Author Topic: Timing trouble....  (Read 9045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Red Lehr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2018, 09:06:40 PM »
I took Faron's advice and put the original heavy springs back on ,and set the timing back to 13 initial. Starts great and idles at 800 rpms.
The original problem I was having after the install of the new heads was on start up the engine would be warming up (around 1500 rpms) and then just start to die. This will continue until something changes.  I use electronic choke...

Another thing I noticed is the damn carbon contact in the MSD cap is burned off again. I swear you should change the cap on these MSD dist. when you change the oil !
I've been thinking of a new distributor , what would be a good choice ?? MSD Digital E-Curve ??

Something Larry talked about was rotor phasing and I noticed when I lifted the rotor that the lugs on the reluctor are never lined up with the magnetic pick up as it shows in the picture.
Correct reluctor position is the first pic,
my reluctor is the second pic....
BTW, thanks for all your kind help fellas....


« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 09:15:16 PM by Red Lehr »

jayb

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7578
    • View Profile
    • FE Power
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2018, 03:32:32 PM »
The carbon tip on the MSD cap will survive if you bend the rotor tang up.  For some reason, if you install the rotor out of the package it does not make contact to the carbon tip on the distributor cap.  Then the spark has to jump that gap, and it wears away the carbon electrode in the center of the cap.  Bend the tang on the rotor up so that it will make contact to the carbon tip and the problem should disappear.
Jay Brown
- 1969 Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner NA/BB, 511" FE (10.60s @ 129); Drag Week 2007 Runner-Up PA/BB, 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
- 1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA (9.50s @ 143), 585" SOHC
- 1969 Shelby Clone, Drag Week 2015 Winner Modified NA (Average 8.98 @ 149), 585" SOHC

   

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2018, 06:31:20 PM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

wowens

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 445
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2018, 07:38:10 PM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

Me too. Am I in trouble now.
Woody

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2018, 07:53:12 PM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2018, 08:14:29 PM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.
I've heard that before. Never experienced it, but heard it.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2018, 08:54:07 PM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.
I've heard that before. Never experienced it, but heard it.

Locked out timing is often OK at WOT.  How much timing are you applying at steady state, light throttle cruise and crowd accelerations?  With locked out timing the answer is either too much or not enough.  Vacuum advance adds a whole "nother" layer of tuning optimization to the equation.  Thats where rotor phasing can get really spiffy - you work with a sweep rather than a fixed position.  OEMs had this figured out a few decades ago...

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2018, 07:37:54 AM »
I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.
I've heard that before. Never experienced it, but heard it.

Locked out timing is often OK at WOT.  How much timing are you applying at steady state, light throttle cruise and crowd accelerations?  With locked out timing the answer is either too much or not enough.  Vacuum advance adds a whole "nother" layer of tuning optimization to the equation.  Thats where rotor phasing can get really spiffy - you work with a sweep rather than a fixed position.  OEMs had this figured out a few decades ago...
You're right Barry...none of the engines I build ever end up in customers cars or are ever driven on the street. I don't know what I was thinking.

machoneman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2018, 07:59:21 AM »
Well said Barry. Yes, one does leave mileage and more on the table otherwise. Funny, but there are zero drawbacks IMO to running a vacuum advance on all but the very hottest engines.   

I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.
I've heard that before. Never experienced it, but heard it.

Locked out timing is often OK at WOT.  How much timing are you applying at steady state, light throttle cruise and crowd accelerations?  With locked out timing the answer is either too much or not enough.  Vacuum advance adds a whole "nother" layer of tuning optimization to the equation.  Thats where rotor phasing can get really spiffy - you work with a sweep rather than a fixed position.  OEMs had this figured out a few decades ago...
Bob Maag

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4212
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2018, 09:04:17 AM »
Late to the game, but glad to hear Red figured it out with Faron's advice.  I have also seen a quick curve bounce right at idle, however your "all in at 2900" makes me wonder if you had once spring tab bent, or a wrong spring that left slack in the spring then let it initially jump and then slow the curve down.  Because 2900 is not a very fast curve.

That being said, to jump in the curve conversation, in the EFI world, ignition tuning is often as effective in drivability as fuel management.  I almost said MORE effective, but you can do some fancy stuff with injector timing and change street behavior.  Having ignition control by RPM, temp, load, and wide range of other inputs, can be dramatic when on the street, but almost have zero effect when you have your foot mashed to the cowl.  Although a street distributor will not have nearly the control, you do have RPM and load inputs through both advance mechanisms. Mileage is of course one benefit, but part throttle tuning is what makes you happy to take that ride in your hot rod with a coffee between your legs and/or roll on and light them up without being fussy. 

I agree with Barry's comment about rocker geometry.  You can go 200K miles with good build and stock or marginal rocker geometry, certainly doesn't mean ignore it.  Although this thread made me think a little about a locked out timing combined with ported manifold vacuum, another way to skin the cat, or a combo, sort of like an early Pontiac approach (very little mechanical and Q-jet ported vacuum to make up the difference (Behaves differently than a Holley ported source).  I don't think I like locked distributor with vacuum, but never tried it and I know I dislike the Pontiac approach as I just had to undo a mild 67 GTO and follow a traditional timing curve approach. 

I can't argue with anyone's success, but I would ask what the intended benefit of taking the curve away would be on a street strip car?  Seems to me if you are trying to get ahead of a slow burn, whether lean, chamber or cam induced, at varying loads or RPM you are going to have too much advance.

Red - As far as the rotor/button, Jay likely gave you the right answer.  I had a string of BBC/SBCs that a hot rod club in Vegas had the same issues. They ran Mallory stuff, but we had a run of a few that the rotor tang didn't contact the cap well.  Bent it up by hand to make the cap push it down, and they lived happy lives.  Almost too easy to fix, hope that is your issue.  However, I would add that plugs gaps too large, "power towers" and other things that introduce resistance will also contribute.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 09:11:50 AM by My427stang »
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2018, 09:39:56 AM »
You're right Barry...none of the engines I build ever end up in customers cars or are ever driven on the street. I don't know what I was thinking.
[/quote]

Not what I wrote.  At all.

Just because they drive OK does not mean that they are optimized.  Kinda like the millions of engines running down the road without a quarter inch thick spacer under the rocker stands.

WConley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
  • No longer walking funny!
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2018, 10:41:56 AM »
Gotta chime in here on timing.  If you're locked out, you are leaving a ton of part-throttle driveability and fuel economy on the table with a street car. 

It's all about maximum cylinder pressure and when it occurs.  At light loads, the flame front travels less energetically so you need to get it started earlier.  Otherwise you're still burning during the expansion stroke - wasted work.  The engine feels mushier and fuel economy takes a big hit.

If it wasn't important, the OEM's wouldn't spend money on developing spark timing maps.  Believe me, they hate to spend money on powertrain stuff.  They'd rather put it into things you check off on the options sheet...
A careful study of failure will yield the ingredients for success.

Barry_R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
    • View Profile
    • Survival Motorsports
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2018, 11:02:29 AM »
The bounce at idle is "for real" - you can sometimes see it at idle timing because the springs don't hold the mechanism in position.  One of my friends who is really into such things (distributor machine, and more electronic widgets than darn near anyone on this planet...) also says that the same deal can happen at high RPM when the deal bounces off the stops.  He wants to have the heavier springs and tweaks weight to allow a tiny amount of advance to continue throughout the entire power band so that the weights never bang of the limits.  Says that you have hysteresis in the electronics causing a delay so that an extra degree or two in the mechanical side won't hurt you.

Doing it all from ported works but not that well.  Brings back memories of the Holley "Load-a-matic" distributors found on some six bangers back in the 1960s.  The combination of mechanical for RPM variance coupled with vacuum for load variance gives plenty of "knobs and levers" to optimize timing within the limits of a mechanical system.  Cool EFI and electronic management allows us to do oddball stuff like reversed curves to compensate for cylinder pressure changes as intakes and exhausts come into tune - or around torque peak.

scott foxwell

  • Guest
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2018, 12:33:14 PM »
Well said Barry. Yes, one does leave mileage and more on the table otherwise. Funny, but there are zero drawbacks IMO to running a vacuum advance on all but the very hottest engines.   

I'm going to throw this out for reference, not necessarily as a suggestion, but I lock out the distributor on every engine I build and never have timing related starting issues. They all start with a hit of the key and the pump gas street motors run just fine under all conditions.

That's at least as wrong as incorrect valvetrain geometry.   Probably worse.
I've heard that before. Never experienced it, but heard it.

Locked out timing is often OK at WOT.  How much timing are you applying at steady state, light throttle cruise and crowd accelerations?  With locked out timing the answer is either too much or not enough.  Vacuum advance adds a whole "nother" layer of tuning optimization to the equation.  Thats where rotor phasing can get really spiffy - you work with a sweep rather than a fixed position.  OEMs had this figured out a few decades ago...
I'm not talking about a vaccum advance, after the fact...I'm talking about a curve in the distributor. I don;t disagree that for a street deal at part throttle, additional ignition timing can sure help efficiency. I've never found a benefit to a curve in the distributor other than for starting. In my experience, if you need to retard the engine to start it, there are other issues.

My427stang

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4212
    • View Profile
Re: Timing trouble....
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2018, 01:16:40 PM »
The bounce at idle is "for real" - you can sometimes see it at idle timing because the springs don't hold the mechanism in position.  One of my friends who is really into such things (distributor machine, and more electronic widgets than darn near anyone on this planet...) also says that the same deal can happen at high RPM when the deal bounces off the stops.  He wants to have the heavier springs and tweaks weight to allow a tiny amount of advance to continue throughout the entire power band so that the weights never bang of the limits.  Says that you have hysteresis in the electronics causing a delay so that an extra degree or two in the mechanical side won't hurt you.

Doing it all from ported works but not that well.  Brings back memories of the Holley "Load-a-matic" distributors found on some six bangers back in the 1960s.  The combination of mechanical for RPM variance coupled with vacuum for load variance gives plenty of "knobs and levers" to optimize timing within the limits of a mechanical system.  Cool EFI and electronic management allows us to do oddball stuff like reversed curves to compensate for cylinder pressure changes as intakes and exhausts come into tune - or around torque peak.

Amen brother...I still think that a curve that came in at 2900 though, to bounce at idle, must have too little static spring load.  2900 rpm curve holds them pretty tight, and if they were moving around at idle, the springs could be too long for the application or the tabs were bent in prior life

I'm not talking about a vaccum advance, after the fact...I'm talking about a curve in the distributor. I don;t disagree that for a street deal at part throttle, additional ignition timing can sure help efficiency. I've never found a benefit to a curve in the distributor other than for starting. In my experience, if you need to retard the engine to start it, there are other issues.

To me it isn't a starting issue.  In the pump gas world, too early too soon can ping.  There are band-aids but the engine doesn't need it to fire that early.  The Poncho I talked about is a 10:1, 280/280 224/230 iron headed stocker with headers and a relatively quick curve.  16 initial, 20 in the distributor, and it comes in about 2500.  That was the way the car showed up.  It has ported vacuum advance.  It'd rattle part throttle in 4th pulling a hill at 2200 or so.  If locked at 36, it'd rattle worse at that RPM.  As it is, I slightly slowed the rate ad it's pretty happy now

If it was a 4.11 car, with a loose converter, sure, you could do with less curve, but to get them cleaned up and happy all over town, I'd rather let the distributor help 
---------------------------------
Ross
Bullock's Power Service, LLC
- 70 Fastback Mustang, 489 cid FE, Victor, SEFI, Erson SFT cam, TKO-600 5 speed, 4.11 9 inch.
- 71 F100 shortbed 4x4, 461 cid FE, headers, Victor Pro-flo EFI, Comp Custom HFT cam, 3.50 9 inch