Best Street Cam/TC/Gear Combo for 428?

[CV355]

Hello everyone,

I put another two months of work into my '69, and the streetability is still not where I want it to be.  I'm looking at doing a cam swap, tighter TC, steeper rear gears, and a gentler automatic valvebody.

What would your recommendations be for a mild street-oriented cam / TC / rear gear combo?  I want this to be a reliable cruiser car and right now it's not.  As stated in a previous thread, S-CR is between 10.5 and 11.0 but will be measured soon.  I want to be able to take my wife on a weekend cruise or car show, and right now the car is just too unrefined to do so.

[blykins]

What car?  What engine?  What transmission? 

[CV355]

What car?  What engine?  What transmission?

'69 Mustang Mach 1, 428cj, C6 trans. 

Current cam is a Lunati (cheater cam, stock I/E lift) that is quite aggressive, trans has a 3.5-4k stall converter, and rear gear is 4.11. 

[blykins]

You're gonna get a ton of answers here, because we all have different ideas of what's streetable.  For me, I'd drive it like it is because I like them on the rowdy side.  Others desire a more docile driving experience. 

If you're looking for a great cruising combo, a 2500 rpm stall, with a 3.50 gear, and a hydraulic cam in the high 220's on .050" duration will put you where I think you want to be.  Keep in mind though, that if the compression ratio is high (10.5-11), it will make it more sensitive to pump gas when you cam it to have a more streetable stance.

[CV355]

You're gonna get a ton of answers here, because we all have different ideas of what's streetable.  For me, I'd drive it like it is because I like them on the rowdy side.  Others desire a more docile driving experience. 

If you're looking for a great cruising combo, a 2500 rpm stall, with a 3.50 gear, and a hydraulic cam in the high 220's on .050" duration will put you where I think you want to be.  Keep in mind though, that if the compression ratio is high (10.5-11), it will make it more sensitive to pump gas when you cam it to have a more streetable stance.

Understood, and I only run 93 in all of my vehicles.  The 428 gets 93 with octane booster just to help prevent knock (though I haven't experienced it knock myself- this was by recommendation of the previous owner)

2500/3.50 is what I was thinking as well. 

[blykins]

Here's one I did recently: 

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5674.0

It would be a good match for what you're wanting to do. 

If you're trying to skirt around some higher compression, I'd think hard about running a hydraulic roller as the advertised durations are high enough to help with the compression ratio.  Running a hydraulic flat tappet at lower durations will probably pose a tricky situation. 

[plovett]

What is it about the current combination that is too unrefined?  High cruise rpm?  Rough idle and low rpm characteristics?

The convertor seems to have too high of a stall speed for your cam in any case.  Just swapping it for a 2500-2800 rpm stall would make sense to me.  3000 rpm stall at most.

I have a cam in my 428 with almost 20 degrees more duration and I use a 3600 rpm stall convertor (and 4.11 gears). Though mine is a solid cam so it's not apples to apples, but still.....

JMO,

paulie

[1968galaxie]

There is quite a difference between a 428 CJ copy camshaft and a stock class "cheater" camshaft.
If the op has a stock class cheater cam it will certainly require a 3500+ stall converter.

I have a Lunati stock class camshaft in a 390 build - I believe the duration was over 250 @ 0.050".

Cheers

[andyf]

Hello everyone,

I put another two months of work into my '69, and the streetability is still not where I want it to be.  I'm looking at doing a cam swap, tighter TC, steeper rear gears, and a gentler automatic valvebody.

What would your recommendations be for a mild street-oriented cam / TC / rear gear combo?  I want this to be a reliable cruiser car and right now it's not.  As stated in a previous thread, S-CR is between 10.5 and 11.0 but will be measured soon.  I want to be able to take my wife on a weekend cruise or car show, and right now the car is just too unrefined to do so.

Too much cam, gear and carb are the most common mistakes that hot rodders make. I see it all the time and I make the same mistake myself sometimes. Everyone is always pushing bigger and bigger stuff. Not very many ads say "use our small cam and carb and be happy". When I get lost I always go back and look at the cam that Chevy put in their 502 crate engine. It is tiny, around 220/230 at 0.050. That engine works nice in street rods and heavy cars and older muscle cars. I have a 512 inch engine in my street car with a 245 @ 050 hyd roller and I think the cam is too big. I was sure it would be the right size but after driving it I think I was 5 degrees too big. So it happens to most of us.

[andyf]

How much tuning have you done with the combination? An aggressive cam will need more ignition timing and some very careful calibration changes to the carb. If you haven't spent a day or two on a chassis dyno then that would be one recommendation. It is possible that the cam is just too aggressive for your application so you might need to change it but you might be able to save it by tuning. Have you advanced the cam to see how it responds?

Another option is the one I'm doing right now with my street car. I've gotten tired of constantly chasing a tune with analog carbs and ignition systems so I'm switching over to EFI with computer controlled ignition. The full digital approach gives you screen top tuning as well as data logging. With full data logging capability it is easier find some issues and resolve them. The Holley Sniper kit will give you a lot of tuning capability for only $1000 so you might consider going that way. Who knows, maybe EFI will tame the combination down enough that you won't need to change the cam and the TC. If so you'll end up money ahead.

[Joe-JDC]

Having been there with my Shelby, I went back to the stock CJ camshaft, 3.50:1 gears, 2400 converter/wide ratio gear set, headers, recurved distributor @ 14* initial and restored very good driving manners.  I don't care for the jerking around at idle any more, a sure sign of maturity---finally!  LOL   Joe-JDC

[gt350hr]

  I agree with Brent , that Lunati "stocker" cam is waaaaay too aggressive for the street . Duration should be in the high 220's or low 230's for something street driven. Over .500 lift helps too. Hydraulic rollers "act" like a regular hydraulic that has 10* more duration .

[fryedaddy]

I guess the word streetable is different from man to man. im running 4.11 gears,3600 stall,.245 at .050 flat tappet,3000 pound comet-c6,and i drive it almost every day for daily driver.seems streetable to me as long as i dont go over 25-30 miles from home.i had a 280 crower hyd.flat cam with 3.50 gears in it before and it was real streetable.i even drove it on vaction 1000 miles no issues.i think after .245 at 50 they start getting less streetable,but every mans version  of streetable is a little different.

[FElony]

Having been there with my Shelby, I went back to the stock CJ camshaft, 3.50:1 gears, 2400 converter/wide ratio gear set, headers, recurved distributor @ 14* initial and restored very good driving manners.  I don't care for the jerking around at idle any more, a sure sign of maturity---finally!  LOL   Joe-JDC

Yep, I think many guys have forgotten (or never knew) how well a tuned stock/mild CJ car really runs. Used to be able to find lots of them for sale unmodified with over 100k miles that still ran well. Can anyone build a stocker these days and still call himself a man? Perhaps not.

[WerbyFord]

If its this Lunati Cheater, that's only 224-232-114, which is just a bit rougher than the old Ford c8ax-c at 220-230-116.
That cam was very streetable. It needed a converter but would do fine with a stock converter, even in a little 390.


http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2269

IF that's the cam you have, you might not need or want a milder cam - it just might be the 3500-4000 stall and 4.11 gears (on the freeway???) that is the problem. That cam would do fine in a light mustang with say 3.50 gears and 2500 stall as stated above.

The problem with a much smaller cam also is that at 10.5-11.0 CR, with iron heads and cast pistons you'd be in trouble with pump gas. A blocked heat crossover, cold air to the carb, and keeping the engine below 190F would help, but then you're into cutting the timing back and making it run like a tired dog.

So it will want a decent cam with that much compression - if you have the 224-232-114 Lunati Cheater already that sounds about right.

4.11 gears and 4000 stall sounds super-annoying on the freeway. Running 4.11s in a slushbox it will rev about like 4.30s in a stick car which is crazy at 70mph. Marginal back in the old 55mph Carter Days but not today. Needs taller gears and less converter, then you might be fine as-is!