Author Topic: Rocker Arm Geometry  (Read 3858 times)

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19cougar68

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Rocker Arm Geometry
« on: May 11, 2018, 10:25:26 AM »
I have been following along on the discussion on rocker arm geometry in the New Trick Flow Head thread.  There is a lot of great information on there with a great video link by Scott Foxwell but decided to create a new thread on the topic.

My question was eluded to in that thread but being a newbie I need a little more information/clarification.  My build will have BBM heads, factory non-adjustable rockers, a hydraulic roller cam and Morel hydraulic roller lifters.  Using the factory "shoe type rockers" what are the parameters to consider to obtain correct rocker arm geometry?  How do I verify rocker to valve tip contact?  Is it possible to use the 90 degree perpendicular goal at mid-lift?  Do I even need to worry about any of this with stock non-roller rockers?  I gave away my rocker tins since I was told they would not be compatible with BBM heads.  As a minimum do I have to compensate my rocker stand height to compensate for the height of the missing tins?  I have to order my pushrods soon so I would like to make certain of my rocker setup first.  Thank you.


andyf

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 10:42:59 AM »
First step is to mock it all up and see what she does. Cover the tip of the valve with something so you can get a mark. I usually just color it with a felt tip marker and then rotate the engine a few times to see what kind of witness mark is left. You can also tell a lot by just observing how the rocker moves across the valve tip. You'll probably have a problem with the hyd roller lifters if you are using the actual springs but they should work okay with checking springs. To see how it looks with the actual springs you might need to use a solid roller lifter.

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 10:52:36 AM »
I went through quite a bit of mocking up and testing the mid lift theory on my FE when I first started building the heads. Here's a thread I started:

http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5150.0

19cougar68

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 11:30:21 AM »
Andy and Scott thanks for the quick response and your input.  I am planning on getting 8 checker springs so I can go through an entire side's mockup without having to remove the shaft assembly for each cylinder's push rod length determination. I also have end stands included on my rocker arm setup.  I will keep rereading the link you sent until I'm confident in what I need to do.  At least now I have an idea of what to expect for the stand shims.  Thank you!

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 11:58:26 AM »
Andy and Scott thanks for the quick response and your input.  I am planning on getting 8 checker springs so I can go through an entire side's mockup without having to remove the shaft assembly for each cylinder's push rod length determination. I also have end stands included on my rocker arm setup.  I will keep rereading the link you sent until I'm confident in what I need to do.  At least now I have an idea of what to expect for the stand shims.  Thank you!
I have to add my conclusion from the thread I posted, since I never did that. I would set the rockers up so that you get your advertised lift @ the valve. Because of the nature of the shoe rocker, you can alter the ratio radically by raising or lowering the shaft (changing geometry) and thereby alter the lift. I've been asking just about everyone I know in the industry for a while now, what's the criteria for setting geometry on a shoe rocker and still haven't gotten a good answer. I'm sure the engineers had something they were working with so I defer back to them and figure if you're getting the advertised lift, the intended geometry should be close. I'm not convinced at all that trying to obtain the least amount of sweep is the right way to go on this.

19cougar68

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 12:19:08 PM »
Scott - thanks for the follow up.  I will verify the lift at the valve as you suggest as part of my valve train mock up.  Really appreciate your input. 

HvyFt4spd

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2018, 12:34:41 PM »
 Scott,

  Have you tried Gary at Rocker Arms Unlimited? He was recommended to me by both Blair and the guy making the tool steel high lift SS rockers who's name escapes me right now... Anyway Gary made me a set of custom rockers and was glad to discuss the details. He's as busy as anyone but I'd think he'd be up for some shop talk in regards to this.

,Dan

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2018, 02:46:31 PM »
Scott,

  Have you tried Gary at Rocker Arms Unlimited? He was recommended to me by both Blair and the guy making the tool steel high lift SS rockers who's name escapes me right now... Anyway Gary made me a set of custom rockers and was glad to discuss the details. He's as busy as anyone but I'd think he'd be up for some shop talk in regards to this.

,Dan
Thanks Dan, I may follow up on that. There are a few guys I know that are experimenting with non-roller tip rockers in some very high rpm, very high HP V8 stuff. It makes sense to me that they would be a better deal even with the scrubbing on the valve tip. WAY more stable than any sort of roller tip.
Thanks again.

HvyFt4spd

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2018, 04:13:37 PM »
 Hey Scott,
Glad to, Gary is busy but a really nice guy that's very willing to help out from my limited dealings with him. I got set of 534 truck rockers modified to a 1.8 ratio with cup adjusters for ball-ball pushrods. He had done them before but ended up making a new fixture for them. Part of that was I wanted the setup calculated while accounting for the factory drip tins and stand height of what I had at the time.

Thinking about it the SS rockers I mentioned were from Grahm. He was very helpful as well and was moving into making a 2.0 rocker vs the 1.8's at the time due to a class rule change. Not sure about now but they were around $2k I think two years ago.

, Dan

Tobbemek

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018, 05:31:08 PM »
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/a/ad/MILLER_ROCKER_HISTORY_MID_LIFT.pdf

Here is the "miller story " about the full understanding of the MID LIFT THEORY and the difference with roller tip rockers VS shoe tip rockers.
The ting i haven't figured out yet is if you would "lock" the roller tip to get it to sweep instead of roll over the valve tip how would that change the rocker ratio like from a roller tip ratio to a shoe tip ratio if you understand  what i am getting at.

machoneman

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 06:10:04 PM »
Good to see this post of Miller's story, written IIRC in the 1980's.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/a/ad/MILLER_ROCKER_HISTORY_MID_LIFT.pdf

Here is the "miller story " about the full understanding of the MID LIFT THEORY and the difference with roller tip rockers VS shoe tip rockers.
The ting i haven't figured out yet is if you would "lock" the roller tip to get it to sweep instead of roll over the valve tip how would that change the rocker ratio like from a roller tip ratio to a shoe tip ratio if you understand  what i am getting at.
Bob Maag

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 07:05:30 PM »
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/images/a/ad/MILLER_ROCKER_HISTORY_MID_LIFT.pdf

Here is the "miller story " about the full understanding of the MID LIFT THEORY and the difference with roller tip rockers VS shoe tip rockers.
The ting i haven't figured out yet is if you would "lock" the roller tip to get it to sweep instead of roll over the valve tip how would that change the rocker ratio like from a roller tip ratio to a shoe tip ratio if you understand  what i am getting at.
I think if the radius of the shoe was the same as the radius of the roller tip, and they were both working off (rotating about) the same centerline of the radius, then there would be no difference.

Katz427

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2018, 09:06:39 AM »
I remember that "mid-lift" and Jim Miller from the old Super Ford article. Jim had been making rocker arms for the Boss 429. Made sense. Thanks to Scott for the video, which was well explained.  I have to ask, are any rocker arms made that follow Jim's design ?

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2018, 02:15:09 PM »
I remember that "mid-lift" and Jim Miller from the old Super Ford article. Jim had been making rocker arms for the Boss 429. Made sense. Thanks to Scott for the video, which was well explained.  I have to ask, are any rocker arms made that follow Jim's design ?
When you say "Jim's design", what are you referring to?

Katz427

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2018, 02:32:12 PM »
Well Scott, I had to go back and look up an old Super Ford magazine out of the attic. Miller thought was that the Sharp and Crane rocker arms of the day, as well as the Boss 429 had the pushrod located wrong. Where you drew the line in your video thru the axis of the roller and bearing he agreed with.
That said he referred that the Sharp and Crane rocker arm were designed based off the surface of the roller and valve stem tip. Thus he had Sharp make some rocker arms up using the geometry you show in the video. His Boss rocker had the pushrod cup closer to that axis to minimise the pushrod movement, giving a straighter push on the rocker arm.  Jim tried to get Sharp to do all their rocker arms to this geometry. If I am explaining correctly.

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2018, 03:13:06 PM »
Well Scott, I had to go back and look up an old Super Ford magazine out of the attic. Miller thought was that the Sharp and Crane rocker arms of the day, as well as the Boss 429 had the pushrod located wrong. Where you drew the line in your video thru the axis of the roller and bearing he agreed with.
That said he referred that the Sharp and Crane rocker arm were designed based off the surface of the roller and valve stem tip. Thus he had Sharp make some rocker arms up using the geometry you show in the video. His Boss rocker had the pushrod cup closer to that axis to minimize the pushrod movement, giving a straighter push on the rocker arm.  Jim tried to get Sharp to do all their rocker arms to this geometry. If I am explaining correctly.
OK, I understand. I've talked with Jim several times over the years. I think he would love for people to believe he "invented" mid lift geometry. The only thing he really invented...and patented...was the term "mid lift". Rocker arms have been in use for centuries, and so has "proper" geometry. Geometry is not something anyone invented. It's something we observe. Jim was correct in that the pushrod side of the rocker has it's own geometric requirements like the valve side and I will say, most rockers are not very close on the pushrod side once you get the valve side right. We focus on the valve side for a few reasons; one, we're dealing with the valve. That's what we're trying to control. Two, because of the ratio in the rocker, any errors on that end are going to be amplified more than the pushrod side. Three, we have a guide that will be greatly effected by what we do on that side of the rocker. We can't control both sides of the rocker at once, so we have to pick one. To answer your question, yes, there are rockers that are correct on both sides. The Sharp rockers I have on my 390, once set up to proper mid lift geometry, are very close on the pushrod side. At least for my lift. The pushrod side needs to be the same as the valve side; if you look at the ball on the pushrod (or rocker) as the pivot point of that side of the rocker just as you look at the roller tip as the pivot point for the other side, then you apply the same technique; you find the center of the ball, draw an imaginary line through it and the center of the rocker pivot (shaft in this case) and that line should be 90* to the pushrod at mid lift. I've worked with Sharp on developing some BB Chev stud mount rockers for AFR that are correct on both sides at .700" lift. We offer them as sets and AFR also now recommends them to their customers.
One thing to keep in mind; there is NO industry standard for roller tip rockers. The OEM's never used them on any of these American engines we are familiar with, so there is no design standard. That's why there are more versions and "designs" of roller tip rockers than one can shake a stick at. The best rocker IMO used to be the Crane Gold, but they seem have to gone off shore and are no longer the same rocker they once were. We've been using Sharp for all our rocker needs for the last few years and been very satisfied. Too many other companies try to build a rocker that fits more than one application and while, for most deals they will work, most are not right when you try to set them up correctly. I get a dozen calls on this subject a week.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 03:19:35 PM by scott foxwell »

scott foxwell

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2018, 03:37:56 PM »
Kinda like this:

Katz427

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Re: Rocker Arm Geometry
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2018, 06:16:28 PM »
Yes, that sketch shows it well.  I think I 'll give the whole deal another shot on my 460. It has stainless steel Crower rocker arms. As you referenced , I think they sold rockers for a BBC for use on  Ford 460's back about 30 years ago. Thanks for the info.