Author Topic: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012  (Read 30921 times)

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jayb

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September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« on: September 08, 2012, 08:47:59 PM »
The last 48 hours is just a blur.  Wednesday evening it had seemed that things just screamed along, but Thursday evening things went a lot slower; the jobs seemed to take longer, and we ran into various problems.  By the end of the night Thursday, we had the Shelby clone ready to fire but had not yet started it up.  Four or five of us worked until about 11:00 PM; here's a photo of the pizza break we took around 8:00:



Friday afternoon around 5:30 I got home from work to start the final work on getting the cars ready for the event.  Steve S had been there earlier in the day, painting the flat black on the Mach 1 fiberglass hood scoop; it was drying upstairs in the paint booth.  When I got there he had already left, and was sheeting the second Drag Week trailer with aluminum (I can't recall mentioning this before, but of course with two cars we needed two trailers.  I have an old model airplane trailer that needed a revamp, and Joel and Steve had been working on this on and off for a while).  Steve had called just before I got home and was going to bring the trailer over so that someone else could finish sheeting it while he finished up with the hood.  BradFORD had been able to leave work early and was at the shop with the Mach 1 gears and driveshaft installed. I'd been at the DMV over my lunch hour, picking up license tabs for the Mach 1, which I had neglected to do earlier in the week.   Steve P was also there when I arrived, finishing the air cleaner tops for the Mach 1, and ready to jump on the trailer work when Steve S arrived with it. 

I quickly changed clothes and got to work.  I wanted to get the four link mount extensions welded into place under the car, so that the front of the bottom four link bar on each side could be lowered a couple inches for better suspension geometry.  Joel had previously machined the pieces that were needed, and I was going to TIG weld them in place.  Unfortunately, space was pretty limited under the car, and it took me an hour just to get the first side done.  Steve had arrived by then and he is a much better welder than I am, so I asked him if he could do the second set on the driver's side.  He was at a stopping point with the paint work so he agreed.  I pitched in with some last minute items on the Mach 1, while BradFORD and Steve P were out in the driveway working on the trailer.  Here's a picture of the trailer in the driveway:



With Steve under the Shelby clone doing the welding I started to get the efi system set up, checking all the software parameters and making sure that the efi system was seeing inputs like the throttle position sensors and temperature sensors.  I started with the same program I ran at Drag Week last year, and made some minor modifications based on the position of the crank sensor and the throttle position sensor readings, but pretty quickly this was ready to go.  Joel had arrived by then and was helping with the Mach 1; the hood was on, and the air cleaners were in place.  Here's a couple of photos of the front of the car at this point:





Steve had also modified a hood scoop for the Shelby clone, and painted and installed it on the hood.  It looked really cool, sitting in the shop waiting for installation on the car:



Finally after another hour Steve climbed out from under the Shelby clone and the suspension work was now done.  We put the exhaust system and the rear tires on the car in preparation for firing it.  But first we decided to fire up the Mach 1.  I had previously adjusted the idle to a minimum level, and wanted to set it up some so that the car would stay running when the transmission went into gear.  We also needed to break in the new rear end gears.  With the car up in the air a little on the hoist, I fired it and warmed it up.  It was already 10:00 PM, but hearing the car start easily and run well gave me a boost of confidence.  After it was warmed I set the idle in park up to around 1100 RPM, and tested it by putting the car in gear with the brakes on.  The idle dropped to about 900 RPM, and stayed for quite a while.  No problems with the idle anymore, that's for sure.  Next I released the brake and let the rear end spin for five minutes in first gear, then five in second, and five in third, and finally in overdrive.  No surprises, and everything seemed to be fine with the car.  I shut it off and went over to work on the Shelby clone, while the other guys dropped the Mach 1 down to get it ready for a test drive.  First thing they did was install the shaker hood scoop that Steve had fabricated, and after they did that I added the Cobra Jet script to the side of the scoop.  It looked awesome:



At about 11:00 PM, just as I was starting to get ready to fire the Shelby clone, everything went straight to hell.  On the Shelby clone, I had not yet filled the engine with water.  I had wanted to wait in case there was any seeping in the copper head gaskets, so that I could add some ceramic sealer to the cooling system if necessary once the engine was fired.  So, now I added the water.  I didn't even get the first gallon in before water started dripping on the floor.  It was coming from the weep hole in the water pump.  This is a converted Edelbrock pump that I got many years ago, and had run fine on the engine last summer.  Apparently between now and then it had decided to lose the seal, and the water I had put into the engine was rapidly dripping out onto the floor.  This wasn't a showstopper, but it was sure going to take me at least an hour to change to a different water pump.  While I was deciding how best to proceed, the next crisis erupted.  The Mach 1 was on the floor, and it was in park, but it was rolling backwards, with a loud crack each time the parking pawl in the transmission went by a tooth.  It occurred to me for the first time that locking the rear end up at the track last weekend may have also damaged the transmission.  I went over to the Mach 1 to help out.  We got the car back up on the lift, and with the transmission in park we were able to turn the rear wheels by hand, watch the driveshaft spin, and hear this loud clanking sound from the transmission.  It did not sound good.  We all conferenced together on this, and we all agreed that with this behavior it would be very risky to take the Mach 1 on the event.  No firm decision was reached, but nobody was feeling very good about it.

We decided to concentrate for a while on the Shelby clone.  I wanted to get the engine fired up without water in it, just to make sure that the engine would start and run properly before I started working on replacing the water pump.  Last year I had run this same efi setup, and had had a lot of trouble starting the car with it.  The problem seemed to be the efi box reading the crankshaft sensor.  The box has some LEDs that indicate when the injectors are firing and the coils are working, and they should flash when the engine is cranking.  Last year the flashing of these LEDs was intermittent when I was starting the car, and it would start hard, sometimes popping and backfiring, and would often not start at all.  Over the winter Scott Clark figured out that this may have had to do with the "crank to run" setting in the software.  This is an RPM parameter that tells the ems-pro when the engine has started, so that it can begin providing different fuel and timing parameters.  Mine was set to 300 RPM which was pretty standard; cranking RPM is about 100.  Scott had learned that sometimes noise on the input signal from the crank sensor could cause the ems-pro to momentarily see 300 RPM even when the engine was still cranking; then the fuel and timing would no longer be right, and the engine wouldn't start.  At least that was the theory.  One of the things I had done in the software earlier was to set the crank to run RPM up from 300 to 700 to avoid this problem.  Unfortunately, when I tried to start the engine on Friday night it went right back to the same old behavior; intermittent RPM signals from the ems-pro, and the engine refused to start.  After working on this for 15 minutes or so, we decided to try to put fuel down the injector tubes.  When we did this the engine would start for a moment, but it did not run smoothly; it was certainly still getting intermittent signals to fire the coils because it was not reading the crank sensor.  On this particular installation BradFORD had put some short pigtails on the wires for the crank sensor so that we could monitor the signals from the crank sensor.  After experimenting for a while with the fuel, I got my oscilloscope out and hooked it up to the crank sensor wires.  When I cranked the engine I had a beautiful square wave output from the sensor; the ems-pro was just not reading it for some reason.

We continued to work on this problem for well over an hour.  By 1:00 AM Saturday morning, we had exhausted all the options that I could think of for starting the engine.  Steve had  pulled the water pump off the Galaxie, and it was ready for installation on the Shelby clone, but what was the point if the engine wouldn't run?  With the Mach 1 showing a transmission problem, and the Shelby clone not able to start, we all agreed that leaving for Drag Week at 9:00 AM the next morning was an impossibility.  Everyone was exhausted from the previous 2-3 weeks of work to get the cars ready, and we basically threw in the towel on the event right there.  The guys headed for home, and I went to bed without setting my alarm clock.

This morning (Saturday) I slept late and didn't get out to the garage until around 9:30.  First thing I did was give Scott Clark a call, and he gave me a whole bunch more things to try on the Shelby clone to try to get it running.  I tried different software settings, adjusting some potentiometers on the ems-pro board, switching to the VR sensor input circuit, etc.  I went back and forth with Scott on the phone a half dozen times, but could not get the engine to fire.  Scott is going to make a trip up here next weekend to try to help debug this thing, because he is as confused and frustrated as I am with it.  Once the car starts, it runs just fine, but the starting issues are a killer, and with a new engine that has not been tuned on the dyno, starting the engine was the roadblock that kept me from making it to Drag Week with the car.

Around noon I called the local guy who did the C-4 in the Mach 1, and explained the problem.  Suddenly there was hope again; he thought that the problem was minor, and that I could probably live with it.  He said just bring a block to put in front of the tire when you park the car LOL!  At that point I was thinking that we could make a run with the Mach 1 to KC by midnight if we left by 5:00 PM, and then get an early start to Tulsa Sunday morning, and make it to the track for Drag Week registration on Sunday (registration ends at 2:00 PM Sunday; if you are not there by then, you do not get to participate in the event).  I called the other guys and told them about this new turn of events.  Not surprisingly, BradFORD and Steve had already made other plans.  So had Joel, but he wasn't real firm on them yet, and it sounded like he could go.  I also called Steve P and Kevin, who was planning to bring his Lincoln, and they were both up for the trip down,  so it looked like getting the Mach 1 to the event was a go.  However, I had not yet driven the car on the street, and I wanted to do a test drive after the transmission scare just to make sure everything was OK.  Also, my transmission guy was concerned about the fluid in the transmission.  I was using Mercon 5, which I guess is a semi-synthetic fluid, on the recommendation of some other people I know who run C-4s.  My transmission guy said that the Mercon 5 fluid was too slippery and would inhibit the workings of the bands and clutches in the C-4; he thought it might be OK on a lower horsepower motor, but on mine he was very concerned that it would cause slippage and wear out parts quickly.  He had recommended draining it and looking inside the pan to be safe. 

Back up on the lift went the Mach 1.  The pan didn't show any evidence of carnage; no chunks or excessive wear material in the bottom.  I didn't have any type FA fluid on hand, so I ran off to NAPA to pick some up, then re-installed the pan on the Mach 1 and filled it with fluid.  By this time it was 1:30.  I dropped the car off the hoist and tried to start it and - what?  The electric fuel pump was not working.  After checking some fuses I opened the trunk and wiggled the wires connected to the Aeromotive fuel pump controller, and the pump would turn on and off when I did so.  But it would not stay running.  Great, back to the donor car (Galaxie), where I took its Aeromotive fuel pump controller and installed it in the Mach 1.  The Galaxie had the newer style, and it took me a while to make the conversion on the Mach1.  When I did, the fuel pump controller worked, but the pump override didn't work.  It was working on the Galaxie, but not on the Mach 1.  I need the pump override to start the car, because when cranking the pump controller doesn't deliver full pressure.  The override is a simple circuit to wire; you just have to ground one terminal on the Aeromotive unit and the fuel pump should come on.  The switch on the Mach 1's console didn't work, and I tried to jumper a ground wire to the terminal on the fuel pump controller in the trunk, but that didn't work either.  This car sure seemed to be trying to tell me something.  Finally I just directly wired the fuel pump to the battery, so that when I pulled the main battery switch the fuel pump came on.  Exasperated, I started the car, and took it out on the road for a test drive.

The first 1-2 shift told the story.  There was a big flare between first and second; not a nice crisp shift like it should be.  I went for about a five mile ride, trying the shift pattern multiple times, but it was always the same.  No way this car was going to go down the drag strip.  I don't know whether this was damage caused by the rear end locking up last weekend, or something else; my transmission guy thought that at the track last weekend we probably burned up the second gear band, because the Mercon 5 fluid was too slippery to let it grab the drum, and so the lining burned off the band.  There is some evidence to support this theory; last Saturday on his last pass, Joel hit the rev limiter on the 1-2 shift, and he swears he shifted the instant that the shift light came on.  BradFORD thought he heard a flare in the engine too.  I don't know what happened, but I do know that the transmission needs to be gone through at this point.  So that was that; I gave up all hope of making Drag Week at about 3:00 PM today.  The Mach 1 sat in the driveway  :(



Despite not making the event, the amount of work that got done on the two cars and trailer over the last few weeks is awesome.  My friends came together and we really worked like a solid team to get as far as we did.  This was in spite of the various problems that cropped up along the way, causing delay after delay.  Late pistons, porous cylinder heads, broken rear end gears, a broken motor in the Galaxie, and many other problems combined to steal the time I needed to get the cars ready for the event.  I'm making plans already to fix the problems that we've identified.  I'm ready to throw the ems-pro in the trash, and go with the Megasquirt MS3X like the one I now have in the Mach 1.  That thing has been super-reliable, and the Mach 1 starts every time.  The Peterson pump on the high riser is also a problem spot, continually dragging oil out of the motor despite the presence of baffles in the valve covers.  Plus it doesn't pull the vacuum level I want.  I may go back to a stock type oil pump and an external vacuum pump to resolve those problems.  Also I really don't want to run the Hilborn setup on the Shelby clone, so I may replace it with the sheet metal intake I made last year.  That intake would work perfectly with the hood scoop that Steve made for the Shelby clone.  Lots more stuff to think about, too...

I hope the guys who make it to Drag Week this year have a great time, and I sure wish I'd been able to go there with them.  I'm going to spend some of my time over the next year ironing out the bugs in the cars that I've got, and maybe next year I'll make it to the event.  My friends deserve my best effort on this, after all the work they've put in on the cars this year, and I sure hope next year we make it!
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jmlay

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 09:27:42 PM »
I am very sorry to hear this. Very unfortunate after all of the work your crew has put in. Look at it this way... You will be ready for next year early!!!
Mike

kevin

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 09:38:05 PM »
DAM sorry to read that JAY,was so looking forward to reading about some good numbers form the different strips.on the ecu front have a look here
www.linkecu.co.nz.
Kevin.

Cyclone03

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 09:39:35 PM »
Wow Jay what a month.
I was hopeing to meet you in Dallas this year.
I've been rooting for you all the way.

All three cars are awsome on their own but to have all of them at one events would have been cool.
The HR is just a killer piece.

I'm sorry it all went to hell,then got worse... but now you have time to run all the engines on the dyno and get them set up and de-bugged,fix transmissions,wireing,modify fuel pumps....

I'm sure #1 is close the shop door for a while and take the wife out for a night on the town, or 30.


Thank you Jay for taking us on the ride!


BTW sell the article to Hot Rod,it's a great story!
Lance H

Kerry j

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 09:45:22 PM »
+1 on sell the story to Hot Rod! You and your crew are too kewl for words; I'm in awe of what you've accomplished!

And another +1 to give yourself a little break and start getting ready for next year; you would rule; no question about it!

dieselgeek

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 10:45:09 PM »
What a bummer.

If you're free I'm coming up there to figure out what's going on with your starting issues in the Shelby.  I've never seen TWO bad EMS-pros but it's possible I guess?  (Jay has a spare that also won't work).  Meanwhile, both EMS's did work when the engine was last dyno'd, yes?  I am wondering if there's a flaw in the EMS-pro wiring harness in the car.  The EMS just isn't getting the same signal seen down at the sensor with an oscilloscope...


afret

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 10:58:14 PM »
Boy, that really sucks after all the hard work you guys did getting three cars ready.  At least you'll have plenty of time to test and tune the cars for next year.

KMcCullah

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2012, 11:06:06 PM »
I'm all for a electronically tricked out FE but I keep going back to Joe Craine's statement about the Dominators. They could have saved a bunch of time. But enough to have made Drag Week? Who knows. I'm really bummed about this though Jay. You and your team will have to wait a year for the pay off now.  :(
Kevin McCullah


ToddK

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 12:32:02 AM »
Jay and helpers, my hat goes off to you all. The effort you guys have put in over the last few weeks is incredible, what a shame to make it so close. At least now you have an early start on getting the 3 car team ready for DW2013.

fetorino

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 12:36:55 AM »
Fielding one car at drag week in addition to a full time job is ambitious.  Attempting to field three cars at Drag week in addition to everything else you do is beyond ambitious.

You are trying to do something like summit Everest without oxygen.  It's not that it isn't possible; it's just that everything in the environment around you has to go just right for you to make it, and you could die attempting it.

Take some time to recharge your batteries before you get back at it.  I know you didn't accomplish what you had set out to but what you did accomplish is IMPRESSIVE.

dowds

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 03:56:00 AM »
What a bummer for you guys, maybee you can get your problems soughted on the cars and get some track time before your weather changes, iam sure those cars will give you guys some serious fun, oh yeah and some video for us, hard luck for you guys.

Wayne (oz)

machoneman

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 08:43:23 AM »
Sorry to hear that news, indeed! You did have a heck of a crew helping.

Hope you can keep after both cars right away while the weather is good and the tracks are open. Tuning and tweaking now, as you know, will pay big dividends later.
Bob Maag

jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »
Thanks for the kind words, guys, I appreciate it.  I do plan to get both cars to the track yet this fall, and will report on the results when I do.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

Royce

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 09:37:02 AM »
Jay, you have established a new standard for the racer "Last Minute Thrash".

What an effort and kudos to your team for matching your passion to get this done...

I hope you can get both cars on the track yet this year to get a measure of satisfaction from all the effort you put forth
1955 Thunderbird Competition Coupe Altered Chassis "War Bird" 383 Lincoln Y block 520 hp
1955 Thunderbird 292 275 hp Y Block
1956 Ford Victoria 292 Y block

1957 Mercury 2dr Wagon "Battle Wagon" drag car 
1957 Thunderbird Glass body Tube Chassis drag car 333 cu in 500 hp Ford Y block
1961 Starliner 390/375 clone
1965 GT40 tribute w/FE
1966 Falcon Pro Touring project
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jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2012, 09:41:52 AM »
What a bummer.

If you're free I'm coming up there to figure out what's going on with your starting issues in the Shelby.  I've never seen TWO bad EMS-pros but it's possible I guess?  (Jay has a spare that also won't work).  Meanwhile, both EMS's did work when the engine was last dyno'd, yes?  I am wondering if there's a flaw in the EMS-pro wiring harness in the car.  The EMS just isn't getting the same signal seen down at the sensor with an oscilloscope...

Scott, I am free and would love to have you come up for the weekend to help figure out what is going on.  I would be the first one to point a finger at the wiring harness in the car, except that it hasn't changed from last year, and the car went down the track twice and also went down the road with this harness.  Is it possible that there is a flaw in the wiring harness that could affect only the starting?  Maybe its noisy, and that makes the car harder to start?

At the time I ran the engine on the dyno (last summer), I only had the one ems-pro.  It did give me some issues, but on the dyno I was able to crank up the battery voltage by turning the battery charger on boost.  This spun the engine faster and it seemed to start better like that; maybe it was just higher battery voltage?  FYI after our calls yesterday I did check the voltage on the Tuner Studio dashboard during cranking, and it was about 11.5 volts with the starter spinning.  That should be plenty of voltage based on our previous conversations.

Color me pretty confused on this one...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 09:53:16 AM »
I'm all for a electronically tricked out FE but I keep going back to Joe Craine's statement about the Dominators. They could have saved a bunch of time. But enough to have made Drag Week? Who knows. I'm really bummed about this though Jay. You and your team will have to wait a year for the pay off now.  :(

There are several issues with the dominators that make them much less practical than EFI for a street car.  First, they are pretty tall compared to efi throttle bodies and would stick even farther out of the hood.  Most importantly, though, with the big cams in these cars the dominators are not really tunable down at the lower engine speeds.  I can't imagine driving around in traffic with those cams and a pair of dominator carbs; they just wouldn't allow a low enough idle speed, throttle response would be non-existent, etc.  When I ran the Mach 1 at Drag Week in 2005, the cam was much milder (266@.050"), and it was a challenge to keep the car running with a single dominator on the Victor intake.  Two carbs would be worse.  EFI makes things so much easier in that respect.  Not that it couldn't be done, but with the night and day difference between EFI and carbs on these engines, I have no desire to go back to carbs.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

cammerfe

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2012, 05:16:14 PM »
Jay---

If this stuff was easy, everybody would be doing it. You are a STAR!!!

You have a giant start on next year. And just on the off chance that you haven't realized it, you are the pinnacle!

It's a pleasure to know you and read your journal.

KS

machoneman

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2012, 05:39:04 PM »
2x to that Ken. A Ford star with blue blood.......for sure.
Bob Maag

ToddK

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2012, 05:40:38 PM »
Jay, with respect to the starting issues on the Shelby, have you considered using a 16V battery? Use the full 16V for staring and then step down to 12V for normal running? Just thinking out aloud.

bluef100fe

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »
What a bummer jay... hope you get your cars lined out yet this fall really curious how the highriser performs on the track after the bugs are worked out good luck


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Cody Ladowski
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57yblock

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2012, 08:25:35 PM »

Hi Jay I do tend to agree with you about efi being a much more practical deal for street use, but as far as dominators drivability I use mine as an example. Being it and my brothers are the only 2 I have ever driven. I think it really ain't that bad as low speed driving and idle are pretty darn good. It used to kind of have a rought idle and mine ie a very old carb. I think it was Josh Knudsen who runs a BBF fox chassi mustang that told me to try drilling out the air bleeds on the top of the carb. (mine is to old for the removable ones) I did that just as an experiment as I am no carb guru and I can get a real decent 900 rpm idle now and as far as throttle responce on the street its not an issue as flooring it just lights up the tires. The reason I tried the carb mod was because some of the more expensize cars that I encountered over at grove creek idled much better than mine. I
 it would have been much cheaper too and quicker. On another note I sure am sorry to hrear that you guys aren't going to make it as it would have been the high point of my day to read the days results . It don't take much to make us old guys happyLOL.



I'm all for a electronically tricked out FE but I keep going back to Joe Craine's statement about the Dominators. They could have saved a bunch of time. But enough to have made Drag Week? Who knows. I'm really bummed about this though Jay. You and your team will have to wait a year for the pay off now.  :(

There are several issues with the dominators that make them much less practical than EFI for a street car.  First, they are pretty tall compared to efi throttle bodies and would stick even farther out of the hood.  Most importantly, though, with the big cams in these cars the dominators are not really tunable down at the lower engine speeds.  I can't imagine driving around in traffic with those cams and a pair of dominator carbs; they just wouldn't allow a low enough idle speed, throttle response would be non-existent, etc.  When I ran the Mach 1 at Drag Week in 2005, the cam was much milder (266@.050"), and it was a challenge to keep the car running with a single dominator on the Victor intake.  Two carbs would be worse.  EFI makes things so much easier in that respect.  Not that it couldn't be done, but with the night and day difference between EFI and carbs on these engines, I have no desire to go back to carbs.

BigNate

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2012, 11:29:58 PM »
Sorry to hear it Jay...  I was looking forward to reading your reports on the event.  As you said earlier - I guess it is good that you guys were able to make some good progress on the cars...
Arrrrg.... LOL  My sig line everywhere else is somewhat political... Will that get me kicked?

ScotiaFE

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2012, 05:52:25 AM »
That`s a shame for you and your crew. Get'em next year.
Love the CJ Scoop.

dieselgeek

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 09:12:28 AM »
What a bummer.

If you're free I'm coming up there to figure out what's going on with your starting issues in the Shelby.  I've never seen TWO bad EMS-pros but it's possible I guess?  (Jay has a spare that also won't work).  Meanwhile, both EMS's did work when the engine was last dyno'd, yes?  I am wondering if there's a flaw in the EMS-pro wiring harness in the car.  The EMS just isn't getting the same signal seen down at the sensor with an oscilloscope...

Scott, I am free and would love to have you come up for the weekend to help figure out what is going on.  I would be the first one to point a finger at the wiring harness in the car, except that it hasn't changed from last year, and the car went down the track twice and also went down the road with this harness.  Is it possible that there is a flaw in the wiring harness that could affect only the starting?  Maybe its noisy, and that makes the car harder to start?

At the time I ran the engine on the dyno (last summer), I only had the one ems-pro.  It did give me some issues, but on the dyno I was able to crank up the battery voltage by turning the battery charger on boost.  This spun the engine faster and it seemed to start better like that; maybe it was just higher battery voltage?  FYI after our calls yesterday I did check the voltage on the Tuner Studio dashboard during cranking, and it was about 11.5 volts with the starter spinning.  That should be plenty of voltage based on our previous conversations.

Color me pretty confused on this one...

Check my email, my schedule this weekend just blew up thanks to the EMC / early Hemi guys deciding to.

But, I did do some testing late last night with an EDIS wheel and two different sensors on an EMS-pro I have here at home.  I was able to log cranking RPM down to 35-40RPM with both a Hamlin and Cherry sensor (hall sensors, Cherry required a pullup), and using a Ford VR sensor I was able to get it down around 65rpm steady cranking, with the EMS-pro identifying cranking RPM without switching to Run mode.  I use a variable speed Ryobi drill press to control RPM.   This EMS has your specific modifications to the tach inputs, but it's got a dead injector driver (it was a warranty swap for a guy who miswired his fuel injectors).  I don't think the dead driver portion of the board improves or hurts the tach input performance.

We've done similar testing with Huber and Bill Fowler in the past all with good results.   There is something in your combo that I am missing / haven't figured out.  But I will!  There are way too many people using the exact same combination not having the same problem for it to be something other than software config or hardware.  I can send you some of those guys' tunes if you want to load them and try them out?  just to see if you get cranking RPMs.

-Scott

Randy

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 11:42:41 AM »
That sucks jay I enjoy ready your adventures but I like them more when your cars are running better and your having a good time racing, I hope it goes a lot better for you next year.

cdmbill2

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2012, 04:04:40 PM »
Jay, Scott C. told us that you guys had to pull the plug when arrived in Tulsa. Like everyone here we had followed your epic goal and thrash and hoped to see you all roll into Tulsa and give it hell. And, like everyone we were totally bummed.

This year's DW was a mother, especially the 380 mile first drive "punch in the mouth" as it was described through the mountains and goat paths of Eastern Oklahoma. I'm still feeling sleep deprived almost a week after getting back. We did our best to carry the Ford banner in your absence.

I look forward to hearing what you've planned next.

Bill


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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2012, 07:28:52 PM »
What a great read. It's too bad you didn't make it this year, but it should be a lot easier next year with all the work you 've already put in.

thatdarncat

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2012, 10:51:23 PM »
What a great read. It's too bad you didn't make it this year, but it should be a lot easier next year with all the work you 've already put in.

One would think so, problem is Jay keeps raising the bar each year LOL.
Kevin Rolph

1967 Cougar Drag Car ( under constuction )
1966 7 litre Galaxie
1966 Country Squire 390
1966 Cyclone GT 390
1968 Torino GT 390
1972 Gran Torino wagon
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jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 11:54:31 AM »
What a great read. It's too bad you didn't make it this year, but it should be a lot easier next year with all the work you 've already put in.

One would think so, problem is Jay keeps raising the bar each year LOL.

Yes, unfortunately that is one of my serious personality defects  ;D
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

65er

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2012, 09:05:28 AM »
Hey Jay,  You're still working on these aren't you?  Making any progress?  I think it would be super cool if you got everything together at a casual pace and enjoyed the hell out of the cars driving the piss (and bugs) out of them for the next 11 months or so.  Drag week rolls around next year with no thrashing, you're nice and familiar with the cars and their habits and you can head out like it's just another weekday.  Except for the trailers of course.
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

Cyclone03

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2012, 06:03:46 PM »
Jay although it's just bench racing...
How do you feel your 3 packages would have faired ET/Power wise to what you have seen of Drag Week results?

Will we see a seperate "Heres What Happened to...." thread?
Still waiting for the why you have CPS problems in car and not on the dyno.
Thanks
Lance
Lance H

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2012, 06:56:32 PM »
Hey Jay,  You're still working on these aren't you?  Making any progress?  I think it would be super cool if you got everything together at a casual pace and enjoyed the hell out of the cars driving the piss (and bugs) out of them for the next 11 months or so.  Drag week rolls around next year with no thrashing, you're nice and familiar with the cars and their habits and you can head out like it's just another weekday.  Except for the trailers of course.

I've actually been sidetracked onto my new CNC machine since a week after Drag Week, working on transferring the program for my SOHC inspection covers to my new machine, and also making a prototype of the FE intake adapter using some bar stock to test the fit.  The cars have been sitting...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2012, 07:18:16 PM »
Jay although it's just bench racing...
How do you feel your 3 packages would have faired ET/Power wise to what you have seen of Drag Week results?

Will we see a seperate "Heres What Happened to...." thread?
Still waiting for the why you have CPS problems in car and not on the dyno.
Thanks
Lance

Well, can't take away anything from the Drag Week winners, of course, because they made it there, and I didn't.  But my Shelby clone should be good for 9.00 to 9.20, and the winner in that class (Modified NA) averaged 10 flat.  In BB/NA, I think it would have been a real close race between the Mach 1 and CDMBill's Mustang.  The Mach 1 ran 6.35 in the eighth with a pretty lousy 60 foot time just before the event, so I'm thinking it would have been in the 9.80 to 9.90 range in the quarter, which was just about where Bill was.  Due to a quirk in the rules the Galaxie would have had to run in Unlimited, and of course it had no chance there...

On the crank sensor thing I spent the week of Drag Week working that problem really hard, and I've kind of concluded that the ems-pro gave up sometime over the last year.  No matter what I did, it just wouldn't recognize the signal from the crank sensor.  I picked up an MS3X Megasquirt and will re-wire the EFI system so I can use that; I like that setup a lot better than the ems-pro, and had great luck with it on the Mach 1 motor.

I'm waffling over future plans.  The engines are in the cars, but I'm tempted to pull them out and run them both on the dyno.  The 530" high riser got pulled off the dyno before I could try an upgrade on the cam, so I'd like to try that, plus I'd like to build a new intake manifold upper with runners about 15% smaller in cross sectional area and see if that improves the performance.  I'm also thinking about ditching the Peterson pump setup and going back to a stock pump and a vacuum pump for crankcase evacuation.

On the SOHC in the Shelby clone, since I never got the chance to put it on the dyno, I'd kind of like to run it there, and also install the sheet metal intake I built for it last year.  Then I could put the HIlborn setup back on the Galaxie.  Also, my original plan for this engine was to go dry sump, and I have time to do that now, so that would be interesting to do on the dyno as well. 

At present, the idea of pulling the engines back out of the cars, after I've just spent a bunch of time putting them in, is not very appealing.  I'm going to think about all this for a while before I do anything...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

machoneman

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2012, 08:09:09 AM »
Good that you're taking time to carefully think out your next moves as you always seem to do anyway. At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking and answering a question you didn't ask (!).....

If it were my call, I'd run whatca brung as they say now, work out any kinks before the tracks close, do some road driving (purely for enjoyment!) and then yank either or both motors once the cold weather hits for good.  JMO.   
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:46:42 AM by machoneman »
Bob Maag

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2012, 02:43:36 PM »
Sounds like your dyno schedule is empty.  Maybe you can get some help to fill it up.  ;D

65er

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2012, 06:06:53 AM »
Done anything with the drag week cars lately Jay?  I know you've been pretty busy with the intake manifold setup, and that's looking super cool, but maybe you or the crew has a chance to mess with the hotrods a little here and there?
-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

jayb

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2012, 08:23:01 PM »
No, I'm afraid they've been pretty much just sitting.  After all the potholes in my road to Drag Week this year, I was pretty discouraged about the whole thing and just didn't muster the motivation to get the cars repaired to the point where I could race them this fall.  I also began thinking about making some modifications to the engines in both of the Mustangs, including bigger tube headers on the Mach 1, a bigger cam, and maybe another stint on the dyno to try to make 900 horsepower with that one.  Then I also decided I'd like to go back to my original plan with the big SOHC, and put a dry sump system on it.  So, I've got those projects to come this winter, after I get some of the initial work done on the FE intake adapter project.  I'll post information in the member projects section when something starts happening with the cars, but for now they are parked for the long, cold Minnesota winter...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

65er

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2012, 02:12:14 AM »
That's it man!  Hope to see you systematically locate, mark and patch all those potholes over the Winter so they can't slow you down in 2013.  After all the effort you and the crew put into the cars you deserve the fun part of driving the piss out of em.  I say finish em up the way there were going to be for Dragweek 2012 then drive em in the Springtime and do the upgrades as needed or as time permits so you can't get caught short.

 Yeah yea, easy for me to say from behind my computer but that's just my viewpoint and my suggestion.  Of course my car MUST stay on the road.  I need to stick to weekend upgrades or else I don't get to work on Monday.  But on the other hand I get to enjoy my hotrod more than just about anybody.  I bought the Galaxie 26 months and 24,000 miles ago.  I've put four motors in it and getting ready to do that TKO swap in a few weeks.  Then maybe next Summer I'll put in a big stroker motor...  It just keeps getting better!   Maybe I'll be able to take it to Dragweek in about, oh, say five more years... 

Not raggin at ya Jay, just don't want you to lose track of it and really hope to see you get to enjoy all that badass hardware you've put together.



-Wade

458" Blair Partick stroker/TKO 600 .64 OD/3.89 gears

cdmbill2

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Re: September 8, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2013, 09:39:34 AM »
I think it's time for "The Road to Drag Week 2013". We pretty much know its starting at Beech Bend this year and all the track info will be out on the 15th.

What say you Jay?, Joel?