Author Topic: Hilborn EFI  (Read 7534 times)

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Chrisss31

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Hilborn EFI
« on: July 29, 2018, 11:51:19 AM »
Has anyone here tried using the Hilborn EFI?  It's a pretty neat setup based off Jay's intake adapter.

http://hilborninjection.com/product/fe-ford-electronic-fuel-injector/

427LX

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2018, 12:24:48 PM »
Wow....a bit ex$pen$ive!


GJCAT427

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2018, 05:23:06 PM »
Keith, I wonder if that could be adapted to Jay`s TP adapter? Looks like it would be fun.

jayb

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2018, 07:18:43 PM »
If it bolts on to a 351C head, I'm sure it could be made to fit the adapter.  Hilborn's setup is nice because it uses a bigger throttle butterfly than their standard FE injector system, so it will make more power.  fI wonder what the throttle butterfly size is on the Speedmaster setup? 

Hilborn has also been using the 351C setup on my adapter for over a year now and they have all the issues worked out.  At some point, when I get my dyno mule back on the pump, they have promised to lend me one of their systems to see how much power it makes.  I'll bet it will do really, really well...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

fekbmax

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2018, 09:58:14 PM »
I been eyeballing that speedmaster setup for a while. No doubt it dosen't compare to the hiborn performance wise but for us poor boys it would make a cool set up for a street rod.
Keith.  KB MAX Racing.

Heo

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2018, 04:53:53 AM »
Im in the sloooow prosess of building something similar, Im way to cheap
to pay that :D. We have a lot of 4 cyl cars with throttle bodys around 2" plus
in the junkyards. So i have gathered 8 TBs I dont remember now from what
was some Opel or Ford 4 cyl and building a "prototype" out of steel tubes
Perhaps i make some real progress this winter



The defenition of a Gentleman, is a man that can play the accordion.But dont do it

Chrisss31

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2018, 06:25:47 AM »
It's so nice but I just don't get where they came up with the price, it's $2-4K more than the other comparable big name IR setups.  It looks like the nicest one and probably has the most potential, I guess they're running with that?

What are the major differences between the Fast and Holley EFI programs?

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2018, 09:09:30 PM »
something i am working on, inexpensive 60mm mustand TBs:

WConley

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2018, 09:57:30 AM »
something i am working on, inexpensive 60mm mustand TBs:

Joey - Looks cool!  FYI you generally will want to aim your fuel injectors to hit the back of the valve.  Otherwise you'll be wetting the port wall.  That could cause driveability problems as fuel sloshes off unevenly.

That's a neat application of modern components.
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Mistral_427TP

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2018, 10:24:17 AM »
Here's mine; converted from mechanical injection to EFI

-Johnex Cobra Replicar

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2018, 11:31:45 AM »
Quote
Joey - Looks cool!  FYI you generally will want to aim your fuel injectors to hit the back of the valve.  Otherwise you'll be wetting the port wall.  That could cause driveability problems as fuel sloshes off unevenly.

Well, that's kind of what i was going for...... the injector actually points at the valve and long turn or top of the intake port. The conventional orientation has it pointing mostly at the floor of the port ( take a look at the Edelbrock FI intake ). Not sure its better or worse, but there are other manifolds out there with an identical injector layout and they tout that as being a better design..... Who knows till you try right?
I just liked the idea of hiding the rails and injectors under the manifold and mostly out of sight.

The trick will ultimately be either casting that runner in aluminum, or being able to print it directly with a material that is up to the task.
Casting it isn't out of the realm of a  home jobber, its small and there are several methods a guy could try. Printing it would be ideal, but current hobbyist level printers may not be up to the task when it comes to using materials that will last under a hood. Though, there are some really cool fiber reinforced filaments out there....

BTW, that throttle body costs $33.00 on Ebay, shipped. So you can get 8 60mm TBs for $264, delivered. That's about 1/3 to 1/4 the price of most name brand 4150 based "air valves". Still have to sort out the idle control, but that goes for any ITB.

I have another iteration of this  idea in the works, actually a bit more excited about it. It is a similar design, but pairs the runners up side to side, and uses a Coyote (5.0l) ford twin 55 or 60mm TB. You can buy these TB's new from ford for ~$120 and they are DBW, I picked up a brand new take off unit on Ebay for $85. the DBW presents a bit of a control problem, but also gets rid of the linkage headache.  I have the TB on the way, and just ordered a 3D printed version of the runners.
Ill see if i can post some renderings to show the general idea...


Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2018, 01:39:48 PM »
Follow up, in the above renderings, the red throttle body is one I downloaded off of a CAD file web site. It is a larger than stock TB with oversized oval throttle plates. I used it as a rough guide to place the upper openings and mounting holes. When the real unit arrives i will modify the runner.
Pretty sure my bore spacing is close but not perfect.
Also, there are non DBW throttle bodys available that look like the same foot print.

I will try to get some pics of the current single runners and TBs mounted on Jays adapter posted when i get the time. For now i have 2 runners and 1 TB, with another TB in the mail.

Once i am confident that everything "fits" i may try my hand at casting the runners in aluminum. Ill probably start a dedicated thread at that point.
First thing i will try is to do a plaster investment cast using the blue PLA prints pictured above. Don't have high hopes of nailing it on the first try but as with anything ya gotta start somewhere. Biggest concern with this method will be the plaster mold cracking. We have some industrial Ovens at work i hope to use. These will hopefully cure the mold while melting out the PLA.  Ive seen some very impressive results using this method online, but Ive also seen more than a few failed attempts. Most of the failures were due to the plaster mold cracking, or the PLA not being fully melted out.

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 01:59:21 PM »
The Speedmaster unit has 50mm TBs, Would be nice if they offered larger units. I think they have the same basic set up for LS motors and others with the same TB but with a larger 52mm TB.
Think the 50mm would work well on a 390-445ish  motor with a reasonable cam, but i tend to agree with Jay, bigger motors will probably want a bigger TB. Come to think of it...

I did find an article a while back where they dynoed an LS7 motor with the stock vs Speedmaster ITBs (50mm), results weren't earth shattering, but the LS has a pretty good manifold to start with, but it did pretty good for a cheep imported knock off....
 I think the LS7 speedmaster ITB might need larger TBs as well...

edit, ok found the article :

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1611-speedmaster-ls7-downdraft-intake-test/

673 HP, Not bad for a 427. I am guessing that the 50mm Tbs used in the LS7 kit are exactly the same as the ones supplied with the 351C kit.
Would these do 700HP on Jays dyno mule???? Hmmmmmmmm.

Tobbemek

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 06:20:32 PM »
Injectors position ????

https://youtu.be/dB0J94ayu5k

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2018, 07:52:01 PM »
Nelson Racing manifolds are built similar.... i liked it so that's where i put the injector.. putting one in the conventional location is trivial though.

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2018, 12:57:09 PM »
Quote
Joey - Looks cool!  FYI you generally will want to aim your fuel injectors to hit the back of the valve.  Otherwise you'll be wetting the port wall.  That could cause driveability problems as fuel sloshes off unevenly.

That's a neat application of modern components.

Mr Conley pointed out that My injector positioning might be less than optimal, and as he seems to be a pretty sharp guy I re-assessed my initial design.

So I offer up this altered position for review, though I already like it better than the horizontal layout.   
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 01:04:53 PM by Joey120373 »

WConley

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2018, 11:58:31 PM »
Re: Revised injector position.  That looks more like stuff that I've seen work well  :)  Cool and very clean / stealthy.

Re:  Tobbemek's post on the Renault F-1 engine.   You can put an injector pretty much anywhere if the engine runs at full throttle all the time.  I bet that would be a sputtering handful if you tried to ease it into a parking spot at Starbucks. 

F-1 engines have terrible part-throttle driveability!  There's a reason they've got complex anti-stall systems installed nowadays.  In olden times it was common for drivers to stall their cars on the grid (except maybe the King of Smooth Jackie Stewart).
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

jayb

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2018, 02:28:57 PM »
I think the way to go for maximum power while maintaining driveability is to use two sets of injectors, a small set down near the entrance to the head port that would handle part throttle situations and a larger set up in the plenum, pointed at the runners, which would handle full throttle duties.  The reason you want the injectors up high is to maximize the time the fuel has to atomize and cool the incoming air/fuel mixture; a lot of carb guys point to this as the reason why they can (or think they can) make more power with a carburetor.  With the sophistication of the aftermarket EFI systems today, which can allow for different injector maps and multiple sets of injectors, setting up something like wouldn't be all that difficult. I can see where the hand-off between the two injector setups might be a tuning challenge, but when you're tuning with a laptop I think it would be pretty fast to get it dialed in.  This is something I'm hoping to try at some point...
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

WConley

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2018, 05:48:45 PM »
Interesting point!  The OEM's are moving toward combination direct and port EFI engines.  A lot of the Ecoboost V6's and the 2018 Coyote V8 are dual-injected.  Part of the reason is for part-throttle driveability, plus the port EFI helps wash deposits off of the intake valves.

Here's an article explaining how complicated the new stuff is getting.  I agree with you Jay that a small primary injector would give you much better fuel control in light load conditions...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/explained-why-some-engines-have-both-port-and-direct-injection
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Joey120373

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 04:44:25 PM »
not a great pick, but gives an idea of what i was going for.
Port size is spot on, mounting flange, mounting holes and injector location will need tweaking.
Angling the injector more downward will raise the fuel rail up, and that will be necessary as it is too close to the water crossover fitting.

Coreyc619

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2018, 02:10:35 PM »
Joey - have you considered fabbing a common plenum among all eight cylinders, with the injectors on a common rail running right down the middle?  Maybe two rails? If you're having trouble picturing what i'm trying to describe, google "formula one common rail".  Several examples will pop up... not only would it potentially dress up the appearance of OEM throttle bodies, I bet it would be worth some power too. I've done some back to back testing on a different engine platform I used to race - plenum in place between throttle bodies vs throttle bodies standing as individual stacks - I always made more power with the plenum in place.  Just throwing an idea.  I love what you have going on already, as-is.  Seemed you were open and still trying to choose your final direction.  I think something F1'ish would be awfully hard to beat, especially if you mimicked occupying most of the area between the valve covers. 

The reason you want the injectors up high is to maximize the time the fuel has to atomize and cool the incoming air/fuel mixture; a lot of carb guys point to this as the reason why they can (or think they can) make more power with a carburetor. 

Bingo.  To add a slightly altered viewpoint - I think it has less to do with how atomized the fuel may or may not be, and more for the latent heat of vaporization as the fuel transitions from liquid to vapor.  So, in 100% agreement about cooling the incoming air/fuel charge, and giving as much allowable time for this as possible.  *BUT* I've seen some very compelling data that shot "more atomization is better" straight in the face.  Apparently, especially as it goes for torque production, you can over atomize the fuel charge.  Give the same engine the exact same volume of fuel, but alter the droplet size as it approaches the intake valve, and prepare to throw several paradigms in the trash.  Conventional wisdom is always good to a point, but seems there is usually more waiting to be found if you're nerdy enough to search for it.  The general summary and conclusion is that the droplet size/torque relationship is tied to density (but kind of think "weight" too), temperature of the air fuel charge, surface area of fuel vs. available oxygen, and the fact that there is always a gradient for liquid to be moving to vapor, which comes into play all the way up to the point the spark plug lights off.  If fuel is introduced as an already fine mist, you end up losing out on each of those in one way or another.  Every engine will want something different, based on several variables - not the least of which, is the distance between fuel introduction to intake valve, and velocity between those two points.  The more efficient the engine, the larger the droplet size it tends to want at entry.  That's why a F1 fuel nozzle spray pattern looks worse than factory GM TBI stuff from the 90s.  That's why a high compression high winding N/A small block will make less power with an annular booster than a simple "stepped" booster of identical physical dimensions.  Crazy.  If F1 wanted to, they'd have the fuel rolling out of there like a mosquito fogger if that's what worked best.  Just sharing, because I found all of the above to be very interesting, and turned most of what I "thought I knew" on its head.  **My F1 references are to the N/A engines of the past. Current, DI setups are an entirely different creature altogether**

Something Vizard said in one of his books, coupled with something similar a guy named Gordon Jennings said in one of his, tipped me off to the concept of fuel droplet size being specific to maximizing power production... eventually that turned into a miniature research project, and ultimately ended up in me building several of my own carburetors.  (One was for my FE  ;D )  If you look hard enough, there are some very interesting reads.  In a few cases, some relatively lofty names actually share hard data.

cammerfe

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 05:16:49 PM »
Corey---

I'd like very much to explore further your research and its results. I'm in the start of a project that'll take me into the middle of next year to reach the fruition stage. I'm waiting in line for hard parts at the moment and likely won't have them in hand until into the new year. In the mean time, I'm looking into some of the details. Your comments awaken substantial interest. More soon?

KS

427HISS

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 08:39:34 PM »
Have you looked into BORLA ?

I have one for my 428FE build.

https://www.borlainduction.com/products/v8-kits.aspx

Dumpling

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2018, 09:18:25 PM »
Fe iron
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 08:38:36 PM by Dumpling »

Coreyc619

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 10:27:27 PM »
Corey---

I'd like very much to explore further your research and its results. I'm in the start of a project that'll take me into the middle of next year to reach the fruition stage. I'm waiting in line for hard parts at the moment and likely won't have them in hand until into the new year. In the mean time, I'm looking into some of the details. Your comments awaken substantial interest. More soon?

KS

I don't have a whole lot of technical data beyond what I already said.  There is instrumentation that can measure that sort of thing but I definitely don't own any.  Wish I could be more help.  I was more or less tossing the concept out, as I found it to be quite captivating myself.  It has been close to 3 years since I built my custom carb for the FE, I really don't remember exactly where I found the hard numbers.  Google different word combos around fuel droplet size and torque production and you'll eventually stumble across the same.  Again, sorry.  If I had that kind of time I'd go back and dig it up - really was just throwing it in to expand other's thought process.  The hard numbers I do have from this are simply gains in top speed mph in a race boat that I built custom carburetors for.  Not exactly an FE... We do weird crazy things down here in southeast Texas, like build tiller handle boats that run 80 mph in 660'.  No bullshit, but that's what it was on.  3 cylinder Yamaha, 69 cubic inch.  My carbs picked up 2 mph, which at that level is like going from a 9.20 @ 155 to an 8.90 @ 162.  We were thrilled. I had that droplet size concept in mind though as I went along, and modified the emulsion tube to make larger droplets but still respond as needed.  Honestly, I took an educated guess and got lucky, but damn it was fun.  Same jetting, same throat and butterfly went slightly slower on more highly atomized fuel. Same day testing. Swapped parts on a sand bar. Probably didn't help at all, but I wasn't going to leave you hanging.  I don't work at Koenigsegg or anything like that. I just like a challenge.

Barry_R

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2018, 05:35:14 AM »
twenty four injectors - everywhere...

https://youtu.be/DxZLb0jxD1Y

plovett

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2018, 05:45:10 AM »
Dang!  Sounds like the EFI guys have finally figured why stone-age carburetors make the same or more peak power than old school EFI.   

427HISS

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Re: Hilborn EFI
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2018, 07:57:03 PM »
Here's my story. I've always wanted to have a stacked EFI on my FE powered 427 Cobra. But the cost from $8k to &11k was not plausible.

I've kept it on my mind since 2001 and would search on the web ever sence. Last year I found the greatest deal, from a older man that retired and had a lot of money from being a under water welder. After chatting for over an hour about racing, Cobras, Carroll Shelby, sprint car's etc, he wanted $4,300 but sold it to me for $3,400. It's a very nice condition WTM/BORLA ready to use system, except for fuel lines. I won't be using the EZ-Learn from FAST that it came with, so I'm buying a stand alone laptop for beter control of many more parameter's. Most verything is polished, but I'll paint or powder coat the now black throttle bodies, to red. He laid out $800 on the polishing alone. The new computer is $800.

So, I'll be watching this great thread.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 08:26:01 PM by 427HISS »