Author Topic: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?  (Read 4698 times)

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427HISS

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Anyone remember the test's done on TV of Slick 50  ?
Then came Zmax, Lucas etc....Has anyone aside from the manufactures, tested these type of products ?

My427stang

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 08:30:03 PM »
They are a waste of money.  Only exception would potentially be a zinc additive when you have flat tappets, but even then, better to buy a formulated oil designed for use over guessing at an additive package
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Lenz

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2018, 07:19:51 AM »
Agree, I've never seen or heard real world evidence in support of quick fix or enhancement additives.  Being a flat tappet sort I run Brad Penn for the zinc for the reason stated, I don't have to guess at the required amount or be concerned with compatibility issues.
Len Zielinski
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'69 F100 300 stick

427HISS

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2018, 09:38:58 AM »
Are you guys saying that these company's are lying to us !  :-[ 
But they sound very honest in the commercial's...... ;)

With all due respect, how do us gearheads know whether they work or not ?
It would great if some car guy chemist's, engineer's, etc...and what ever else would be needed to test these products, rather than the company's paid actor's.

machoneman

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2018, 10:01:06 AM »
The only pour-in additives that do work are IMO for engines that are very high mileage, gooked-up, worn-out and otherwise badly  serviced (no regular oil changes, that is). Brands such as Rislone Engine Treatment (blue-green, thin fluid) does work to loosen stuck rings, free-up lifters, etc. The downside is one must change the oil pretty quickly afterwards IF the oil starts to get real dirty fast. The scouring power of this and some other engine cleaners is pretty strong, hence deposits come off the internals and could clog a filter.

You're talking though about oil additives that claim lower friction, promise more MPG's and longer engine life.   

Nope, save your $$$ for regularly scheduled oil and filter changes. JMO! 
Bob Maag

shady

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2018, 11:34:04 AM »
Well... I still put STP in my old stuff. Nothing modern or tight, but my vintage big clearance motors. It's $2 a bottle at Walmart & has a lot of zinc in it. Also use it for assembly. All modern owners manuals tell you not to use any kind of additives. I think most modern oil today is pretty good no matter what the brand & with the complex timing components, you better change it when recommended & use the right viscosity.
What goes fast doesn't go fast long'
What goes fast takes your money with it.
So I'm slow & broke, what went wrong?
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My427stang

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2018, 11:44:39 AM »
Search around here:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm

They do analysis and most of the stuff is nothing significant.  Buy it if you want to, but if it did anything, OEM would be putting it in the fill to sneak mileage out of it.

It really is baloney if you have the right oil, engine oil isn't KY or hand lotion, it doesn't make anything harder or softer :)
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Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

FElony

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 01:27:09 PM »
... engine oil isn't KY or hand lotion, it doesn't make anything harder or softer :)

So, you've tested that theory first hand?

I mentioned a while back that I had a discussion about this with Torco Oil, which is close to me here. They said that there is a sweet spot for zinc around 1100-1300 ppm, and that some guys are doing the old "If a little is good, a lot is even better" approach. Over 1300, zinc becomes abrasive and is pretty much guaranteed to wipe lobes and cause other damage. You know lots of cam failures are blamed on component manufacturing, but how many guys actually own up to throwing too much ZDDP additive into their oil? Not a one.

babybolt

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2018, 07:55:41 PM »
I've used Motorkote to free a stuck lifter and it worked, and the engine did seem to have less friction.

The Lucas power steering additive works for the crappy Ford C-II pump, doesn't solve the whining completely but does quiet it down and gives better steering feel.




TomP

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2018, 01:44:35 AM »
The Lucas transmission fix is a miracle. I used it on my old wagon. The Cruis-O would not even move in gear for several minutes until it warmed up. Stuck in the bottle of Lucas and within minutes the tranny was working fine. Never had that tranny out of the car.

My427stang

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2018, 06:40:44 AM »
... engine oil isn't KY or hand lotion, it doesn't make anything harder or softer :)

So, you've tested that theory first hand?



First hand, second hand, and although it's getting fewer and far-betweener, when Mrs Stang is cooperative, even a third hand now and then....

Going back to the original question, I could have mistaken it, but I think he was asking about Z-max, Slick 50, and the other "anti-friction" horsepower and protection stuff.  A little different than the high detergent and viscosity builders that can have some unique benefits, although I still think they are band-aids at best, and no place in a fresh motor with the right oil

Some reading, I found this on a net.  It's am Amsoil dealer web page, which is good oil, but somehow can be a little cult-like itself LOL  Nothing against the stuff, just odd how loyal the followers are sometimes.  (Sorry if I offend anyone here, it is good oil)

It also addresses the "too much of a good thing" that FElony pointed out.




Federal Trade Commission Charges zMax with False and Deceptive Advertising

ZMax is the latest company to be charged in a long list of companies. (Read about the latest FTC charges against zMax in our informative articles links below). The FTC has successfully halted false and deceptive advertising by the marketers of Dura Lube, Motor Up, Prolong, Valvoline, Slick 50, STP and other major brands of engine treatment systems.  Unfortunately, halting the deceptive advertising does not correct the false word-of-mouth advertising which continues to be spread by unsuspecting customers who don’t know they were originally lied to.

Without going into extensive detail here’s what you need to know about most aftermarket oil additives: There are basically two types of additives used, either Teflon based with PTFE (like Slick 50) or Chlorinated based (like Dura Lube) with some type of carrier, usually a paraffin based carrier or other mineral oil. Some have extremely large amounts of moly (or MoS2 – Molybdenum Disulfide), zinc or phosphorus: all are EP (extreme pressure) agents which are detrimental to a motor oils’ proper function in the amount that these additives use.

EP additives are great in gear lubes (where they’re widely used by the whole lubrication industry), but they typically cause increased friction, heat, and reduced fuel economy at the lower-pressure loads in an engine application.  And at the higher operating temperatures that engine oils are subjected to, EP’s typically break down and cause corrosion of copper/bronze/brass components (bearings).

Teflon does absolutely nothing beneficial inside your engine. Teflon must be heated up to about 800 deg. F to get it to stick to anything for friction reducing purposes, just like the Teflon on a frying pan. In your engine what those suspended microscopic colloidal Teflon particles do is gradually attach to your oil pick-up screen and reduce oil flow to your critical components as well as reducing the oil flow in other critical internal engine passages by attaching themselves to the passageway walls. In addition, as your oil filter captures some of these suspended Teflon particles, your filter flow rate will be reduced with a higher pressure drop across the filter.  The increasing restriction can gradually default more often into by-pass mode even at moderate temperatures and engine rpm’s, which means more unfiltered oil will be flowing through your engine.  At higher rpm’s, some filters can collapse from the higher pressure differentials, starving your engine for oil and producing rapid engine failure.

Ever get bleach on your fingers? It’s pretty slippery isn’t it? Same principle here. Add enough Chlorinated components to a carrier and mix it with some type of teflon, moly, zinc or phosporus & you can reduce the friction, except for one “minor” thing: Chlorinated additives mixed with oil and subjected to heat form hydrochloric acid! Hydrochloric acid is extremely harmful to your internal engine parts. Get the picture?

That’s the summary picture. Bottom line is: When using a properly formulated motor oil you do not need any additives whatsoever and additionally, the additives you may put in can react negatively with the additives the oil company carefully blended in. Do yourself a favor and stay away from aftermarket oil additives, regardless of how appealing the bogus claims are in their advertising! Instead, use a high-performance synthetic oil that publishes their ASTM test data… instead of implying with a marketing-Jedi mind-wave “you don’t need to see our data”. (Yes, you really do.)
What if They Have a Test To Show How Their Additive Works?… Read On…………

At a trade show we attended, one of these miracle oil additive companies was there with a machine that demonstrated how their additive reduced friction. It was a motor with rotating solid steel disc secured to the motor shaft and a torque meter with a flat piece of steel mounted on the torque arm. They put every type of oil on the market, one by one, on the machine & pressed hard on the torque meter and at about 20-40 lb-ft torque the torque arm would stall the motor….that is, until they cleaned it off & tried their (chlorinated) additive “IXL” on the bearing & ran the test.

People were amazed as the meter peaked out at 140 lb-ft. torque and still didn’t stall the motor! We knew what was happening but many unsuspecting consumers were eating it up and standing in line to buy the additive! The next day we showed up with some Head & Shoulders Shampoo disguised in an oil bottle & had the IXL additive people try it on their test machine. The operator was amazed as the motor barely stalled at 140 lb-ft! The operator says that’s pretty good stuff, what is it? We said Head & Shoulders. He was quite embarrassed to say the least. Head & Shoulders has high levels of ZINC in it that attaches itself to ferrous metals. Coke soft drink will do exactly the same thing. ZINC reduces friction and provides anti-wear protection and is present in most motor oils at a much reduced level. Now, would you put Head & Shoulders in your engine?   


---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

garyv

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2018, 07:44:14 AM »
I just used Marvel Mystery Oil to free up a couple of stuck valves in a 1950 226H Ford flathead 6.  It had been stored in my
garage for 20 some years and probably hadn't run in 25 years. Also soaked the rings with it for a couple of weeks while getting it
ready to run.  Put some in the gas once I got it started and it runs like a top.  I love these old flatheads.  ;D
Guys on the HAMB board swear by this stuff for getting old engines running again by unsticking rings and valves. I'm not making any
outlandish claims about it but all I can say is it seemed to work well for what I was doing.

garyv

babybolt

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2018, 08:05:31 AM »
The ATF tricks works good also.  Right before you change you're oil, add a quart of ATF to your engine.  It will clean out the gunk inside the engine.  It worked almost too well for me one time.  Added the ATF and went around the block, but barely made it home, the engine started knocking.  So much swarf came loose in the engine that it blocked the oil filter.

Drew Pojedinec

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2018, 09:04:38 AM »
I mentioned a while back that I had a discussion about this with Torco Oil, which is close to me here. They said that there is a sweet spot for zinc around 1100-1300 ppm, and that some guys are doing the old "If a little is good, a lot is even better" approach. Over 1300, zinc becomes abrasive and is pretty much guaranteed to wipe lobes and cause other damage. You know lots of cam failures are blamed on component manufacturing, but how many guys actually own up to throwing too much ZDDP additive into their oil? Not a one.


So, fun fact.  Not related to cams but folks have this idea that engines just need zinc.  The EMD engines I work with on the boat, we never change the oil.  Each engine takes 350 gallons in the sump and consume somewhere around 5-7 gallons a day while cruising.  Anyway, the one exception where I'll drop the oil immediately is if they test out at having over 10ppm (yes, TEN).  I can't even use galvanized piping on account of this.  Sure these have an overhead roller cam, but just showing that engine oil doesn't require zinc, solid flat tappet cams do.

cjshaker

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Re: Eng. Builders, Hobbiest's, do engine additives really work ?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2018, 10:03:51 AM »
I just used Marvel Mystery Oil to free up a couple of stuck valves in a 1950 226H Ford flathead 6.  It had been stored in my
garage for 20 some years and probably hadn't run in 25 years. Also soaked the rings with it for a couple of weeks while getting it
ready to run.  Put some in the gas once I got it started and it runs like a top.  I love these old flatheads.  ;D
Guys on the HAMB board swear by this stuff for getting old engines running again by unsticking rings and valves. I'm not making any
outlandish claims about it but all I can say is it seemed to work well for what I was doing.

garyv

Growing up, I can't count how many times I helped my Dad drag an old flathead car from the back "yard" after sitting for 15-20 years. This was in a wooded area, with lots of moisture, dropping leaves etc. Usually there would be a wheel or two that had stuck, but after some rocking and dragging, they'd always break loose. When it came to the engines, we'd just pull the plugs, squirt a little bit of oil on the valves and in the cylinders, using an oil can that had a long enough spout to get past the valves and into the cylinder. I always had to squirt the gas into the carb while he choked it and turned it over. I don't EVER recall an engine that wouldn't start and eventually run good after a bit, giving the rings a chance to free up and the valves to clean the seats off and seal better. The gas lasted MUCH longer back then, so typically that wasn't an issue either, but even if it smelled a bit foul, the engines would run ok. The only time I hated doing this was when it would backfire, catching me off guard and scaring me. It usually lit my squirt bottle on fire also..lol  Man I miss being a kid growing up in that environment!
Doug Smith


'69 R-code Mach 1, 427 MR, 2x4, Jerico, 4.30 Locker
'70 F-350 390
'55 Ford Customline 2dr
'37 Ford Coupe