Author Topic: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....  (Read 1334 times)

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westcoastgalaxie

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Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« on: July 15, 2018, 10:50:45 PM »
I came across this article from EPWI, see attached. It was given to me by a friend. It was just a standalone magazine for just this build, kind of a interesting way to promote your product. Like any magazine article it has misinformation, but it is not bad overall. Its a bit thin on details over the heads and camshaft, but the numbers are impressive for a 431. I do wonder if these were standard RPM heads or pro-ports. Either way not a cookie cutter recipe for getting 555hp out of a 390. :-) I do find it interesting as well that they choose a 4.125 crank over the more popular 4.25. I wonder if they have a surplus of those cranks to sell. :-)

blykins

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2018, 04:58:37 AM »
I always like the articles where they try to tout the supremacy of the EFI systems......and then make a comparison against the smallest carb they can find. 

A good bit of compression, 260° of duration at .050" with .640", ported heads with a Victor intake.  I don't think the results are unreasonable. 

As for the 4.125" crankshafts, they probably hit Scat up on one of the times when they were out of 4.250's.  Otherwise, I see no reason for the choice.
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My427stang

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2018, 05:52:55 AM »
I always like the articles where they try to tout the supremacy of the EFI systems......and then make a comparison against the smallest carb they can find. 

A good bit of compression, 260° of duration at .050" with .640", ported heads with a Victor intake.  I don't think the results are unreasonable. 

As for the 4.125" crankshafts, they probably hit Scat up on one of the times when they were out of 4.250's.  Otherwise, I see no reason for the choice.

I agree, there are so many other ways to tout the supremacy of EFI :)
   
Just teasing of course.  Seems like a ton of cam for a 6000 rpm peak, but I bet it's a pretty darn cool engine for a light stick car.  What struck me was that there was no gain in power with additional airflow. 

I will also add, that despite being a full-on EFI fan, that cam is pretty snotty, even at 112 LSA, in order to take advantage of the EFI, they are going to need to get inside that program more than a hand-held will allow.  I may have missed the advertised duration in the article, but my guess is the overlap is pretty stout
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Ross

- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 445 cid FE, headers, RPM , 1000 Holley HP, Bullet SFT cam, 4 speed

blykins

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2018, 06:10:12 AM »
I always like the articles where they try to tout the supremacy of the EFI systems......and then make a comparison against the smallest carb they can find. 

A good bit of compression, 260° of duration at .050" with .640", ported heads with a Victor intake.  I don't think the results are unreasonable. 

As for the 4.125" crankshafts, they probably hit Scat up on one of the times when they were out of 4.250's.  Otherwise, I see no reason for the choice.

I agree, there are so many other ways to tout the supremacy of EFI :)
   
Just teasing of course.  Seems like a ton of cam for a 6000 rpm peak, but I bet it's a pretty darn cool engine for a light stick car.  What struck me was that there was no gain in power with additional airflow. 

I will also add, that despite being a full-on EFI fan, that cam is pretty snotty, even at 112 LSA, in order to take advantage of the EFI, they are going to need to get inside that program more than a hand-held will allow.  I may have missed the advertised duration in the article, but my guess is the overlap is pretty stout

My guess is that it's a 308 advertised, by looking at a Comp lobe catalog. 

As for the 6000-6200 rpm peak, yeah, something was a cork somewhere.  The last solid roller 428 I did had a Tunnel Wedge, 11:1, and a 248/254 @ .050" solid roller.  It peaked at 6500 and kept pulling.  Maybe camshaft had too much overlap (84°) for that small of an engine?

I would have bolted an 850 on that thing, then went up from there to see what the numbers would be.  Who reaches for a 650 carb for a 433 inch, single plane, solid roller engine? 

« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:35:28 AM by blykins »
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chilly460

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2018, 07:16:54 AM »
Found it odd they spent five pages doing a background on the FE, giving info that's been rehashed a million times, but didn't bother to give full cam or head flow specs?  I actually thought, otherwise, it was a better magazine piece because at least it gave bearing clearances and deck clearance, etc.  Hard to say where the bottleneck without head specs, but I also was surprised at the 6000peak with that cam.  One pic where the intake ports are sort of shown, looks like they've been widened so it at least appears to be more than a bowl blend type deal so you'd think they heads wouldn't be the cork.  Hard to say.  TQ peak was near the RPM I expected but the 900rpm spread to HP peak also raises an eyebrow.  My guess is if they threw an 850 on there, the peak would've moved quite a bit, no explanation why it didn't with the EFI but that was a pretty peaky curve so seems something's up. 

I do appreciate any articles we can get though, all adds to the knowledge bank. 


blykins

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2018, 08:47:03 AM »
Apparently my reading skills have went to pot.  Not a Comp Cams stick. 
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andyf

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2018, 10:48:22 AM »
The article was just published but it appears to be an older build. Maybe something the author started a couple of years ago and it just took a long time due to funds or something. They did their own heads but didn't show any pictures of the head. It is an EFI article but they don't show details of the EFI. Instead the author spends 1/3 of the article talking about the history of the FE which was a waste of time since there are books written on the that subject. If I was the editor I would've cut out all the FE history stuff and asked for more details on the heads and EFI. I wonder how it drives with that cam in a Galaxie? Be interesting to find that out. EFI can tame down a big cam better than a carb, but it can still be a handful at low speeds.

plovett

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2018, 12:01:25 PM »
A 431 with decent induction peaking at 6000 rpm with a 260 @ 0.050" cam makes no sense.    When I see an article with something that makes no sense and it is not explained, I pretty much ignore it.

JMO,

paulie

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2018, 01:01:29 PM »
Take that article with a grain of salt, it was intended for shops/people with little or no FE experience...It was, as almost all other engine articles that are written by Engine Builders with generalities in mind. The intended audience is the average machine shop that builds a variety of engines, most of which are more modern. That FE article to me was a refreshing change from the typical small block Chevy, LS series Chevy or big block Chevy "How to" build. There have been so many "How to build a Small block Chevy" articles it is nauseating. I would have thought the forum members would be grateful for a FE build, no matter how general, rather than another SBC to add to the other 10,000 articles written on the SBC/BBC, etc.   

andyf

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 02:51:55 PM »
A 431 with decent induction peaking at 6000 rpm with a 260 @ 0.050" cam makes no sense.    When I see an article with something that makes no sense and it is not explained, I pretty much ignore it.

JMO,

paulie

It makes sense if the cam is too big for the application. That engine would most likely have the same peak power at the same point if the cam was 10 degrees smaller. Unless a person does a lot of similar combinations it is easy to mis-match the parts. Overcamming an engine is probably the second most common mistake after using too big of a carb.

chilly460

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 02:55:31 PM »
Seemed like plenty of throttle body, ported Victor, and ported Edelbrocks with a 2.15" valve should be able to pull more than 6000, I think is what most people are saying.  Could be a valve harmonics deal but you'd think power would fall off a cliff if so. 

blykins

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 03:00:04 PM »
A 431 with decent induction peaking at 6000 rpm with a 260 @ 0.050" cam makes no sense.    When I see an article with something that makes no sense and it is not explained, I pretty much ignore it.

JMO,

paulie

It makes sense if the cam is too big for the application. That engine would most likely have the same peak power at the same point if the cam was 10 degrees smaller. Unless a person does a lot of similar combinations it is easy to mis-match the parts. Overcamming an engine is probably the second most common mistake after using too big of a carb.

Agree on the camshaft.  There is a point where the cam is just too large and then you end up with an engine without any bottom end or top end either one.  But it would probably sound pretty good......those engines are called "Dairy Queeners" because their only purpose is to sound good while you're driving through to get a Blizzard.



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mbrunson427

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 03:13:25 PM »
those engines are called "Dairy Queeners"

Ha! I'm using this one. The '68 Cougar has a cam in it that Cam Research made. It sounds way more badass than it really is (still makes 500 horse though). All the parts are sitting here to replace the 452 with a 520 cube BBM, just need to do some family heckling to get the project off the ground. This may work.

Or more likely, Bob will tell me he like's Dairy Queen.

plovett

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2018, 06:08:36 PM »
I had a 432 inch FE peak at 6200 rpm with a 240/246 solid flat tappet cam.  Admittedly it didn't make as much power (517 hp).  It's just when something doesn't make sense in an article there's no way to get an explanation unless the author is available.  So I just ignore it.  There are so many magazine articles that don't make sense and there is no way to know the critical info that you need, or if the info stated is even true.

That's what is cool about this forum.  If one of the engine builders posts an engine build, they can 'splain' it. 

JMO,

paulie

andyf

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Re: Magazine 431 build with 555 hp....
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2018, 08:37:24 PM »
Yeah 240 duration would probably work just fine in that engine. I had a 470 inch pump gas engine in my car with a 236/236 solid flat tappet cam. That engine made 475 rwhp with an Edelbrock 800 carb and cast iron exhaust manifolds. It would scare the crap out of people when I floored it and grabbed the next gear. So I'm not sure why the guy put a 260 degree cam in a 431.

I put a 254/260 solid roller in that 482 inch engine I did for Car Craft. That engine ran nice on the dyno but I won't be surprised if the owner wants to go one size smaller once the car is on the street. The car I have now has 512 inches with a 246/246 hyd roller and I think next time I update the engine I'll go one step smaller on the cam.

Of course some of this has to do with age. I reduce my cam size by a degree or two every year as I get older. When I was in my 20's I was okay with a 260 cam but these days 240 is more than enough. I really don't need to keep rapping on the gas pedal at every stop light to clear the engine out like I did when I was in high school.