Engine build opinions

[Buckwheat]

I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine.  It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc.  The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets.  The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake.   I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system.  Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP?  I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup.  I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous.  The car will be driven, not a garage queen.  All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated. 

[cammerfe]

I put together a 390 that made 500 HP several years ago. It was .030 over, and used Dove F5 heads and the concomitant Dove 'spider' intake. I talked to the folks at Comp, requesting a solid roller cam that had the idle characteristics of the factory 'AA' (850 RPM) and matched the street driveability  of my bought-new '64 Custom/427. They spec'd a 242-248, .658-.666 on 110. I thought it seemed a bit much, but on the dyno, after 15-20 minutes, the idle fell right in line. It pulled hard to 7500 where it flattened out.

The heads were done as Jim Dove suggested, flowed +/- 235 on the intake side. We used a set of Ferrea 2.100/1.65 valves and matched to the intake, which was whittled about 2-3 inches inside before the casting was of a size that made further work unnecessary. On the dyno we used a known-good 850 Holley, and had the Holley EFI setting in a box ready to go on.

What you have in mind is certainly do-able but you'll need to make sure your components are all matched so as to properly work together. Good luck!

KS

[blykins]

I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine.  It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc.  The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets.  The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake.   I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system.  Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP?  I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup.  I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous.  The car will be driven, not a garage queen.  All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.

My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now.  I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp. 

A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver.  If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end.   With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do. 

Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower.  Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark. 

FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for.   His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft.  Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque.   With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks.  I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque.  He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.   

I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination.  Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.

[machoneman]

Say Brent, what is your guess on how much more hp (from cleaned-up iron heads or similar Edelbrock heads) our poster would get from BBM heads, mild clean-up, port match?

I recognize that the optimum cam, C/R, etc. may not be achieved here due to reluctance to pull the short block for decking, maybe higher c/r pistons, etc.. Still, perhaps he'd benefit more by the BBM's than the other heads.

 

I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine.  It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc.  The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets.  The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake.   I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system.  Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP?  I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup.  I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous.  The car will be driven, not a garage queen.  All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.

My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now.  I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp. 

A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver.  If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end.   With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do. 

Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower.  Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark. 

FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for.   His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft.  Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque.   With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks.  I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque.  He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.   

I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination.  Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.

[Buckwheat]

I don’t have power brakes.  I have a Wilwood 7-1 pedal manual setup with dual master cylinders, 7/8”  & 3/4” for front & rear, with 4 piston calipers all around.

[blykins]

Say Brent, what is your guess on how much more hp (from cleaned-up iron heads or similar Edelbrock heads) our poster would get from BBM heads, mild clean-up, port match?

I recognize that the optimum cam, C/R, etc. may not be achieved here due to reluctance to pull the short block for decking, maybe higher c/r pistons, etc.. Still, perhaps he'd benefit more by the BBM's than the other heads.

 

I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine.  It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc.  The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets.  The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake.   I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system.  Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP?  I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup.  I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous.  The car will be driven, not a garage queen.  All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.

My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now.  I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp. 

A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver.  If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end.   With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do. 

Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower.  Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark. 

FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for.   His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft.  Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque.   With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks.  I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque.  He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.   

I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination.  Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.

He'd make his 500 hp goal, I'm pretty confident.  However, it would change the look of the engine. 

[blykins]

I don’t have power brakes.  I have a Wilwood 7-1 pedal manual setup with dual master cylinders, 7/8”  & 3/4” for front & rear, with 4 piston calipers all around.

At what speed/rpm do you do most of your driving?

[Falcon67]

My 1/50 of a dollar - just remember I like 4.56 gears and 4000 stall as "street".  With the 3.89 and the manual, I'd push up the cam and see where you can get.  A little head work never hurts unless you get carried away and don't know what you're doing.  EFI is fine - but I'd put a dual Ed 600 setup on it and cam it up some. 

Like your brake selection - 69 doesn't need power brakes IMHO.  My wife races a 351C @ 460 HP 70 model with stock style manual brakes and doesn't have any issues.

[Buckwheat]

Driving speed will be all over the place. Track days, driving to work, cruise events etc. I am game on changing the cam and intake. I would rather not swap the heads or pull the rotating assembly unless I go with a Stroker kit. Brent, what cam would you recommend? I would rather stay hydraulic. Falcon, why the dual carb over EFI?

[blykins]

Flat tappet or roller?

[Buckwheat]

Yes.

[blykins]

A roller will cost you more as you will potentially need new valve springs, lifters, pushrods, and a distributor gear.....but there is no break-in involved. 

Do you know the compression ratio?

[Buckwheat]

Stock which is 10.6?  Heads and block were square decked during the build. I will pull a valve cover and to get details on the rocker and spring setup. I am not worried about a few hundred bucks, just don’t want to go crazy on it.

[blykins]

It will be more than a few hundred bucks. 

Just generalizing prices here for the sake of the forum, but a custom flat tappet cam with lifters would be around $320.  A custom hydraulic roller with lifters, valve springs, distributor gear, and pushrods would be around $1250. 

[Falcon67]

It will be more than a few hundred bucks. 

Just generalizing prices here for the sake of the forum, but a custom flat tappet cam with lifters would be around $320.  A custom hydraulic roller with lifters, valve springs, distributor gear, and pushrods would be around $1250.

That's a good guesstimate - I'm around $1500 for the solid roller with pressure oiling lifters, cam, springs.  But IMHO it's worth it to move off the flat tappet parts.