Author Topic: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of. 9/1/18  (Read 7864 times)

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AlanCasida

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My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of. 9/1/18
« on: August 24, 2018, 08:48:48 PM »
Ok, I found that I had an oil leak on the front of the motor that my have depositing some oil on my crank pulley causing some slippage. I have probably replaced 50 of those front seals no problem, but I managed to tear this one. Anyway, while I had it all apart I checked the water pump impeller(OK), put the water pump bypass back in place and put in a Robert Shaw high flow t-stat. I too it for a 10 mile drive tonight and the water temp stayed around 185 on the highway and 190 driving in town. The water temp gauge "porpoising" went away too. However after about 5 mins of idling in the driveway the temp  crept up about 220. Not real good. As has been mentioned, I don't think my flex fan is moving enough air at idle. I still have time so I going to see what it takes to put in some electric fans. That extra thick radiator I have makes everything real close and I think that might have been why I went with a flex fan but I have slept since then!  ::)
I want to give a big THANK YOU to everyone who replied to my thread. I really appreciate it! 
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 02:51:26 PM by AlanCasida »

Katz427

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2018, 06:49:42 AM »
If going to an electric fan, buy a SPAL. They have a couple aerodynamic engineers who understand fan design. In the past I always tried to get a fan from a ford Taurus. They had a great fan design back in the first and second generation Taurus.  A thick radiator core requires a long chord ( fat) blade to overcome the added resistance.

My427stang

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2018, 08:14:32 AM »
It's not likely the most power producing measure, but for the money and the amount of airflow, I always push these fans

https://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/flex-a-lite/part-type/fans-mechanical/product-line/flex-a-lite-race-fans/hub-material/steel?N=400226%2B4294949148%2B303472%2B4294949134&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&autoview=SKU&ar=1

4 bolts, no thinking, and of course it won't provide between rounds cooling like an electric fan, they move a LOT of air compared to a flex and aren't noisy.  I have only used the steel ones, but if designed the same way, the aluminum should be a bit lighter

If you do decide to go an additional electric, it's still got to be big, and if you decide to lose the engine driven fan for only electric, go overboard, in the end, the last thing you want to do is spend the cash for less airflow than you have now.  Remember, at idle you have a 100 hp driven fan or so, no electrics have the power that you have available off the crank. 

That being said, I have seen guys have great success with Taurus and Lincoln fans, and years ago Tommy-T sent me a Volvo fan that really moves some air too
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 08:19:39 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2018, 08:35:23 AM »
Remember, at idle you have a 100 hp driven fan or so, no electrics have the power that you have available off the crank. 


Ross, I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. At idle, it doesn't matter how much power you have driving that fan, it's the lack of fan speed that causes the issue. That's where the electric does you the most good, because it maintains top airflow, irrelative of engine speed.

Alan, glad you got that figured out! I think with an electric, your slow speed and idle heating issues will practically disappear. I'm hoping anyway.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

jayb

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2018, 09:24:46 AM »
Doug is right about this, and Ross I'm kind of surprised to hear that you push those fans.  Fixed fans cost horsepower, even the cheaper flex fans take 10HP or so to run at high engine speeds.  I'll bet those fans you like take more.  A good electric fan (Spal) will cool better at idle speeds than any fixed fan because they are running at full speed, and of course they don't cost anywhere near as much power.  The problem that people get into with electric fans, IMO, is that they buy the cheap ones.  Those just don't work very well; for example the Flex-a-lite Black Magic fans are junk, based on my own experience.  They put out these ridiculously high cfm numbers in their advertising but when it comes to pulling air through an obstruction, like a thick radiator, they just don't work.

Recipe for effective cooling in a big engine, small engine compartment vehicle:  31" X 19" two core aluminum radiator with 1" or 1-1/4" cores, two Spal puller fans that are as large as you can fit (12" diameter minimum), no fan shroud, 180 degree thermostat, and four 1/8" holes drilled in the thermostat if there's no water pump bypass.  This has worked for me on my 1000 HP SOHC Shelby clone, in my Mach 1 when I had the 1200 HP supercharged FE installed, also the Mach 1 with the 850 HP high riser installed, and in both my Galaxie SOHC installations.  Works every time.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2018, 09:57:34 AM »
Doug is right about this, and Ross I'm kind of surprised to hear that you push those fans.  Fixed fans cost horsepower, even the cheaper flex fans take 10HP or so to run at high engine speeds.  I'll bet those fans you like take more.  A good electric fan (Spal) will cool better at idle speeds than any fixed fan because they are running at full speed, and of course they don't cost anywhere near as much power.  The problem that people get into with electric fans, IMO, is that they buy the cheap ones.  Those just don't work very well; for example the Flex-a-lite Black Magic fans are junk, based on my own experience.  They put out these ridiculously high cfm numbers in their advertising but when it comes to pulling air through an obstruction, like a thick radiator, they just don't work.

Recipe for effective cooling in a big engine, small engine compartment vehicle:  31" X 19" two core aluminum radiator with 1" or 1-1/4" cores, two Spal puller fans that are as large as you can fit (12" diameter minimum), no fan shroud, 180 degree thermostat, and four 1/8" holes drilled in the thermostat if there's no water pump bypass.  This has worked for me on my 1000 HP SOHC Shelby clone, in my Mach 1 when I had the 1200 HP supercharged FE installed, also the Mach 1 with the 850 HP high riser installed, and in both my Galaxie SOHC installations.  Works every time.

So, first to qualify my statement, my point is moving a ton of air with a fixed fan is easy, because you can go as aggressive of a pitch, as big as you can fit, and adjust pulley speed because you have plenty of power.  I wasn't inferring that somehow horsewpower = airflow. I apologize for the brevity

Second, remember what I build and where I come from, experiences in the desert and southern states as a guy that moved every 3 years for about 20 years shaped me since the days living up north. When in the northeast, I could almost take a fan off an engine and run it around town, same in 50% of Nebraska seasons, although summer is tough.  I also thought guys who couldn't keep things cool had some basic understanding problem

However, when stationed in Vegas, Alabama, and even to some lesser extent in Virginia, usually in stagnant tunnel traffic, I found that those fans worked so well (assuming you had a good pulley combination for the right shaft speed) that the cost on the street was worth the power.  In other words, it stayed so cool, so easily, in so many situations, that it would easily be worth the 10 hp to me and I likely could tune more aggressively with a more stable platform. 

I would also argue, that a 10 hp dyno test on a fan is likely accurate as a static test, may not be accurate when you have airflow at speed.  Assuming you don't need the fan because the airflow is adequate, then the fan likely isn't pulling as much, the pitch will create a speed and it's not going to be additive.  I'd love to see the trap speeds on a consistent car and see how it changes.

Of course, I won't argue that the same car can cool between rounds with an electric fan, can't do that with a fixed fan

Now, if trying to sneak every bit of HP out, I agree, but then, that means you might have to accept some other behavior.  A shock tower car has an exit airflow problem IMHO, and especially if no hood scoop or other way to relieve the exit air. 

I also agree with your success Jay, but, first it is "a recipe" not "the only recipe" but of your list, the only thing that would fit in a car like mine (shock tower FE car, battery up front) would be the drilled thermostat, which really doesn't apply at temp anyway.  So it's hard to compare your results, although I assume your Mach is still a shock tower car, but I would also assume you have a bit more room with your electric water pump, although I won't throw stones at your setup or anyone elses if it stays cool.  All I can say to the crowd is trust me things aren't the same throughout the US, you'd likely find Jesus if you were temps that blister your hand if you leave a screwdriver outside and grab it or burn skin if you kneel on asphalt (which is often melted at that point).  My Mustang and about 6 tri-5 Chebbies from 400-600 hp, and a bunch of 385 series builds in Vegas will idle happily in traffic that way.  Now truth be told, we did a 600-ish HP 55 Chevy, and it used dual Spals and a huge radiator (in fact almost exactly your combo except we ran a restrictor not a thermostat back then) and did fine, but we also had to push the radiator forward and build a custom support to fit something like you designed

Last comment, as you pointed out, I agree COMPLETELY that the only non-OEM fan I think could be worth anything using their advertised ratings would be a properly sized Spal, but even then, as you point out it really needs to be a system, not just slipping a fan on the front of the radiator.  All the other aftermarket versions are over-rated and I haven't found an electric fan worth a shit that works on a 24 inch Mustang radiator and gives room for the water pump

Sorry for the long winded response, but remember, 40 bucks and 4 bolts over most flex fan  Certainly other ways to fix it, and other ways to save HP, but I have found it to be a valid fix if someone wants to make a change, especially on a budget or timeline
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 10:07:33 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

cjshaker

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2018, 10:56:51 AM »
Sorry, Ross, but unless you have an insane pitch on a severely overdriven fan, a good electric will beat a mechanical fan at idle or low speed every time. I don't even have, and haven't found the need for, an electric fan on any of my vehicles, but facts can't be denied. Forgetting about the horsepower requirements, low speed and idle are where good electrics shine.
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe

AlanCasida

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2018, 11:43:38 AM »
The problem I run into is the radiator I have with two 1 1/2" cores it is too thick to put any major cfm fans in it and not come in contact with the water pump pulley. I already have a flexlite fan on it although it is a stainless flex fan. Right now my best option both time and money-wise would be to try a pusher fan and maybe a rigid flex-lite fan. To put a 31" radiator in my car would require some fairly major surgery under the hood and I just don't have time for that. This weekend is dedicated to getting my trailer ready. I have the weekend to decide what I want to get(thank goodness for overnight air!) It just gripes me that the 521 in my Galaxie ran just fine with a stock OEM 68 Galaxie radiator that is actually smaller than one in my Mustang and a stock clutch fan. I know it's a bigger engine compartment but it is all closed in with a stock hood and the Mustang has the shock towers removed and two big holes in the back of the teardrop hood. Maybe that's why I like big cars! 8)  Thanks again, guys.

My427stang

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2018, 02:04:09 PM »
Sorry, Ross, but unless you have an insane pitch on a severely overdriven fan, a good electric will beat a mechanical fan at idle or low speed every time. I don't even have, and haven't found the need for, an electric fan on any of my vehicles, but facts can't be denied. Forgetting about the horsepower requirements, low speed and idle are where good electrics shine.

Doug, we don't have to agree, but I absolutely have never seen that, other maybe fans like the Taurus and Lincolns if you have the room.  I haven't sen any facts about electrics moving more air at idle, especially through a radiator. I can say, that the specific mechanical driven fan you pick makes a significant difference.   Look at diesel pickups, they are all engine driven fans and low rpm

I promise I am not shooting from the hip, I am also not saying you or Jay are wrong in your advice, especially with a big radiator.  I don't need or want to convince you (or Alan for than matter)  to do something you don't want to do, just showing a viable option that I have used many times for people that paid me to fix a problem.  The facts that are near my tool box are that when a car has a creeping temp at idle, if all other stuff is good, often the right fan can make a heck of a difference.

Alan, I will say before you spend money, snap a pic of which fan you have now, as well as see how hard a piece of paper gets pulled against your radiator at idle.  I would also make sure your crank and pulley combo is 1:1 or more (faster fan). 



« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 02:13:40 PM by My427stang »
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

e philpott

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2018, 03:08:23 PM »
X3 on the Spals, my Dual spals stradle each side of the water pump since the fans are not dead center

AlanCasida

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2018, 03:25:20 PM »


Doug, we don't have to agree, but I absolutely have never seen that, other maybe fans like the Taurus and Lincolns if you have the room.  I haven't sen any facts about electrics moving more air at idle, especially through a radiator. I can say, that the specific mechanical driven fan you pick makes a significant difference.   Look at diesel pickups, they are all engine driven fans and low rpm

I promise I am not shooting from the hip, I am also not saying you or Jay are wrong in your advice, especially with a big radiator.  I don't need or want to convince you (or Alan for than matter)  to do something you don't want to do, just showing a viable option that I have used many times for people that paid me to fix a problem.  The facts that are near my tool box are that when a car has a creeping temp at idle, if all other stuff is good, often the right fan can make a heck of a difference.

Alan, I will say before you spend money, snap a pic of which fan you have now, as well as see how hard a piece of paper gets pulled against your radiator at idle.  I would also make sure your crank and pulley combo is 1:1 or more (faster fan).
[/quote]

Here are a few pics. I am using a 16" fan. I think the water pump pulley is a little bigger than the crank pulley but I have already ordered a bigger crank pulley to speed it up. I think I will also get a shorter fan spacer. I like to have the blades stick about halfway out the shroud but I didn't like the sharp edges of those stainless blades!

jayb

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2018, 03:40:25 PM »
Ross, just an FYI, my 69 Mach has the shock towers, had an Edelbrock mechanical water pump (needed the bosses to attach the supercharger bracket), and the hood scoop was sealed, no way for air to exit there.  Still cooled beautifully.  On that car I put the biggest electric fan I could fit on the right side, next to the water pump, and another 12" fan as a pusher on the left side (because there was no way to fit a puller with the supercharger in place).  I ran the water pump bypass and a 180 thermostat on that car, and never overheated.  And as far as going south, Drag Week has taken me to Bowling Green Kentucky several times, and to Steele Alabama and Montgomery Alabama one year, again with no overheating problems in 100+ temperatures (the track at Montgomery was brutally hot LOL!).

I'm glad that your setup has worked for you, but I'll maintain that you are giving away power that you don't need to.  Also, do you really think that at speed, the fan takes any less power to run?  What you are basically saying there is that the wind through the radiator generates 10+ HP at the fan pulley, to counteract the power the engine requires to turn the fan at speed.  I'd be surprised if that wind assist is even 1 HP.  Pretty sure there are back to back track tests online somewhere that show the power losses from a fixed fan.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

My427stang

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2018, 09:02:51 PM »
Ross, just an FYI, my 69 Mach has the shock towers, had an Edelbrock mechanical water pump (needed the bosses to attach the supercharger bracket), and the hood scoop was sealed, no way for air to exit there.  Still cooled beautifully.  On that car I put the biggest electric fan I could fit on the right side, next to the water pump, and another 12" fan as a pusher on the left side (because there was no way to fit a puller with the supercharger in place).  I ran the water pump bypass and a 180 thermostat on that car, and never overheated.  And as far as going south, Drag Week has taken me to Bowling Green Kentucky several times, and to Steele Alabama and Montgomery Alabama one year, again with no overheating problems in 100+ temperatures (the track at Montgomery was brutally hot LOL!).

I'm glad that your setup has worked for you, but I'll maintain that you are giving away power that you don't need to.  Also, do you really think that at speed, the fan takes any less power to run?  What you are basically saying there is that the wind through the radiator generates 10+ HP at the fan pulley, to counteract the power the engine requires to turn the fan at speed.  I'd be surprised if that wind assist is even 1 HP.  Pretty sure there are back to back track tests online somewhere that show the power losses from a fixed fan.

Jay, I have sweat at that track in Montgomery, you ain't kidding!  I am impressed with your Mach, mine tends to behave real well too with almost the identical cooling system setup except a 195 degree thermostat because the EFI likes it.  It was not like that with the iron headed 433 though, it wasn't bad, but when you were sitting around in traffic, it'd get your attention.  Nowadays, I like my gauge cross-check to be entirely uneventful.

Just to be clear, that is not what I run on mine anymore, I run a clutch fan, and then two dedicated electrics, it sounds like I am talking out both sides of my mouth, but I spaced my a/c condenser so far forward that the electric fans only pull air through the condenser to keep head pressure under control with R134. 

The clutch fan pulls around the condenser and I did it that way to ensure it had clean cool air at low speeds.  The electronic fans also are on a thermostatic switch and never come on without the a/c trigger, except maybe for the odd 90+ degree day after I walk away from it and it heat soaks in the parking lot. I also have A/C and PS, so not a ton of room there either for electric fans and this works really well.  I also run a stock alternator

I did use the fixed fan in Vegas, and in Virginia and Alabama the 433 was much easier.  I added the hood scoop on mine and still like it very much, but the others I referenced were all very well done stock style systems in Vegas that didn't want that expense on the street, and problem children in the other two areas were vehicles that people looked for help after locals had issues. 

BTW, yes, absolutely I would think that there would be some power in a smart electric fan setup, especially if you shut them and the alternator off during WOT, which I might experiment with if going that route.  I won't argue that ever, in fact, with a WOT cutoff, it could be much more than 10 hp.  However, again, I would just like to point out that relatively simple as it is to build a relayed circuit with a thermostatic switch powering a big set of fans, it's still pretty expensive compared to a engine driven fan if the problem you are trying to fix is just idle temp

I know aerodynamics pretty well, and know a wide range of high electric current demand systems are powered in flight by airflow in many of our weapons systems at much higher speeds but also they drive an incredible amperage demand.  However, I do not know how much the radiator diffuses that airflow (likely a lot), what the exit speed at the foil (fan blade) is at say 3000 rpm and how it compares to air flow supply at street or track speeds, and how those forces together change the fan's authority.  I really would love to see it if you find some track testing, I will look too, but my point is 10 hp in some environment is likely single digit at others. 

Then each person has to weigh the benefit. Upgraded alternator, wiring to support that alternator, electric fan cost, when that 10 hp matters, as in your case, I say go for it, but lots of guys don't want that expense if they can cool things down.  (Boy, if Alan tries that fan it'd better work huh? LOL)

I promise I am not saying you guys are wrong, I am just arguing that I don't think I am either :) and if I was in a thrash, I'd be looking to try easy and cheap before slightly more complicated and expensive.

However, if I had a supercharged big-inch drag car and trying to actually win rounds, I'd be likely yelling bravo to a nice wide radiator and a good set of Spals, especially if I had to go rounds.  I will also admit, although I am blessed with a pretty good disposable income for the toys, I do realize my Scrooge is showing for 10 hp :)


 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 09:22:11 PM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

My427stang

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2018, 09:19:39 PM »

Here are a few pics. I am using a 16" fan. I think the water pump pulley is a little bigger than the crank pulley but I have already ordered a bigger crank pulley to speed it up. I think I will also get a shorter fan spacer. I like to have the blades stick about halfway out the shroud but I didn't like the sharp edges of those stainless blades!

Alan, I would expect that fan to be moving a lot of air, however, as the throttle moves, they do tend to flatten out and those do tend to howl a lot.  Regardless, my guess is you will be happy with the pulley change alone.  In fact Stewart water pumps recommends overdriven on a street strip vehicle.

"Race applications require a maximum water pump speed of 7000 RPM. Street applications, the water pump speed must at least match crankshaft RPM, to a maximum recommended 25% faster than crankshaft speed."


I am not sure how high you spin yours, but my guess is 1:1 won't be 7000 rpm shaft speed, so let it rip.  Second benefit of more pump pressure is to control localized hot spots as the flow is forced harder into the block and while being held back by the thermostat.
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

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Re: My cooling issue has been solve-ed...sort of.
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2018, 03:24:18 AM »
I have been a fan (sorry...) of the Spal products and have been recommending them for several years.  Went from a single large Flexolite to a pair of much smaller Spal units with one on a manual switch and the other on a temperature switch.  Went from an in traffic heat up behavior to the second fan almost never coming on.  The Spal units each require their own relay - they pull a lot higher amp load.  Should have been an immediate clue - more amp draw means more work is being done.