxy wants to try to separate from the aluminum, that tab will hold it in place.  Use Splash Zone epoxy, and I don't think you'll ever have a problem with that fill.

Thanks guys, I will think about it

BTW, I realized my USAF experience had me screw up my abbreviation.  I have a MIG, metal inert gas welder, not a MiG, Mikoyan-i-Gurevich Design Bureau fighter aircraft....although I'd probably dump the Mustang if I had a modern one to play with....

The only way a MiG is going to fit is if you are working on a tunnel port intake...

[Falcon67]

Fill the port with mix, crank up the gas and run that stick out waaaay out there.   

[falcongeorge]

Fill the port with mix, crank up the gas and run that stick out waaaay out there.   

I don’t think you saw what I did there...